GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[Nick_G]

Nick,

After several days, you still seem oblivious why so many have "attacked" your posts. I'll do my best to explain without insulting you. You have repeatedly claimed that downtown needs to be "developed", as if the billions of dollars invested in downtown in the last 12 years do not count. You want more parks, even though over $100 million has been spent building or renovating several downtown parks, including Discovery Green, Root, and Market Square. Even Harris County made a park out the jury assembly area by the courthouse complex. You ignore that in the last 12 years, virtually every street and sidewalk in downtown's busiest areas has been repaved, new signage has been installed, and numerous buildings have been renovated.

What seems to jump out of your posts is that you and your girlfriend are bored when you go downtown...except, of course, when strangers talk to you. You mentiuon that your friends don't want to come downtown. But, you often talk of how great uptown is. It pretty much screams at us that you and your girlfriend and friends are not appreciative of old beauty, but are much more impressed with shiny, new things. That is fine. Living in Uptown is the perfect location to experience shiny new things. Downtown is not. Furthermore, downtown will never be. Downtown is 176 years old. Uptown is 40.

Rather than demand that downtown change to suit your tastes, perhaps you should appreciate downtown for what it is. As for the homeless, well, Kinkaid is right. You should grow a pair. Downtown is the safest district in the city. White flight is a well known phenonenon from the 50s through the 80s. The attitudes and fears that caused white flight do not disappear overnight. There is only so much that can be done to assuage the mostly imagined fear of the homeless and other non-professionals you might encounter downtown. Besides, some of enjoy watching the people downtown much more than we do watching people in a suburban mall.

One last thing. The things you appear to be wanting when you say downtown should be "developed" are residences and entertainment to occupy you. I could point out all of the entertainment downtown that you appear to be missing, but I know that what you really want are bars, clubs and restaurants. You should keep in mind that these are private endeavors. The city does not provide them. As such, private individuals must pony up the cash to open and run them. Downtown has competition from several areas, all within a few miles. Midtown, Washington, Montrose, and even East downtown all compete with downtown. They have more residents and lower rents. It is not reasonable to expect these things to jump to a critical mass overnight. This is not the city or downtown's fault. It is just the way the business operates.

RedScare, thank you for this post. I came on this forum to have actual discussions and conversation like this and not to be constantly attacked for what it is incorrectly perceived I am saying. If someone is confused of what I said simply ask what I mean don't jump to conclusions.

As for liking shinny new things, I do but I also appreciate history and love the architecture of downtown (most of it anyway). I said two negative things, and those are the things that everyone seems to hang onto. The fact of the matter is I did not get on here to make up stories about being harassed in downtown. I thought it would be an appropriate place to voice frustration. To the comment about me needing to grow a pair, I am willing to bet that few of you would move someplace if it meant going against a direct request of someone you have been with for 5 years.

I did not blame anything on downtown and I acknowledged that we were talking about the illusion of safety and not actual safety. The illusion of safety however should not be ignored as most things in life have a great deal to do with perception.

And moving on.

I know that downtown has improved greatly and I came on this forum because it is my opinion that Houston should focus more on the inside the loop areas. We are out paving the Katy prairie and at least half the people I talk to hate the trains. I disagree with both of these and am looking for like minding people. I think cheap reliable public trains should be available to the majority of the population and I would gladly pay higher private property taxes to allow for this. I do not think we should tax industry in any way that would hamper growth, but when you get past a certain house price I believe the tax rate on those houses should increase significantly. If you don’t want to pay the higher rate, don't buy a 10,000 sq foot McMansion.

I know that bars and restaurants are private endeavors and need private investors. What I would like to see is the city encouraging private investment downtown with tax incentives and continued public projects. The first post I made in this thread was a link to the convention center district plans and I said that if shops close down in the pavilion they will open back up. I also think we should add tourist attractions to bring money in from outside the metro area. If there is interest I would be happy to start a thread about the best ways to do this but it is not appropriate for this thrad.

