GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[Nick_G]

Thanks for the post from someone who has lived there, Andrew. I have fought the stereotyping of Downtown for years. I went to school downtown in the 80s, officed there in the 90s and 00s, and have conducted business in downtown for the last 16 years. I have even owned and operated a restaurant in downtown. Invariably, the whining and carping about the "dangerous homeless" population comes from people who neither live nor work downtown. After 7 years of posting on this forum, I know well that no matter how much information is given, and no matter how many resources are devoted to downtown, there will still be those who freak out at the site of a homeless person.

There is really nothing one can do to stop it. A large segment of the population lives in suburban, largely segregated areas, and will never be comfortable amongst those who look different from themselves. The only "urbanity" that they can handle is the faux urban areas built in the suburbs, such as Sugar Land Town Center and Woodlands Market Street. That is fine. I wish them no ill will for that preference. What annoys me is when they venture into downtown and criticize it for not being as sterile and segregated as the faux urban areas they prefer. Some of the complaints even come from people who never come downtown at all! The 'I never go downtown because...' crowd are the worst.

I try to ignore the misinformation posted by the occasional visitors from the clean, new and orderly parts of town. But, then the misinformation and hyperbole begin, and once again I rush to downtown's aid. I do not particularly care that the poster or the moderators think I am bullying. It is more important that a forum that is read as often as this one not be full of uncontradicted misinformation and exagerations from those who cannot handle buildings and sidewalks over 10 years old. So, I respond. Sometimes I even point out that the only time I have been robbed was in Rice Village, not downtown.

Some people simply need to look in the mirror and admit that they are not cut out for downtown living or recreation. It's OK. Downtown will survive without them. Houston Pavilions, maybe not.

I actually appreciate your defense of downtown, it was the manner you went about it that was the issue. I made observations and because I was frustrated I posted them. I still believe you have the wrong impression of me, not that I am not partially at fault for that, as I jumped blindly into a forum world that has been around for a long time and you have been a part of for a long time and started off with a subject that is obviously a bit sore. There is a "why do you lurk" thread somewhere on this site and that would be a good reason to do so. Truth be told I have never even really read a forum before. One comment that was meant to be an insult that you made a few days ago but actually (unlike most of what you have tried to pin on me) is true is that I do lack the historical perspective of someone who can remember the city 30 years ago. I would say that goes for pretty much anyone under 34. It would be great if you could provide that historical perspective without attempting to insult me at every turn in the process. I am sure I am not the only one on this board or reading it that would find it useful.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Nick_G

[TheNiche]

One comment that was meant to be an insult that you made a few days ago but actually (unlike most of what you have tried to pin on me) is true is that I do lack the historical perspective of someone who can remember the city 30 years ago. I would say that goes for pretty much anyone under 34. It would be great if you could provide that historical perspective without attempting to insult me at every turn in the process. I am sure I am not the only one on this board or reading it that would find it useful.

In fairness, you joined the forum and launched a barrage of non-specific whining over issues that everyone acknowledges exist, and did so without bothering to look for previous threads on the subject from which you might learn a thing or two. (I'm not going to go look them up for you, even if you ask nicely. Data retreival for anonymous individuals is not my purpose in life.) Once it was pointed out what you were doing, you felt insulted. I don't know why. The replies you were getting seemed to have substance, even if they took on a frustrated tone. Then you started reporting us to moderators and getting on-topic content containing substance deleted from the forum. From my perspective, it seems like you've let your personal insecurities regarding age or experience (or whatever) overwhelm your better judgement. You're taking it out on us and the content that we devoted our time towards. You want to talk about what's insulting? That's insulting!

Want a better relationship with the folks on this forum? Take a step back. Realize that it isn't personal (and shouldn't be). I don't know you. I don't know most of the people on this forum, but I seem to interact more effectively with them. If something issaid that makes you feel insecure, realize that you may be getting presented with an opportunity to grow and adapt. And if you think about it objectively, and it really and truely seems uncalled for, then maybe I'm off my rocker. Maybe I'm making a bad joke. Whatever the case, if it is uncalled for then there's no reason to feel offended; that would be my problem, not yours.

