GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[IronTiger]

I lived Downtown for 7 years until a couple years ago, and it was a great comfort. It was good to grab a quick canned good or posterboard or whatever. The store continues to exist because there is an economic demand for it. Sorry, but Downtown just isn't ready for a Books-A-Million yet. Certain types of businesses can work and certain can't.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned this once, but this whole "Retail District Downtown" idea sounds a lot like what cities tried in the 1970s or 1980s to revive their dying downtown districts, either with glassy malls or pedestrian-only streets, and nothing worked. Best case scenario is that they ended up becoming glorified food courts (in fact, I'm sure that's what already happened to the Shops at Houston Center). The reason was that they were too difficult to get to, offered little what the existing malls in the suburbs didn't, and most importantly, weren't able to support their immediate neighborhoods. 

 

Downtown cannot support a full-sized department store, can barely support an outdoor mall of sorts, and can also barely support a supermarket. The nicer parts of the Inner Loop already have shopping districts like Lower Westheimer, Rice Village, the First Ward redevelopment, and others.

[j_cuevas713]

I'm pretty sure I mentioned this once, but this whole "Retail District Downtown" idea sounds a lot like what cities tried in the 1970s or 1980s to revive their dying downtown districts, either with glassy malls or pedestrian-only streets, and nothing worked. Best case scenario is that they ended up becoming glorified food courts (in fact, I'm sure that's what already happened to the Shops at Houston Center). The reason was that they were too difficult to get to, offered little what the existing malls in the suburbs didn't, and most importantly, weren't able to support their immediate neighborhoods. 

 

Downtown cannot support a full-sized department store, can barely support an outdoor mall of sorts, and can also barely support a supermarket. The nicer parts of the Inner Loop already have shopping districts like Lower Westheimer, Rice Village, the First Ward redevelopment, and others.

You do understand a lot of this has to do with the population living downtown right? With the immediate increase of people living in both downtown and midtown and with quick access via rail, this is far from some 70's attempt at a revival. 

Edited January 29, 2016 by j_cuevas713

[BeerNut]

You do understand a lot of this has to do with the population living downtown right? With the immediate increase of people living in both downtown and midtown and with quick access via rail, this is far from some 70's attempt at a revival. 

Don't forget about the college students riding rails to spend their student loans.

[Montrose1100]

Don't forget about the college students riding rails to spend their student loans.

Added Hotel rooms as well. The Houston Center Shops didn't work because they're on an isolated podium, servicing the office crowd like the tunnels. It will be interesting to see the HC's plan to correct this, which is completely the opposite of what they did when they built it.

[Moore713]

Another key difference is the eras you mentioned were the height of what some deem "White flight ".WhIle the 2000,s have seen a near reverse with many young people and empty nesters opting to leave their big suburban homes for lofts and townhouses closer to city cores.

[BigFootsSocks]

Mods I'd love a PM as to why you guys keep deleting my posts but let other mindless bs stay up. Y'all are so hypocritical smh

[IronTiger]

You do understand a lot of this has to do with the population living downtown right? With the immediate increase of people living in both downtown and midtown and with quick access via rail, this is far from some 70's attempt at a revival.

Of course it has to do with people living downtown. And yet, even the 2000s-era Houston Pavilions/GreenStreet, which does interact with the street level still struggles to attract retail space and converted it into office space. Even if downtown can support more retail, it may be a handful of stores (maybe a Target, if they're lucky). A full retail district is just going to end up looking like an embarrassment, especially if they start hyping it up like Dallas' Victory Park.

 

 

Don't forget about the college students riding rails to spend their student loans.

Wishful thinking. This is the type of "build it and they will come" mentality that doomed the centers of years ago. I don't know where U of H students go for general shopping, but I'll bet it's driving someplace more established. My cousin in law went to University of Houston, I'll ask her.

 

 

Added Hotel rooms as well. The Houston Center Shops didn't work because they're on an isolated podium, servicing the office crowd like the tunnels. It will be interesting to see the HC's plan to correct this, which is completely the opposite of what they did when they built it.

Hotels will probably make even less of an impact than apartment buildings.

 

Another key difference is the eras you mentioned were the height of what some deem "White flight ".WhIle the 2000,s have seen a near reverse with many young people and empty nesters opting to leave their big suburban homes for lofts and townhouses closer to city cores.

 

I'm pretty sure we've had the discussion before that the "young people moving to cities" was largely overhyped, and it was an older crowd moving to cities, but again, it just seems like a hard sell to justify all that to make a retail district. Did I say that downtown can't support more than convenience stores and fast foods? No. I just think a "retail district" just won't work given the amount of retail downtown and how it's done so far. You can make all sorts of excuses: "Future growth! The existing retail doesn't interact with street level enough! It's not the 1970s anymore, so therefore, it MUST work!", but that doesn't change the facts.