Finally, for this post at least, I think that instead of continually spreading out or attempting to spread out the Houston city limits to include areas like the Woodlands we should look back into the center of the city. I am betting a lot of you agree with that, if not I would like to know why.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Nick_G

[Texasota]

Nick_G,

I really appreciate your commitment to staying active and involved in both this forum and your neighborhood. It's certainly true that this city needs that sort of dedication to ensure that future development is largely positive. I completely agree with you on the issue of the trains- I think the University line's link from UH to the Galleria will be vital, and additional lines to better connect the inner loop neighborhoods will *hopefully* follow reasonably soon after.

What I have a hard time with is the idea that Uptown, of all neighborhoods, should serve as a positive example of urban development. Is it *relatively* dense, by the standards of this city? Yes. Is it, by virtue of proximity and well-maintained sidewalks, relatively walkable? Yes. It has in place a variety of advantages that, in the long run could help make it a very pleasant, walkable, upscale neighborhood, but it is a very difficult neighborhood to like. It has zero local character- when people call it a suburban version of downtown its partially because of the dominance of national chains. The fact that everything is contained in a strip center doesnt help. A better example of genuine walkability would be what's happening in Midtown, particularly on the West side. Rebuilt sidewalks, mixed use buildings, and a surprising variety of local businesses have started to really revitalize Midtown without completely destroying what was already there. Milam is still pretty much Little Saigon, and the renovation work on HCC will help beautify the neighborhood while maintaining support for people of a variety of income levels.

I guess my point is: Uptown does not represent *my* Houston. Messy sidewalks with exposed powerlines may not be pretty, but they don't equal "third world."

[Nick_G]

I guess my point is: Uptown does not represent *my* Houston. Messy sidewalks with exposed powerlines may not be pretty, but they don't equal "third world."

Before this gets taken up by the mob, I do not really think midtown equal's "third world" in fact I almost moved there and it remains one of the areas that are on my radar for purchase. If you are interested, Uptown(I feel like i have to apologize for this one) along the Bayou in either Rice Military (along Memorial Drive) or Montrose are the others. No idea if Regent Square will ever get built but if there were high rise condos or townhouses near there I would be interested. I do wish the power lines were buried though and have had discussion outside this forum about it where people refuse to want to spare any additional income to improve the city we live in. Again, I am coming here with a lot of pent up frustration.

Midtown is definitely up and coming and there are a lot of really good projects coming down the line.

On a side note, I agree about the chain restaurants in Uptown and have complained about that many a time. You just have not yet heard it. Other things I don't like about uptown so people do not think I think its this perfect world, half the residential high rises are the ugliest buildings knows to man. Uptown only 90% buried the powerlines which leaves that last 10% looking extra crooked and pretty pathetic, like we didn't finish the job (that brilliance by the way was a "great" idea from center point who boasts that it saved uptown money... kinda like not painting the roof of the car because its harder to see and claiming it was a great deal). My number one complaint, we are cut off from the center of the city by River Oaks. The University line was supposed to go into Uptown but it does not, River Oaks blocked it, it now goes to the pedestrian community of Bellaire.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Nick_G

[Pumapayam]

Nick_G,

I really appreciate your commitment to staying active and involved in both this forum and your neighborhood.

I agree with Texasota, and very happy that the more senior/veteran members are not running Nick_G off. He remind me of me back in the day. . . You will figure out that people on here are very polarizing about their neighborhoods and debates can get colorful.

On topic.

As long as the HP can manage to keep it's anchor stores, and hang in there until those latest and greatest convention hotel come to fruition and the pair of rail lines get complete within the next two years, it will get better. The completion of the Dynamo Stadium will have minimal effect. This is about as bad as it will get.

HP can only go up from here.

[Mister X]

Don't worry, NBC Sports will chase off those annoying, drugged up, smelly pan handlers. They will probably have to delocate to the Galleria parking garage to set up camp.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Mister X

[Pumapayam]

Don't worry, NBC Sports will chase off those annoying, drugged up, smelly pan handlers. They will probably have to delocate to the Galleria parking garage to set up camp.

