GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[livincinco]

I disagree. I think part of the reason Phoenicia has managed to do well is the fact that it's basically a "destination" grocery store. Even in Montrose I live closer to half a dozen grocery stores than to Phoenicia, but I'll still shop there because they offer something unique.

 

I think the trick is finding retail that is useful to people who live downtown but also attracts people from the surrounding neighbrohoods

 

I love Phoenicia but I'm not sure they are a good example of destination retail.  Mainly because I'm going to guess that a large portion of their profits are from MKT Bar and their lunchtime deli business.  That's really dining/entertainment revenue, not retail.  I think that they would have a much tougher go of it if they were trying to exist strictly on their grocery revenue.

 

I get your point though.  Phoenicia is reasonably unique and other than heading out to their location on the West Side, you're really not going to find anything comparable in the city.  Phoenicia could have picked a dozen locations inside the loop and been successful.

 

There's very little retail that can expect that kind of draw.  Basing expectation on drawing from the population in the immediate neighborhood is a much safer bet.

[Howard Huge]

This is not about attracting "suburbanites" to shop downtown. While they might make up part of the mix of shoppers, this is about providing a district in the heart of the city for the growing number of people who live, work, and visit downtown. Ground floor retail and retail that is open on the weekends is sorely lacking downtown. As the new (and not even announced yet) residential towers and mid-rises get built, as the rail lines are completed, as the new hotels are completed, as the convention center expands and new and bigger conventions are added, as the East End and Midtown fill in, as Buffalo Bayou continues to be transformed and becomes even more of an attraction, etc, there will be more and more reasons for downtown to need retail. In its current state, downtown will not be able to meet that need. A little planning for current and future needs would go a long way.

Just look at Market Square's revival. Most people seemed to write it off as dead forever just a few months ago. Then the little park that many said would always just be a homeless hangout was rebuilt. Things change, cities change; Houston is finally starting to change in ways that many of us probably hoped it would a long time ago.

Couldnt have said it better myself!

It annoys me to no end when I read endless comments from suburbanites puffing their chests out and speaking down to us from their high horses, "What a waste of taxpayer money! I never go downtown! No matter what they build I will NEVER go downtown unless they provide more parking!" Blah blah blah, etc etc......

GUESS WHAT GENIUSES! THESE PROJECTS ARENT MEANT FOR YOU, AND THE DEVELOPERS ARENT HOPING TO LURE YOU OUT OF THE WOODLANDS TO DRIVE 40 MINUTES TO FIND A PLACE TO PARK AND VISIT THE SCANT RETAIL DOWNTOWN!

......Like largeTEXAS pointed out, this infrastructure is all being put in place for the people who are already downtown for one reason or another (i.e. they live there or they are at DG, George R Brown, staying at a hotel downtown or working downtown) and with residential and hotel construction downtown on the upswing it is a fact that the demand for more retail is going to grow.

/rant

Ugh, it's like the anti-rail people with the same argument: "I love my car so I would NEVER use these trains, therefore NO ONE ELSE will ever use them either."

Edited September 19, 2013 by Howard Huge

[monarch]

I think that Iron Tiger's original point though is about the type of retail that is desired.  I agree with his point that high end retail is not particularly desirable downtown.

 

I agree with most posters that downtown retail should not be destination retail.

 

...oh really?  Just whom are your "most posters"?  I moved to Houston from Beaumont, TX during the early 80's right out of high school.  As a means to help support myself through college, I worked contractual jobs throughout the downtown region.  I for one, can openly assure anyone...that downtown retail was a dire need then....and most definitely is today.

 

If I could not find any needed items within the downtown district, then I would head over to the Galleria.  

 

Anyone remember the old, magnificent, and very different from today's Abercrombie and Fitch?  This boutique was located within the then newly built Park Shops?  That place was perfect....and hands on service was incredible...albeit a bit expensive.  Downtown Houston retail establishment's have dried up considerably.  I now thank God for new and incredible establishment's like "Phoenicia".  This  place is fast becoming a major player.  Anyone and everyone should try one of their delicious meals that they serve within their hot deli....upon any given day or night.  

 

You are a great Haif poster my good pal "livincinco".  But I think that maybe you have been "livinincinco" a bit to long....