[Nick_G]

Then you started reporting us to moderators and getting on-topic content containing substance deleted from the forum.

Others reported you, I have not reported one post you have made, was not even aware that was an option until the moderator jumped in. Actually, nothing you said was that insulting and quite a few things made me laugh.

The two weeks or so I have been here I have only reported one post in total and that was made by RedScare after posts were already being deleted and things calmed down when I felt he was just trying to get a rise out of me and I had already gotten the point.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Nick_G

[Pumapayam]

um...hey...so anyone going out this weekend, socialize and chat, maybe bar hopping or play a round of bowling while at the Houston Pavillions...I heard it was in trouble...you know the topic of the thread.

Or maybe you can go here, I heard it's a great place to socialize and chat as well.

#sigh

Edited February 3, 2012 by Pumapayam

[RedScare]

Others reported you, I have not reported one post you have made, was not even aware that was an option until the moderator jumped in. Actually, nothing you said was that insulting and quite a few things made me laugh.

The two weeks or so I have been here I have only reported one post in total and that was made by RedScare after posts were already being deleted and things calmed down when I felt he was just trying to get a rise out of me and I had already gotten the point.

Well, I will give you credit for trying. And, you took your lumps pretty well also. Unlike the petty poster above, whose sole purpose on the forum is to snitch other posters out (note that he calls himself an unofficial moderator, since he isn't a real one), you actually try to post something worth reading. Niche and I welcome you to stick around. Just remember that spirited debate is not personal, but appreciated by us. Snitches, on the other hand, we'd just as soon go back where they have been. We haven't missed them much, and won't miss them again.

[samagon]

bowling at HP is not for serious.

my friend and his faience went after it opened, excited to bowl without having to drive across hell's half acre to go bowling. They rolled their roller bags with balls and shoes to the door guy and were almost turned away because my friend had a baseball cap on (he just took it off instead of leaving).

lanes are about 5' short of regulation, so if you expect a hook, well, it ain't gonna happen.

point is, they should just turn off the score monitors and maybe make the computer for inputting names like a drink ordering station or something.

[Andrew Broadfoot]

Thanks for the post from someone who has lived there, Andrew. I have fought the stereotyping of Downtown for years. I went to school downtown in the 80s, officed there in the 90s and 00s, and have conducted business in downtown for the last 16 years. I have even owned and operated a restaurant in downtown. Invariably, the whining and carping about the "dangerous homeless" population comes from people who neither live nor work downtown. After 7 years of posting on this forum, I know well that no matter how much information is given, and no matter how many resources are devoted to downtown, there will still be those who freak out at the site of a homeless person.

There is really nothing one can do to stop it. A large segment of the population lives in suburban, largely segregated areas, and will never be comfortable amongst those who look different from themselves. The only "urbanity" that they can handle is the faux urban areas built in the suburbs, such as Sugar Land Town Center and Woodlands Market Street. That is fine. I wish them no ill will for that preference. What annoys me is when they venture into downtown and criticize it for not being as sterile and segregated as the faux urban areas they prefer. Some of the complaints even come from people who never come downtown at all! The 'I never go downtown because...' crowd are the worst.

I try to ignore the misinformation posted by the occasional visitors from the clean, new and orderly parts of town. But, then the misinformation and hyperbole begin, and once again I rush to downtown's aid. I do not particularly care that the poster or the moderators think I am bullying. It is more important that a forum that is read as often as this one not be full of uncontradicted misinformation and exagerations from those who cannot handle buildings and sidewalks over 10 years old. So, I respond. Sometimes I even point out that the only time I have been robbed was in Rice Village, not downtown.

Some people simply need to look in the mirror and admit that they are not cut out for downtown living or recreation. It's OK. Downtown will survive without them. Houston Pavilions, maybe not.

I can tell you truthfully I have only lived in downtown for a few years. I lived in between the garden district and downtown New Orleans in the early 90's so I guess I can say I was already accustom to panhandlers and bums (even on the nice street I was on). When I moved back to Houston in the mid 90's I spent a lot of time in Midtown and Downtown and I can attest that it has cleaned up nicely since then. Personally, the only place I would even consider staying away from in Houston (even during the day and on foot) would be the Greyhound bus station. I also frequent NYC and am used to being on foot most of the time as I usually take the subway the whole time.