[Urbannizer]

@bryanjoneshtx via Instagram

[astros148]

Mods I'd love a PM as to why you guys keep deleting my posts but let other mindless bs stay up. Y'all are so hypocritical smh

 

why is no one responding to his post?

[Montrose1100]

Hotels will probably make even less of an impact than apartment buildings.

Still an impact... A positive impact.

[IronTiger]

Still an impact... A positive impact.

Yes, but my point is "lots of hotel rooms" still isn't a retail support, and even so, hotels already address demand themselves by having restaurants or stores with overpriced sundries.

[BigFootsSocks]

why is no one responding to his post?

Because in my pain-induced and pain killer driven stupor I acted like an ass. Appendicitis kiddos, it's not fun.

[Tumbleweed_Tx]

Ow, get well soon.

Had anyone else noticed the new LED street lights the City installed downtown? They provide so much more illumination than the old incandescent streetlights from before.

Also, at least on the HoB block, they are installing a ton of new work... errr... street lights as part of the new corridor. We shall not have to depend on the (expletive deleted) ice cream man's headlights for illumination anymore. ..lol

[Houston19514]

I'm pretty sure I mentioned this once, but this whole "Retail District Downtown" idea sounds a lot like what cities tried in the 1970s or 1980s to revive their dying downtown districts, either with glassy malls or pedestrian-only streets, and nothing worked. Best case scenario is that they ended up becoming glorified food courts (in fact, I'm sure that's what already happened to the Shops at Houston Center). The reason was that they were too difficult to get to, offered little what the existing malls in the suburbs didn't, and most importantly, weren't able to support their immediate neighborhoods. 

 

Downtown cannot support a full-sized department store, can barely support an outdoor mall of sorts, and can also barely support a supermarket. The nicer parts of the Inner Loop already have shopping districts like Lower Westheimer, Rice Village, the First Ward redevelopment, and others.

 

This post makes about as much sense as your ridiculous claims that a bridge carrying the traffic on the west side of downtown would be a "bridge to nowhere."

 

The only thing this plan has in common with the 70s and 80s revival attempts is that they both involve retail.

[monarch]

Because in my pain-induced and pain killer driven stupor I acted like an ass. Appendicitis kiddos, it's not fun.

 

^^^ you ain't heavy... you're my brother...

get well soon my good pal socks!

[hindesky]

[editor]

Mods I'd love a PM as to why you guys keep deleting my posts but let other mindless bs stay up. Y'all are so hypocritical smh

Just re-read the Terms of Service you agreed to when you signed up for HAIF.  It's in there.

[BigFootsSocks]

It's already been taken care of but thanks

[astros148]

Just re-read the Terms of Service you agreed to when you signed up for HAIF.  It's in there.

 

im sure alot of people must read those terms

[IronTiger]

This post makes about as much sense as your ridiculous claims that a bridge carrying the traffic on the west side of downtown would be a "bridge to nowhere."

 

The only thing this plan has in common with the 70s and 80s revival attempts is that they both involve retail.

 

I've just addressed the criticisms to my "bridge to nowhere" quote and I concluded that the term was too harsh.

 

However, please try to actually back up your claims that the retail district has little to do with "70s and 80s revival attempts" instead of resorting to insults. 

 

And no, I don't have an anti-downtown bias, if that's what you were suspecting.

Edited January 31, 2016 by IronTiger

[H-TownChris2]

Had taken a bunch of this yesterday, but the glare was so bad.

Will have a prominent view in the intersection of Leeland and Travis:

1.30 by Chris Rojas, on Flickr

[mollusk]

OK, I'll bite.

 

What's different is that in the 70s and 80s, downtown residential pretty much consisted of 2016 Main, Houston House, the old apartments across the park from the Toyota Center, and the Beaconsfield.  If the sidewalks could have been physically rolled up after 6 pm, they would have been.  By the early 80s, nearly half of the area inside the 10/45/59 ring was surface parking.  The Rice was no longer a hotel but hadn't been converted to lofts yet; its sidewalks reeked of urine as badly as any place downtown.  If memory serves, it was the first big residential development downtown since Houston House in the early 60s.  There's a bit more than that now and in the near future.

[IronTiger]

OK, I'll bite.

 

What's different is that in the 70s and 80s, downtown residential pretty much consisted of 2016 Main, Houston House, the old apartments across the park from the Toyota Center, and the Beaconsfield.  If the sidewalks could have been physically rolled up after 6 pm, they would have been.  By the early 80s, nearly half of the area inside the 10/45/59 ring was surface parking.  The Rice was no longer a hotel but hadn't been converted to lofts yet; its sidewalks reeked of urine as badly as any place downtown.  If memory serves, it was the first big residential development downtown since Houston House in the early 60s.  There's a bit more than that now and in the near future.