 

The time for Downtown Houston is NOW!  Just build it... and I can assure you that they will come.  Trust me, I shall be the first in line....Monarch  

 

 

[livincinco]

...oh really? Just whom are your "most posters"? I moved to Houston from Beaumont, TX during the early 80's right out of high school. As a means to help support myself through college, I worked contractual jobs throughout the downtown region. I for one, can openly assure anyone...that downtown retail was a dire need then....and most definitely is today.

If I could not find any needed items within the downtown district, then I would head over to the Galleria.

Anyone remember the old, magnificent, and very different from today's Abercrombie and Fitch? This boutique was located within the then newly built Park Shops? That place was perfect....and hands on service was incredible...albeit a bit expensive. Downtown Houston retail establishment's have dried up considerably. I now thank God for new and incredible establishment's like "Phoenicia". This place is fast becoming a major player. Anyone and everyone should try one of their delicious meals that they serve within their hot deli....upon any given day or night.

You are a great Haif poster my good pal "livincinco". But I think that maybe you have been "livinincinco" a bit to long....

The time for Downtown Houston is NOW! Just build it... and I can assure you that they will come. Trust me, I shall be the first in line....Monarch

It really entertains me to see the level of assumption that is made just based on the name "livincinco".

I'm all in favor of continuing development in downtown and I wish all kinds of success to the continuing retail and residential development in that area. I applaud your enthusiasm, I just don't think that it's realistic. You are absolutely correct that retail dried up in downtown Houston. That's been an ongoing trend in cities across the country for 40 years or more and there's really no sign that is reversing in any kind of significant way.

Look around Houston and other comparable cities, urban renewal is bringing increased restaurant and entertainment, but it's not driving significant retail growth. Pavilions is a perfect example. It was pretty successful in picking up restaurant and entertainment tenants, but had a pretty horrible track record with retail tenants.

Downtown needs a strong base of "neighborhood" retail - a Target, a CVS, an HEB, and other conveniences for residents way more than it needs an Apple store.

[j_cuevas713]

Lol why did my post get removed? Give me a break!

[Tumbleweed_Tx]

CVS is at Main and Walker, closes at 7  

 

Pavilions is turning itself inside out on Dallas St (all the restaurants except HoB will have outdoor seating). Part of the trouble they will have is that their maintenance corridors are along Dallas St and Polk St

(the Pavilions new name is as offensive to me as that four letter word they keep trying to attach to the East End...lol)

[monarch]

[Subdude]

Good point. Destination retail is always great, if you can get them downtown. But, to build a truly sustainable retail district, all kinds of retail is necessary. 

 

True enough.  I think it will take a basic retail infrastructure for residents to be in place first though.  The thing is, if you polled downtown residents on what retail they would like to see, my guess would be it would include humdrum things like:

• cleaners
• convenience store / gas station
• good grocery store
• Walgreens
• Target
• hardware store
• Starbucks
• pizza chain

I worry thought that this isn't what the Downtown District has in mind, even though they haven't said exactly what kind of retail they want.  I suspect that instead of the above they are, consciously or not, wishing to attract the kind of retail targeted at that ever-elusive marketing sweet spot: people who are both stylish and wealthy.  Trust-fund hipsters as it were.  I would feel better about the idea if it were more clear what the retail goal was.

[Subdude]

Hopefully they can do this without the crass ads on the sides of buildings.

 

 

I think that the large ads are pretty much a standard rendering design element/cliche for retail spaces.  Sort of like the searchlights aimed at the sky for skyscrapers, or rooftop gardens. 

[Slick Vik]

I love Phoenicia but I'm not sure they are a good example of destination retail. Mainly because I'm going to guess that a large portion of their profits are from MKT Bar and their lunchtime deli business. That's really dining/entertainment revenue, not retail. I think that they would have a much tougher go of it if they were trying to exist strictly on their grocery revenue.

I get your point though. Phoenicia is reasonably unique and other than heading out to their location on the West Side, you're really not going to find anything comparable in the city. Phoenicia could have picked a dozen locations inside the loop and been successful.

There's very little retail that can expect that kind of draw. Basing expectation on drawing from the population in the immediate neighborhood is a much safer bet.

I eat at phonecia 4-5 times a week. A lot of people that come for lunch also end up buying retail goods as well. And a big reason why they do so well is because of the location. I don't think they would draw such a big lunch crowd in any other location.

[Slick Vik]

It really entertains me to see the level of assumption that is made just based on the name "livincinco".