Since 2000, there has been quite a revitalization in Midtown/Downtown. A lot of people have moved in and the place is getting better all the time. As far as future residents, It will have to model towards singles and couples that don't have children as well as people moving from other major metropolitan areas.

So... For the people that are scared of Downtown, be scared, less of a wait for me at dinner time!

[Nick_G]

bowling at HP is not for serious.

my friend and his faience went after it opened, excited to bowl without having to drive across hell's half acre to go bowling. They rolled their roller bags with balls and shoes to the door guy and were almost turned away because my friend had a baseball cap on (he just took it off instead of leaving).

lanes are about 5' short of regulation, so if you expect a hook, well, it ain't gonna happen.

point is, they should just turn off the score monitors and maybe make the computer for inputting names like a drink ordering station or something.

I've only been inside once for about 30 seconds looking for a happy hour menu as I am no bowler but if what you say is true maybe part of the problem is the execution of the vendors. Everything I have heard about Lucky Strike bowling sounds a little bit off and that is taking up a pretty sizable block of HP.

[kylejack]

bowling at HP is not for serious.

my friend and his faience went after it opened, excited to bowl without having to drive across hell's half acre to go bowling. They rolled their roller bags with balls and shoes to the door guy and were almost turned away because my friend had a baseball cap on (he just took it off instead of leaving).

lanes are about 5' short of regulation, so if you expect a hook, well, it ain't gonna happen.

point is, they should just turn off the score monitors and maybe make the computer for inputting names like a drink ordering station or something.

For reals? What a silly decision.

[TheNiche]

Others reported you, I have not reported one post you have made, was not even aware that was an option until the moderator jumped in. Actually, nothing you said was that insulting and quite a few things made me laugh.

The two weeks or so I have been here I have only reported one post in total and that was made by RedScare after posts were already being deleted and things calmed down when I felt he was just trying to get a rise out of me and I had already gotten the point.

Okay then, I owe you a retraction and apology on that point. It seems that my frustrations are better directed at those whom feel insulted on behalf of third parties. I'm not entirely clear how to reason with such a person, but if I might ask a favor...if you ever see that kind of dynamic playing out again, please help me to make it clear to moderators that you're cool with it. They can't seem to tell the difference.

That is all. Now back to our regularly scheduled program...

[largeTEXAS]

Thanks for the post from someone who has lived there, Andrew. I have fought the stereotyping of Downtown for years. I went to school downtown in the 80s, officed there in the 90s and 00s, and have conducted business in downtown for the last 16 years. I have even owned and operated a restaurant in downtown. Invariably, the whining and carping about the "dangerous homeless" population comes from people who neither live nor work downtown. After 7 years of posting on this forum, I know well that no matter how much information is given, and no matter how many resources are devoted to downtown, there will still be those who freak out at the site of a homeless person.

There is really nothing one can do to stop it. A large segment of the population lives in suburban, largely segregated areas, and will never be comfortable amongst those who look different from themselves. The only "urbanity" that they can handle is the faux urban areas built in the suburbs, such as Sugar Land Town Center and Woodlands Market Street. That is fine. I wish them no ill will for that preference. What annoys me is when they venture into downtown and criticize it for not being as sterile and segregated as the faux urban areas they prefer. Some of the complaints even come from people who never come downtown at all! The 'I never go downtown because...' crowd are the worst.

I try to ignore the misinformation posted by the occasional visitors from the clean, new and orderly parts of town. But, then the misinformation and hyperbole begin, and once again I rush to downtown's aid. I do not particularly care that the poster or the moderators think I am bullying. It is more important that a forum that is read as often as this one not be full of uncontradicted misinformation and exagerations from those who cannot handle buildings and sidewalks over 10 years old. So, I respond. Sometimes I even point out that the only time I have been robbed was in Rice Village, not downtown.

Some people simply need to look in the mirror and admit that they are not cut out for downtown living or recreation. It's OK. Downtown will survive without them. Houston Pavilions, maybe not.