I noticed they only mentioned covering Rockets and Astros games when the move into the HP...surprised they left out Dynamos.

[TheNiche]

I know that downtown has improved greatly and I came on this forum because it is my opinion that Houston should focus more on the inside the loop areas. We are out paving the Katy prairie and at least half the people I talk to hate the trains. I disagree with both of these and am looking for like minding people.

...

Finally, for this post at least, I think that instead of continually spreading out or attempting to spread out the Houston city limits to include areas like the Woodlands we should look back into the center of the city. I am betting a lot of you agree with that, if not I would like to know why.

Define "we". I live in the Museum District, not the Katy Prairie. I am not "they". The only local jurisdictional overlap I have with "them" is Harris County, and even then, most of "them" would rather move out of my county than to my neighborhood if the choice were forced. Which should be just as well, because (if you sincerely want progressive property taxation and more light rail) I suspect that you'd rather that "they" elect "their" own government officials rather than yours.

Live and let live, dude. If you want people to be more like you, you have to understand that it is their choice. You can't force them. They have to come to your way of thinking.

[Nick_G]

Define "we". I live in the Museum District, not the Katy Prairie. I am not "they". The only local jurisdictional overlap I have with "them" is Harris County, and even then, most of "them" would rather move out of my county than to my neighborhood if the choice were forced. Which should be just as well, because (if you sincerely want progressive property taxation and more light rail) I suspect that you'd rather that "they" elect "their" own government officials rather than yours.

Live and let live, dude. If you want people to be more like you, you have to understand that it is their choice. You can't force them. They have to come to your way of thinking.

Sincerely want progressive property taxation and absolutely more light rail.

As for the me coming off as an irredeemable snob (which I do not agree with but I guess that's neither here nor there as clearly the community came to a different conclusion), I have read what have to be your comments on Swamplot and you come off as a condescending prick, but for some reason people, myself included, still like you.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Subdude

[samagon]

I never said uptown is more walkable then downtown and i am growing tired of people putting words in my mouth. The one thing I said about walkability in uptown is that is arguably one of the more walkable areas of the city, which i stand by. I walk up and down Sage, Post Oak, to Memorial Park to bars in Uptown Park to the Randalls on San Felipe and to the mall to go shopping. I park my car on the weekend and don't get back in it until I have to commute again on Monday.

I made the comparison, I never said that you had. Sorry for writing it in such a way as to create that misunderstanding.

I also stand by my statement the galleria sucks for walking compared to areas inside the loop, specifically downtown, and especially when you include public transportation as part of the 'walking experience'.

To the point about the police, there are a cluster of transients in uptown on the corner of post oak and all I said was there are typically police officers at that same corner.

Things I have said.

and homeless usually target cars by standing at or in intersections, that's because there are more cars. the point is though, the homeless are no more likely to commit violence in downtown than they are in the galleria. annoying, yes. smelly, yes. reason to not live in or around downtown, no.

pro tip, they will always be here, no matter how well it is developed.

I want downtown to be developed and it makes sense to me to develop a central area. I like the trains. i like going to Astros games. I want to be able to walk to bars after Astros games with a group of friends and walk home after. My favorite local pizza is Frank's. My favorite park is Buffalo Bayou Park. I think the convention center district plans are good. I want more green areas in downtown. I would live in downtown if it was more developed and I think that all attractions in uptown which bring people in on the weekends should be in downtown to give the city more life after hours.

no problem, I get that, you also missed my point about downtown is in the process now, and if you compare it with 10 years ago, or 30 years ago, you'd see that it may be too soon for your taste, but downtown is becoming a place for people to live.

There's people who will jump in as it is being developed, or after it is developed. you're obviously one of the latter. there's nothing wrong with that.

The two negative points that everyone seems to be hanging onto, my girlfriend and I get harassed in downtown, which is true (and I am familiar with downtown and I still walk there usually by myself on the weekends) and that I have trouble getting other people to go to downtown with me with is also true.