I'm all in favor of continuing development in downtown and I wish all kinds of success to the continuing retail and residential development in that area. I applaud your enthusiasm, I just don't think that it's realistic. You are absolutely correct that retail dried up in downtown Houston. That's been an ongoing trend in cities across the country for 40 years or more and there's really no sign that is reversing in any kind of significant way.

Look around Houston and other comparable cities, urban renewal is bringing increased restaurant and entertainment, but it's not driving significant retail growth. Pavilions is a perfect example. It was pretty successful in picking up restaurant and entertainment tenants, but had a pretty horrible track record with retail tenants.

Downtown needs a strong base of "neighborhood" retail - a Target, a CVS, an HEB, and other conveniences for residents way more than it needs an Apple store.

I agree it needs the neighborhood retail to make it easier for the people that do live there and possibly want to live there. At the same time sayin you think something isn't realistic just because you say so is disingenuous.

[largeTEXAS]

True enough.  I think it will take a basic retail infrastructure for residents to be in place first though.  The thing is, if you polled downtown residents on what retail they would like to see, my guess would be it would include humdrum things like:

• cleaners
• convenience store / gas station
• good grocery store
• Walgreens
• Target
• hardware store
• Starbucks
• pizza chain

I worry thought that this isn't what the Downtown District has in mind, even though they haven't said exactly what kind of retail they want.  I suspect that instead of the above they are, consciously or not, wishing to attract the kind of retail targeted at that ever-elusive marketing sweet spot: people who are both stylish and wealthy.  Trust-fund hipsters as it were.  I would feel better about the idea if it were more clear what the retail goal was.

 

I'm sure the Downtown District has visions of grandeur not unlike most developers when envisioning what could be - Apple, Urban Outfitters, Anthropologie, etc. But, you're probably right that more basic retail is more likely right now. The Sakowitz building was built for large scale retail, even if it's currently a parking garage. To me, that's the one opportunity to get a big anchor retailer such as H&M, Target, or something of the sort. If the new building where Foley's was has ground floor retail (and it better!), that corner should be the center of the retail action, at least early on. 

[livincinco]

I agree it needs the neighborhood retail to make it easier for the people that do live there and possibly want to live there. At the same time sayin you think something isn't realistic just because you say so is disingenuous.

 

Actually, I can pretty much say that I don't think something is realistic for any reason that I want.  I stated what I clearly identified as an opinion, but I'll expand anyway.  Let's use LA as an example.  LA has created a pretty vibrant population downtown, but it really hasn't generated retail in that process.  LA Live has become a major draw strictly based on entertainment and restaurant venues.  They recently launched a retail center that I think is very much in line with the kind of development that would work well in Houston - Fig at 7th which is anchored by Target and Sports Chalet (comparable to Academy) along with an upscale food court. 

 

[H-Town Man]

True enough.  I think it will take a basic retail infrastructure for residents to be in place first though.  The thing is, if you polled downtown residents on what retail they would like to see, my guess would be it would include humdrum things like:

• cleaners
• convenience store / gas station
• good grocery store
• Walgreens
• Target
• hardware store
• Starbucks
• pizza chain

I worry thought that this isn't what the Downtown District has in mind, even though they haven't said exactly what kind of retail they want.  I suspect that instead of the above they are, consciously or not, wishing to attract the kind of retail targeted at that ever-elusive marketing sweet spot: people who are both stylish and wealthy.  Trust-fund hipsters as it were.  I would feel better about the idea if it were more clear what the retail goal was.

 

If they just take I-10 a couple miles west, they have a lot of this, including the Target. I agree there needs to be a 24 hours Walgreens or CVS downtown. But some things you simply forego if you want a downtown lifestyle. In fact, it's part of the lifestyle for certain things to be a little less convenient. Like if you walk through Near North Chicago among all the condo towers, there aren't a lot of hardware stores. 

[Nate99]

I just wish there was a place downtown that served breakfast all day.

 

An omelet would be great for lunch.

 

I'd recommend that House of Pies open up a shop in the new Marriott, but it would end up charging inflated hotel food rates.

[Slick Vik]

Actually, I can pretty much say that I don't think something is realistic for any reason that I want.  I stated what I clearly identified as an opinion, but I'll expand anyway.  Let's use LA as an example.  LA has created a pretty vibrant population downtown, but it really hasn't generated retail in that process.  LA Live has become a major draw strictly based on entertainment and restaurant venues.  They recently launched a retail center that I think is very much in line with the kind of development that would work well in Houston - Fig at 7th which is anchored by Target and Sports Chalet (comparable to Academy) along with an upscale food court. 