So curious what restaurant you owned downtown, RedScare?! I've worked with quite a few restaurants and retailers downtown over the years; I wonder if we've run into each other. Actually, on second thought, maybe it's better we stay anonymous

I agree with much of your post. There are a ton of suburban-only-minded people in this city and on this forum that can't, or choose not to, get comfortable with the idea of true city living. Nick_G, as most have us seem to have acknowledge by now, does not seem to be one of those people. Quite the contrary. I really appreciate the energy he brings to this discussion and to the effort to revitalize downtown.

I'm speaking only for myself here, but I think for a lot of us who have worked/lived/put our blood, sweat, and tears into downtown over the years, it is difficult to read posts that are critical of downtown and that don't acknowledge the accomplishments it's made over the years. (Downtown and Houston have actually frustrated me to such a great extent at different points that I've fled to live in other cities. But, I keep coming back. Partially because it's home, but mostly, I think, because there is something exciting about this city and the potential it has to be great).

I think there is a tendency to get overly-protective of downtown, especially in discussions about how it could be improved, and lose sight of what is really being said. Even though I might not agree with their reasons for staying away, people still avoid downtown like the plague. Downtown still suffers from the inability to draw the numbers of people it needs to establish a "critical mass" to become a sustainable live/work/shop/play/eat type of environment.

As much as downtown has improved over the years, it simply has not become the inviting or comfortable destination for many or most Houstonians and visitors. In order to achieve that, I believe there has to be something special, exciting, and different about it. Discovery Green is a great start. So, but to a lesser extent, are the sports venues. I was sure hoping the Pavilions would be the thing that generated enough activity to gel that section of downtown, and then create a ripple effect. Whoops. It's a shame the Pavilions isn't overlooking Discovery Green. Then, I think it might actually start attracting small retailers interested in the throngs of people circulating through the park.

My point is, I think there are actually some really wonderful ideas and insights in this thread. I think it would be a mistake to write them all off, even if many of them are veiled in barely intelligible rants.

[Nick_G]

I appreciate the vote of confidence and I can only assume the barely intelligible rants bit was toward me, to that, I'm working on it, multitasking has never been a strong suit.

So, but to a lesser extent, are the sports venues.

81 Astros home games are played every year. Ever been to one of the home games when say the Red Sox come to town? It's embarrassing, there are more Red Sox fans there than Astros fans so anyone who feels passion for Houston should go to Astros games just so people know what city they are in (looks around at everyone on this site). They are actually a lot of fun anyway, and cheaper this year (see thread in Sports and Stadia).

Back to the point, 81 days of the year there is the possibility of 40,000 plus people being in downtown specifically for entertainment. That is a huge potential that we are not fully capitalizing on. I think a stronger push to coordinate events like public shows to both promote the Astros and get people to do something other then just walk to their car before and or after the game would be huge.

Here is another place where the commuter rail would be ideal as well, as after the game people can sober up on the train on their hour journey back to the Woodlands.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Nick_G

[RedScare]

There is actually a lot more potential than 81 baseball games, and frankly, there are a lot more people downtown on a regular basis than any of us give credit for. Including pre-season and special events, Minute Maid Park is open up to 90 times per year. Toyota Center has Rockets, Aeros, concerts and events for 200 days per year. The new Dynamo Stadium will have 20 home games plus TSU football and concerts, adding 30 or more events annualy. The GRB has events virtually all of the time (unknown number). And, the theater district has events several times per week. And, of course, downtown supports the usual 175,000 weekday workers.

So, there is not really a shortage of people venturing downtown for work or events. The "problem" is that, because these events occur in different parts of downtown, and the restaurants and bars are located in other parts, it appears that no one is there. There is also the simple fact that, since professional sports games are longer than in the past, many people simply go home afterward. They are tired, or have work or school the next morning. This is not downtown's fault.