Is it a sin to want downtown to be more developed and that I would live there if it was?

it certainly isn't a sin to want that.

there's an old saying I like using at times like this: wish in one hand, shit in the other, and tell me which one is full.

what it means is, you can wish all you want, but it isn't going to make things happen, move downtown, be part of the reason it draws development, they aren't going to make downtown any more livable than it is without more people willing to live there. Hell, you don't have to live downtown, you can easily make it in midtown, you're close enough to downtown to use some of their facilities which would still help drive development. either way, sitting in the galleria area and wishing downtown was more livable isn't going to make it more livable.

as far as putting the car away on the weekends, I go a step farther, I drive to work, I drive home. Unless it's raining I do everything else on a bicycle, or on my feet, or if I want to go farther than the local grocery store, I hop on the motorcycle.

and I live on the east side of town, about 3 miles outside of downtown, it's only 10 minutes by bicycle.

[Mister X]

y'all should be nicer to each other. There's not much difference between a snob and prick. I wish the homeless, the snobs and the pricks would all just go away and find somewhere else to panhandle, discriminate and/or annoy. NBC Sports is going to take care of the whole lot of you. Well, maybe not the pricks since they already employ so many.

[kylejack]

The two negative points that everyone seems to be hanging onto, my girlfriend and I get harassed in downtown, which is true (and I am familiar with downtown and I still walk there usually by myself on the weekends) and that I have trouble getting other people to go to downtown with me with is also true.

Is it a sin to want downtown to be more developed and that I would live there if it was?

Let me teach you a simple word called "No."

I live downtown and walk to the train station every day. "Hey, can I have a quarter?" "No." Not lies about I don't have any cash on me or ignoring them, I simply say No. And they leave me alone, because there's always someone else coming along. They don't harass me, they ask me a simple question and I give them a simple answer.

You need to get over this notion that a certain class of people aren't allowed to speak to you. It's a free country.

Now you say harassment: Harassment is a crime, and if what they are doing is actually harassment rather than simply asking for money then you need to file a police report.

Edited January 24, 2012 by kylejack

[Subdude]

There have been a whole series of reports today about posts that are inane, attacking others, or both.

Keep it on topic, and take a few minutes to check out the forum rules. If you can't abide by them, then don't post.

[samagon]

samagon, I too have been lobbying Critical Mass to ride through the Galleria area. PM me an let's join forces in persuading them.

How nice would it be to ride with 2,000 other riders down Westheimer to Post Oak, stop for a moment, and then head north on Post Oak!

I gave up on CM about a year ago.

It got way too stupid, I spent a great deal of time concerned with people riding their bicycle erratically and not paying attention to the other cyclists around them. The other problem I have with it is (and actually this comes with a story from the last ride I did) a small number of people in the group not only didn't obey simple rules of the road, but did everything in their power to try and make motorists angry. The story that goes along with that is that the particular ride was going up telephone to make a stop at UH, there are 2 lanes in each direction. About 15 people were riding into oncoming traffic (like 2 cars), this emboldened others to join in. soon, the entire roadway both directions was taken over by bicycles, oncoming traffic had to pull over, or run into a cyclist. The purpose of CM is to help make people aware of cyclists, all I was seeing CM accomplish was creating a larger divide than already exists between cars and cyclists.

So actually, I mispoke, I haven't interacted with CM in about a year, but when I did I pushed for galleria rides. Yeah, I support the theory of CM, and want to see people in cars be more conscientious, but I won't participate in those large rides.

[TheNiche]

There have been a whole series of reports today about posts that are inane, attacking others, or both.

Keep it on topic, and take a few minutes to check out the forum rules. If you can't abide by them, then don't post.

Am I restricted from this thread? I've written out three diplomatically-worded responses to the post deletions, and it seems that all of them have been deleted. Do I need to start a new thread about this?

[Pumapayam]

Am I restricted from this thread? I've written out three diplomatically-worded responses to the post deletions, and it seems that all of them have been deleted. Do I need to start a new thread about this?