The parking lots were mostly from the failure of the original Houston Center, which was supposed to be a massive development with people-movers, buildings cantilevered over city streets, and a whole lot of other ambitious stuff. The demolition of nearly half of the buildings within the 59/45/10 ring was probably the single most damaging thing to downtown.

Now that I've gotten that off my chest, of course downtown has gotten leaps and bounds better in nearly all aspects, but I still don't think it's "there" yet based on the little retail that has been built not doing especially well (like GreenStreet/Houston Pavilions). I don't even know what the occupancy levels are like inside the residential apartments either (if it has 2000 units but only a quarter of them are filled, that makes a big difference!). Last I heard, Commerce Towers wasn't doing especially well (I could be basing that on out of date information), and even within the last two years, Humble Oil Building had converted the section of the building with loft apartments into a third hotel.

[Houston19514]

 

However, please try to actually back up your claims that the retail district has little to do with "70s and 80s revival attempts" instead of resorting to insults. 

 

 

Already did.  The only thing it has in common with the 70's and 80's attempts you reference is they both involve retail. 

 

But to spell it out for you: 

 

We are not closing any streets. 

We are not making the proposed retail spaces difficult to get to.

We are not building or proposing any glassy malls closed off from the streets and sidewalks.

We are not building any pedestrian-only streets.

 

Edited February 1, 2016 by Houston19514

[mollusk]

The parking lots were mostly from the failure of the original Houston Center, which was supposed to be a massive development with people-movers, buildings cantilevered over city streets, and a whole lot of other ambitious stuff. The demolition of nearly half of the buildings within the 59/45/10 ring was probably the single most damaging thing to downtown.

Now that I've gotten that off my chest, of course downtown has gotten leaps and bounds better in nearly all aspects, but I still don't think it's "there" yet based on the little retail that has been built not doing especially well (like GreenStreet/Houston Pavilions). I don't even know what the occupancy levels are like inside the residential apartments either (if it has 2000 units but only a quarter of them are filled, that makes a big difference!). Last I heard, Commerce Towers wasn't doing especially well (I could be basing that on out of date information), and even within the last two years, Humble Oil Building had converted the section of the building with loft apartments into a third hotel.

 

Houston Center was overly ambitious to begin with, then the 80s oil bust occurred, and then its developer was acquired and the development arm was sold off in order to focus on its primary business of gas pipelines.  However, as demonstrated by various buildings here and there hanging on for decades in the Parking District, those that Texas Eastern Transmission bought and then tore down weren't contributing much to the economy. 

 

Your information is a bit out of date on Commerce Towers.  While it took forever to sell out originally, according to the HAR website it has 8 units for sale and one for lease as of this morning, with 14 recently sold.  Someone else probably has a survey or something with more complete numbers, but just following the threads in this forum one gets the sense that only the really new stuff has significant vacancy.  Regarding the Humble Oil Building, there's been plenty of demand for more hotel rooms - which is also evidenced by the number of new hotels being built.

[Nole23]

FYI, Skyhouse currently has a 78% occupancy rate up from 40% last April. It was also the first new rental complex to open after One Park Place. It will be interesting to see how fast all of the others fill up once they are delivered.

[UtterlyUrban]

Houston Center was overly ambitious to begin with, then the 80s oil bust occurred, and then its developer was acquired and the development arm was sold off in order to focus on its primary business of gas pipelines. However, as demonstrated by various buildings here and there hanging on for decades in the Parking District, those that Texas Eastern Transmission bought and then tore down weren't contributing much to the economy.

Your information is a bit out of date on Commerce Towers. While it took forever to sell out originally, according to the HAR website it has 8 units for sale and one for lease as of this morning, with 14 recently sold. Someone else probably has a survey or something with more complete numbers, but just following the threads in this forum one gets the sense that only the really new stuff has significant vacancy. Regarding the Humble Oil Building, there's been plenty of demand for more hotel rooms - which is also evidenced by the number of new hotels being built.

I believe that commerce towers has lots of empty units. I don't know if they are finished or not, for lease or not, for sale or not, but they do seem to be empty.

[KinkaidAlum]

Humble Towers was 100% leased out with a months long waiting list. It wasn't flipped to a hotel because the model was failing. It's just that Spring Hill probably projected better revenue than the larger apartments.

 

One Park Place runs in the high 90% range with some of the highest PSF in the city.

 

The Rice and Hogg Palace rarely have any vacancies.

 

The smaller lofts (Hermann, Keystone, Bayou, etc..) sold out. Any units currently for sale are resales. 

[mollusk]

FWIW, my office was across McKinney and looked over the top of the McKinney/Main parking garage towards Commerce Towers for a number of years.  There generally seemed to be plenty of lights on over there once people got home for the day.

[Houston19514]

I believe that commerce towers has lots of empty units. I don't know if they are finished or not, for lease or not, for sale or not, but they do seem to be empty.

 

What do you base that on?