What the complaints generally involve is the lament that there is not one central place to go in downtown to see crowds of people. You can see crowds near Minute Maid before a game, or crowds near Toyota before a game or event. But, people want to see crowds walking in and around the bars and restaurants on Main Street. Well, those bars and restaurants are poorly located to take advantage of the sports crowds. And, it is expensive (and risky) to build new buildings around a stadium that only has 90 events per year. Really, only residential population will provide the foundation to keep these bars and restaurants open and spur new ones. And, that is a slow process. Downtown's popul;ation has grown 50%, but the predictions were 300%. The housing and mortgage crash did not help at all.

The city and TIRZ groups are doing what they can. 3 stadiums have been built downtown. Streets and sidewalks have been rebuilt. Parks have been renovated or created. More is in the works. But, until the residential population expands there is a ceiling on how much retail will grow. It is what it is.

Note to largeTEXAS: I owned Firehouse Philly's over on Prairie. Hubcap Grill is there now. We were making progress in expanding seating and the menu, but my business partner checked out only 3 months after opening, leaving me to run two businesses simultaneously. When he made other demands a year later, it became clear that I could not continue the business under those conditions, and was forced to shut it down. There are a few mentions of my place here on HAIF. In fact, that is how I found HAIF, googling my restaurant to see if anyone was talking about it. They were! So much so, that we won a Houston Press 'Best of' award.

[scarface]

a little off the recent posts:

I really don't see what everyone is getting so huffy about. The Niche states that the o/p came and launched a barage of this and that!

The o/p doesn't like downtown. Is that so wrong? I'm from Houston born and raised and after visiting other cities, I think our downtown pretty much sucks, although getting better, still has a long way to go. With the recent closings and everything off Main such as Cabos, El Rey, and a few clubs that have died over the years, i have gotten a little skeptical over downtown. Still remain hopeful though!

Edited February 4, 2012 by scarface

[Nick_G]

a little off the recent posts:

I really don't see what everyone is getting so huffy about. The Niche states that the o/p came and launched a barage of this and that!

The o/p doesn't like downtown. Is that so wrong? I'm from Houston born and raised and after visiting other cities, I think our downtown pretty much sucks, although getting better, still has a long way to go. With the recent closings and everything off Main such as Cabos, El Rey, and a few clubs that have died over the years, i have gotten a little skeptical over downtown. Still remain hopeful though!

I am not sure what o/p is but if you are referring to me I actually do like downtown, and again if you are talking about me am really confused why everyone is taking it like I said I didn't. I have made suggestions on how it could be improved but that by no means says I don't like it, if I didn't like it I wouldn't care.

[LarryDierker]

o/p = original post or original poster.

It is a refrence to the first post of a thread or the person that made the first post.

[Tumbleweed_Tx]

a little off topic...

Gertner's Sky Bar is now open

[livincinco]

Interesting article from The Atlantic about the homeless problem in downtown areas.

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/design/2012/02/can-prettier-parks-solve-san-franciscos-homelessness-problem/1129/

[tierwestah]

a little off topic...

Gertner's Sky Bar is now open

On the contrary my illustrious friend...

This post was actually the most "on topic" post in a while.

[Houston19514]

a little off the recent posts:

I really don't see what everyone is getting so huffy about. The Niche states that the o/p came and launched a barage of this and that!

The o/p doesn't like downtown. Is that so wrong? I'm from Houston born and raised and after visiting other cities, I think our downtown pretty much sucks, although getting better, still has a long way to go. With the recent closings and everything off Main such as Cabos, El Rey, and a few clubs that have died over the years, i have gotten a little skeptical over downtown. Still remain hopeful though!

Why so much focus on a couple failures in a very high-risk business? In the very recent past, two grocery stores with cafes have opened downtown plus another new club/restaurant (Scott Gertner's). I'm probably missing some recent openings.

[samagon]

I've only been inside once for about 30 seconds looking for a happy hour menu as I am no bowler but if what you say is true maybe part of the problem is the execution of the vendors. Everything I have heard about Lucky Strike bowling sounds a little bit off and that is taking up a pretty sizable block of HP.

from everything I've heard, people are still going, and enjoy the place. it's just not the place to go if you're downtown and looking for a bowling alley that has a league night, it's a social event kind of place.