.

I would blame it on SOPA and PIPA Niche, and yes, you can start a new thread, as I am sure your response, and mine will get deleted.

Definitely off topic

I

So actually, I mispoke, I haven't interacted with CM in about a year, but when I did I pushed for galleria rides. Yeah, I support the theory of CM, and want to see people in cars be more conscientious, but I won't participate in those large rides.

For those that don't know exactly what you are referring too, can you expand. Are you talking about transportation between galleria and downtown?

[rsb320]

Isn't this supposed to be about Houston Pavilions??? That's why I clicked on it.

Oh well.

[RedScare]

Isn't this supposed to be about Houston Pavilions??? That's why I clicked on it.

Oh well.

It was until some dude derailed it with stories about homeless people and his love of the Galleria.

[rsb320]

It was until some dude derailed it with stories about homeless people and his love of the Galleria.

Okay then, back to the "actual" topic. By city ordinance, panhandlers are not allowed to ask more than once for anything. Believe it or not, they know this and abide by it.

[samagon]

For those that don't know exactly what you are referring too, can you expand. Are you talking about transportation between galleria and downtown?

Sorry.

As someone else pointed out (and I actually have been saying the same thing too) Kirby is kind of a the outer limits for safe cycling on roads as you go west in Houston. Yeah, you can do it, but I wouldn't consider it as safe. Hostile is certainly one word I would use for it, dangerous is another. Basically, the farther west you travel, the denser the car population, and the more erratic and self serving they become.

Riding around in downtown, midtown, montrose, east end, museum district, and others on a bicycle people are very aware of cyclists, and usually they are courteous and share the road well.

the galleria, it's a great place to start spreading some real awareness in an area where it needs awareness to be spread.

although, as I mentioned in a previous post this morning, some of the things done on CM need to change.

[Nick_G]

Sorry.

As someone else pointed out (and I actually have been saying the same thing too) Kirby is kind of a the outer limits for safe cycling on roads as you go west in Houston. Yeah, you can do it, but I wouldn't consider it as safe. Hostile is certainly one word I would use for it, dangerous is another. Basically, the farther west you travel, the denser the car population, and the more erratic and self serving they become.

Riding around in downtown, midtown, montrose, east end, museum district, and others on a bicycle people are very aware of cyclists, and usually they are courteous and share the road well.

the galleria, it's a great place to start spreading some real awareness in an area where it needs awareness to be spread.

although, as I mentioned in a previous post this morning, some of the things done on CM need to change.

You guys should do this, we need all the help we can get.

[Pleak]

Disappear for a couple of days and threads can really take off....

Redscare

First, as far as homeless treatment, I am not part of the group who just does not want to see them. I am also however not someone who thinks handouts are the correct response either. Don't imply you know who I am, I do not know you but I am not for anarchy as your photo would imply.

Second, you say my opinion can stay in Uptown. I beg to differ, you would like more people in downtown. I am one of the people who wants to live in downtown, wants it to be a thriving environment, and would benefit from living in downtown to reduce my commute. If you look at my other posts in this thread, I was saying that the Pavilion will benefit from the new convention center and that if stores close down they will reopen. If you look at my other posts throughout this forum, I am making suggestions to improve downtown and to bring tourism money in.

We are having a discussion about what causes people not to live there. I am giving you an example of why two people do not live there and that is the lack of feeling safe, whether it is justified or not. Truth be told anything can happen anywhere, it is the illusion of safety that people flock to. You of course can have your opinion that homeless do not cause people not to live downtown. I am saying that it is a big reason I currently do not live there, combined with the lack of downtown patrols and a community feeling.

People should not try to plan to improve downtown? Really??

That statement is ridiculous. Downtown needs to compete with every community in the metro area for residents. The areas that are growing the fastest are areas that are planned. We can plan a downtown area, we need to and actually we are now. If we are being honest, everything in Uptown from the high end shopping to the restaurants to Williams tower should be in downtown but it is not, and the reason is because Houston was not planned to force that.