 

There is a lot of low level retail that you're choosing to ignore as well.

[Subdude]

 

But some things you simply forego if you want a downtown lifestyle. In fact, it's part of the lifestyle for certain things to be a little less convenient. Like if you walk through Near North Chicago among all the condo towers, there aren't a lot of hardware stores.

 

I should think part of the attraction of living in a downtown area would be the convenience of being able to do a lot without needing to drive far, not that convenience ought to be foregone.  Hence the point about what kind of retail Downtown District should be seeking.

 

 

[livincinco]

There is a lot of low level retail that you're choosing to ignore as well.

Not at all. His discussion is centered around a government planned district. Low level retail should develop organically without government involvement as a response to market demand. As I've stated in other threads, I believe that low level retail will develop in downtown Houston once there is a sufficient population to support it. In my opinion, CoH is doing the right thing in that area - incentivize residential and let the market provide the retail once sufficient demand exists.

That being said, I think that a Fig At 7th type development would be great in downtown and would be worth incentives, but this looks like this is more of a push to create a Michigan Ave type of environment.

Edited September 20, 2013 by livincinco

[Slick Vik]

Not at all. His discussion is centered around a government planned district. Low level retail should develop organically without government involvement as a response to market demand. As I've stated in other threads, I believe that low level retail will develop in downtown Houston once there is a sufficient population to support it. In my opinion, CoH is doing the right thing in that area - incentivize residential and let the market provide the retail once sufficient demand exists.

That being said, I think that a Fig At 7th type development would be great in downtown and would be worth incentives, but this looks like this is more of a push to create a Michigan Ave type of environment.

Fair enough, but how come you do not feel the same way about suburbs? At one time, there was no such thing as a thirty year mortgage. Banks did not want to give out thirty year loans, which makes sense. However, once the government stepped in via the creation of the FHA which insured loans, then banks were pushed to offer them. Is this organic growth? I don't think so. You make a good point but stay consistent.

[livincinco]

Fair enough, but how come you do not feel the same way about suburbs? At one time, there was no such thing as a thirty year mortgage. Banks did not want to give out thirty year loans, which makes sense. However, once the government stepped in via the creation of the FHA which insured loans, then banks were pushed to offer them. Is this organic growth? I don't think so. You make a good point but stay consistent.

That is completely unrelated to this thread.

[htownproud]

i agree that living in a downtown environment means giving up easy access to a wide variety of things.  Usually you are only in easy walking distance of one grocery store, and in general those stores are much smaller than the huge grocery stores most Houstonians are used to.  You can walk to perhaps two convenience stores, but again they are much smaller.  And it's a super pain to try to go to a place like Target or Home Depot.  

 

Of course in return, you can walk to most everything you need to get by and there is a vibrant interaction with the City and your neighbors.  That said,I think that most people (not all) like the wider selection of goods and easy access to them, which is why cities like Houston and similar cities are growing much faster than the dense urban centers (and in particular, why the suburbs and near suburbs in these cities are growing).  

[Trae]

lol second.. if this block takes off ... dallaites will never let us hear the end of it...

It's okay...Houston street in Dallas already looks like this.

[Houston19514]

^ Houston Street in Dallas looks like what??

[H-Town Man]

Houston St. in San Antonio is pretty nice.

 

 

[towerjunkie]

They Should develop southern downtown as a essential retail district with all the target and what not mentioned above then work on Dallas St. 

They should also develop southern downtown with more residential and some parks. 

[cloud713]

They Should develop southern downtown as a essential retail district with all the target and what not mentioned above then work on Dallas St.

They should also develop southern downtown with more residential and some parks.

Check out the new downtown development PDF from September. It's posted a few threads down. 2 new parks in southern downtown and quite a dew lots slated for residential.

[fatesdisastr]

Bump

 

 

Someone needs to get an updated picture of the progress. Any takers? I might be able to get out there this weekend so I will try.

[Tumbleweed_Tx]

there hasn't been much progress due to the rain... they put some pipes in under the old courtyard, that's about it

[Triton]

 

 

 

 

 

Blurry:

 

 

[Sky-guy]

What's been going on with this lately? Has anything progressed?