I actually appreciate your defense of downtown, it was the manner you went about it that was the issue. I made observations and because I was frustrated I posted them. I still believe you have the wrong impression of me, not that I am not partially at fault for that, as I jumped blindly into a forum world that has been around for a long time and you have been a part of for a long time and started off with a subject that is obviously a bit sore. There is a "why do you lurk" thread somewhere on this site and that would be a good reason to do so. Truth be told I have never even really read a forum before. One comment that was meant to be an insult that you made a few days ago but actually (unlike most of what you have tried to pin on me) is true is that I do lack the historical perspective of someone who can remember the city 30 years ago. I would say that goes for pretty much anyone under 34. It would be great if you could provide that historical perspective without attempting to insult me at every turn in the process. I am sure I am not the only one on this board or reading it that would find it useful.

a very reasonable response. it's hard to convey concepts over the internet, invariably (as seems to happen over and over again, indeed even in this thread) someone will key in on something that someone said, it may not have been the main point, or even something really meant to be said, it totally ends up twisting the subject into something it shouldn't be. anyway, if you're a reasonable person you won't last long on the internet, it's filled with crazed lunatics who quote wikipedia as gospel, and attack you at every page refresh. Be liberal with emoticons is all I can recommend.

I'm sure you've gained a bit of perspective through this thread regarding the history of downtown (at least for the past 30 years) best I can figure ... 2 guys landed on the shores of allen parkway, told tales of giraffes and elephants. People came, they didn't leave and downtown became a pretty busy place for a while. Energy crisis. Then there were only tumbleweeds through the late 90s, which were replaced by clubs that dealt x, and once those clubs were shut down, the little woodrows chain opened on every corner to sling beer as an upscale dive bar to accommodate the people who can barely afford to drink because the rent is so high at post midtown. I may be missing a detail or two, but that's how it went down.

everything aside, I actually have to admit that I prefer downtown the way it is currently. There's enough people hanging around that don't feel like it's a ghost town, and yet it doesn't have a ton of people driving around, after work it turns into my own personal playground and I can ride around on my bicycle for days not concerned that there are so many cars on the road that someone is going to get pissed that they have to share it with me. I have this vision in my head that if I lived in the galleria area and tried to ride my bike, someone would see me walking out my door with my bicycle in tow, drive right over the yard to run me down before I even had the chance to lock my house.

Edited February 6, 2012 by samagon

[Daniepwils]

Well they kept up many residents in our building Saturday night... windows and beds were shaking... I am not sure how this will turn out...I couldn't sleep until 2am... Even with earplugs in and pillows on my head.

[lockmat]

Well they kept up many residents in our building Saturday night... windows and beds were shaking... I am not sure how this will turn out...I couldn't sleep until 2am... Even with earplugs in and pillows on my head.

How long has it been open?

[Daniepwils]

How long has it been open?

The weekend when the Texans had their first playoff game I believe. But they had a few soft openings before that as well.

[infinite_jim]

Why not use the draconian sound ordinance while you still can?

[Fringe]

Has Scott gone heavy metal on us?

[Daniepwils]

He actually called me last night and left a message. I was at the gym so I missed the call. I was surprised to have received a voicemail from him personally. He asked that I email him, since it is easier for him to communicate that way (and better to have things in writing I guess )

[Daniepwils]

Why not use the draconian sound ordinance while you still can?

I don't think it is draconian at all. Noise pollution is out of control. If anything it needs to be enforced more, and the fines should go up after numerous occurrences.

[kylejack]

I don't think it is draconian at all. Noise pollution is out of control. If anything it needs to be enforced more, and the fines should go up after numerous occurrences.

You don't think it is draconian to have a noise ordinance which is not based on any objective decibel standard? How is that fair?

[Daniepwils]

You don't think it is draconian to have a noise ordinance which is not based on any objective decibel standard? How is that fair?

We had that, it never worked, because very few police officers had the equipment to read it, and even when they did it wasn't calibrated correctly, or so it could be contested in a court of law. If you can hear the noise from inside your home and so can a police officer, then the noise is too loud. If the person who has the loud noise refuses to turn it down, then yes, they should be fined. Everyone is entitled to a peaceful home. Sorry if that offends anyone, just the way I see it.