We have to ask the question why to people leave at 5. That is not the problem, that is the symptom. Downtown needs to compete with every growing metro area within 2 hours of the city in every category, entertainment, shopping, restaurants and yes the illusion of safety.

I gave you a clear reason why i do not live there. I have in other post suggested ways to improve the city and make it more attractive for more people.

What are your ideas?

Planning will not force people to live downtown and neither will exterminating the homeless.

The homeless do not scare off most people except the for the clueless or the spineless. I worked downtown for years. The homeless are not terrible monsters that are lurking to drag you beneath the sewers and feast on your bones. If you have never been to the big city before, perhaps they are intimidating when they ask for spare change, but to the vast majority of the people downtown they are completely ignored.

People do not live downtown because better alternatives are available. Yes, people could be "made" to live downtown. We could have land use regulations so tight that Houston is basically limited to an inside the loop footprint or smaller. And I know that's a wet dream for many on here. But one of two things would result. Either, Houston would be much smaller and a lot of the benefits that we have of living in a city of 5 million would not exist (How about that art scene in Lubbock?) or cost of living would be on par with New York, Tokyo, etc.

But since Houston was not planned, and has no real geographical limitations (i.e. NY, Hong Kong,), why would a person pay more to live downtown when a reasonably comparable property can be acquired outside of downtown. Yes, you are not living in a 40-story condo in dt, but what is fundamentally different in a 6 story building in mid-town? You might have a 1-2 mile more commute which is negligible and less stairs to walk down when the elevator breaks, but other than the hit to your bank account - what is the difference? Developers (i.e. - people who actually have to put their money where their mouth is) know this and guess where they are building.

Houston is attractive to people for exactly these reasons. It is an inexpensive place to live where you can get a good job and live in more housing than you can get in most any other metro area in the US for the same price. People tend to like that. That's why Houston is steadily growing these past few years while other places have been feeling the pain.

As for the miracles of planning. How about throwing a billion $ or so at downtown. Seems tohave worked for well for Buffalo...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204409004577156603296740624.html

I am not making the rules, just expressing frustration.

The most "famous" homeless man in Uptown has one leg, so not so intimidating. Sit's right over by Neiman's on Post Oak. Some of the others play musical instruments, which I guess also decreases their fear factor.

In all seriousness, there are cops usually standing at that corner of Post Oak in addition to the uptown patrol cars that drive around and I think there are a recognizable 5 to 10 that frequent that area. If you head down Post Oak and into the Uptown Park bars and restaurants you rarely see any and that's where we end up going out.

As for this

have you been there?

Yeah, I know the "famous" one-legged homeless man. Hits me up every day for money on my way to the bus stop. He knows parts of exactly 3 songs that he repeats ad nauseum except at Christmas time when he expands his playlist a bit. He ran off the guy in the wheelchair a while back with no legs. He can be a mean ol cuss. There are about six other regulars at that bus stop. Interestingly enough, the only police I have ever seen there was the one time they were chasing a pair of shoplifters out of Nieman's onto Post Oak. Bit of live C.O.P.S. entertainment as they were climbing over cars to get away. Guess the cops are closer down to Westheimer.

Yeah - and my comment about the Spring Chickees at the Galleria - well aware of them. Worked in a building attached to the mall for 4 years. Can't avoid them. That was my point - all the scary homeless in front of Neiman's, and on Westheimer won't deter a suburbanite from an after-Christmas sale at Abercrombie & Fitch - why on earth would it scare them from getting lit at a club downtown?

[ricco67]

Dealing with downtown homeless isn't a big deal at all. I've been in downtown enough to know most of the pitches, sad stories, scams, etc.

if one of them even says a word other than "good morning," I just say "no." and move on.

If you don't have the guts to deal with a bum who just wants "fifty cents" for the bus, then you need to seriously grow a spine.

Usually, my sympathy goes to the ones who just sit there and mumble to themselves and look dejected who are NOT asking for a handout.

Yeah, I know who those guys are as well.

[Nick_G]

Pleak, you make a lot of very good points, I have just a few discussion pieces.

People do not live downtown because better alternatives are available. Yes, people could be "made" to live downtown. We could have land use regulations so tight that Houston is basically limited to an inside the loop footprint or smaller. And I know that's a wet dream for many on here. But one of two things would result. Either, Houston would be much smaller and a lot of the benefits that we have of living in a city of 5 million would not exist (How about that art scene in Lubbock?) or cost of living would be on par with New York, Tokyo, etc.

I was not talking about forcing anyone to live anywhere. What I meant was that "attractions" like the high end shopping and the restaurants that follow it being downtown would mean there were more people there after hours. As you are familiar, the galleria mall is pretty quite during working hours and picks up to its heaviest use on the weekends. Something like that would complement the working crowd of downtown well, and attract the hotels and residential areas that go along with it. The cost of living might be much higher in downtown itself but as the city is extremely spread out, I believe the most spread out large city in the country if not the world (if someone knows where we really rank I would be interested) I think most areas would still be pretty affordable. That is the bit of planning I was talking about. If you remove uptown (yes where I live), which is outside the loop from the Houston metro area you would also probably have the businesses that are there spread throughout the other business centers and some additional downtown and the area would most likely resemble Bellaire.

As for the miracles of planning. How about throwing a billion $ or so at downtown. Seems tohave worked for well for Buffalo...

http://online.wsj.co...3296740624.html

I think it's fair to say Houston has a lot more going for it than Buffalo.

Also, we are fastest growing in master planned communities as well not just the free for all areas.

http://www.bizjourna...er-planned.html

I'm done talking about panhandlers, wish I never brought it up, I stand by what I've said in this thread, I think I was pretty clear about everything but not going to repeat anything. The single thing I did learn and was actually a constructive point is that they are by city ordinance not allowed to ask more than once.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Nick_G

[C2H]

I agree with Nick G and largeTEXAS on many issues. I don't think people should come down so harsh on him just because they don't understand his POV. Face it, The homelessness is unattractive and does tend to shoo people away from downtown. I'm not saying that is the only problem, but it is a problem. It's just the way it is. I'm not degrading them as human beings, but the problem really is in the location of the homeless shelters such as sheltering arms, star of hope, and others being directly under the pierce elevated. If those homeless are denied entrance to those facilities, where are they going to go? Under a bridge downtown.

I also agree with largeTEXAS that more lighting needs to be put downtown, and yes that includes a few neon signs. He and i have been in agreement on this issue for years since i first joined HAIF. I always felt Downtown's subdued lighting looks boring and doesn't really stand out enough to attract people. There's plenty of venues downtown, but you don't know it because of its not visible.

I moved to Houston in 2004. While i was impressed with the "then" newly redeveloped Main Street/light rail segment, I quickly learned that the rest of downtown was pretty drowsy. I honestly expected more when i visited the downtown of the 4th largest city in the U.S. Even Denver, Colorado (which is 1/2 the size of Houston) has a pretty hopping downtown that almost feels like a mini-mini Manhattan. People said that downtown had come a long way then since 1999. That must have meant that downtown Houston in the 90s was in reeall bad shape!

Now, to end my btch rant, I applaud what has been going on in downtown's eastside in the recent years. It seems like they're really making efforts to create a sense of place. The new Embassy Suites Hotel (abeit the ugly design) sitting right on the park and the new Phoenicia grocery store have breathed new life to that side of downtown. Although I am a little disappointed that Houston Pavilions hasn't really taken off yet, I am appreciative of it as a development and the few new things it's added to downtown such as: HOB, Lucky Strike, and Books a Million, and the other 2 or 3 pieces of retail stores it added. The Buffalo Bayou walk in Buffalo Bayou park, and the new symphony building are all nice. I also appreciate the developments of the 90s such as: Bayou Place, and the Cotswold Project, MMP, and the new millineum Toyota Center.

We have to get more people living downtown and that means filling the voids by making the venues more visible. Phoenicia Grocery store was an awesome addition. More pronounced lighting on the buildings and some signage would be a great start. Then we will be able to see these developments begin to thrive.

C2H (ComingtoHoustion)/stoneclaw

[TheNiche]

Although I disagree with C2H that gimmicky lighting has any effect really at all on retail sales (and I cite Dallas' Victory as evidence of that), and although I do make fun of people that are intimidated by the homeless or that imply a willingness to try and displace them, I have to say...they do scare people off and suppress sales. Its just true. There's no getting around it. Its hard to say which is the greater problem, that consumers are easily intimidated or that the homeless exist, but neither circumstance is likely to change as a result of anything we can say or do on this forum.

One of the stories that I tried to tell (twice, and which keeps getting censored by the moderators), is that I made a girl that was with me cry once by refusing to give a "devoutly christian" homeless guy money for a "sandwich" at midnight. So yeah, I get where Nick_G is coming from. There are parts of downtown where a guy just can't walk around with a girl without getting hassled by a vagrant that thinks he has social leverage in the situation. And often, they do have leverage. My dining-out habits reflect the possibility that a date might be put off by an encounter with them.

(So yes, overly-zealous moderators, the homeless are relevant to Houston Pavilions being in Trouble, which is the topic of this thread, and my experiences and input are on-topic and relate to that issue. You don't have to like me, but quit messing with me!)

[LarryDierker]

Any update on The NBCsports network in th Pavillions?

[rsb320]

Any update on The NBCsports network in th Pavillions?

I thought it was a new Comcast sports network. I can't remember where I read about it yesterday.

[largeTEXAS]

TheNiche, what type of lighting do you consider "gimmicky?" By Houston standards, it seems as though any lighting that is more involved/thought-out/decorative than the barest of bare-bones utilitarian falls into the category of "gimmicky."

In my opinion, add a little strategic lighting to a few key buildings, bridges, and landscaping, and all-the-sudden Houston is a much more attractive and inviting city.

I'd like to take a page from places like Singapore, New Orleans, Tokyo, Sapporo (in the winter), Montreal, Miami, Paris, or, even, Hong Kong. When can we get over comparing ourselves to Dallas all the time?! Houston should stop restricting landlords and let the market downtown dictate the lighting. If a building owner wants to sell space to an electronic billboard company, let them. Variety is a good thing (or, the spice of life or whatever). Blocks and blocks of blank walls is a bad thing. Or, even better, create a initiative with Central Houston and key landlords and encourage more and better lighting implementation.

Houston, especially downtown, needs more PPPs. A stronger and better-informed, well-traveled public sector should be able to guide our center city towards becoming a more visually-interesting, unique place - gimmicky and all.

[Pleak]

Lighting did not make any of the cities above what they are today. Everyone of them (except for New Orleans) is an extremely dense populated city - many with significant natural barriers to expansion. Singapore, Hong Kong have practically no land and what land they do have has been reclaimed from the ocean. Miami is hemmed in on a strip of sand between the ocean and the swamp. Tokyo has what 30+ million people. Every square inch or dirt in these cities costs a fortune . So they build up. And people live in the middle of "downtown" because everywhere is "downtown" . So they have a vibrant life downtown because there is no other choice. And with that vibrant life, comes stores and bars and lots of shiny neon. Not the other way around.

Houston does not need any more PPP's downtown. (Isn't that what drives scares all the young ladies away - the smell of urine on the sidewalks? ) In the 80's we had El Mercado - now we have Pavilions. Why continue to throw good money after bad? An interesting observation - you want to "let the market" decide on lighting downtown, but not on retail, etc downtown. The market has been deciding on retail downtown for the last 50+ years.

[Nick_G]

An interesting observation - you want to "let the market" decide on lighting downtown, but not on retail, etc downtown. The market has been deciding on retail downtown for the last 50+ years.

Which one of us was this directed to?