GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[RedScare]

I'm curious what "we" put into it. Depending on what the actual amount of tax dollars was...not money from Downtown Houston or some other TIRZ...the increase in property tax may well be worth it. If it was some nominal amount, say 6 or 8 million, then my share was about 4 bucks, certainly worth it to me. There are no exact formulas to determine worthiness. And, when one considers how many of these large projects get built, bankrupt, then succeed with the lower capital cost, this is not even that unusual.

[jgriff]

I'm curious what "we" put into it. Depending on what the actual amount of tax dollars was...not money from Downtown Houston or some other TIRZ...the increase in property tax may well be worth it. If it was some nominal amount, say 6 or 8 million, then my share was about 4 bucks, certainly worth it to me. There are no exact formulas to determine worthiness. And, when one considers how many of these large projects get built, bankrupt, then succeed with the lower capital cost, this is not even that unusual.

If it was $4 bucks then I'd say I haven't gotten my money's worth. I don't care how much it is. Government funding of a shopping mall is so rife with opportunity for graft that I'd pay to have them not build it. I'd rather live in a world where people honestly make their money than in one with one more shopping mall.

[Mister X]

Let's get real. No one was ever going to build anything better than what was built. There are still an abundance of parking lots for other 'better' developments to build on if the market should ever demand it (or even if it doesn't). I have absolutely no problem with the city giving incentives to corporations that are willing to invest in things that could POSSIBLY make dt Houston better. It will probably take a lot more investing in projects like HP to cause dt Houston to make a significant turnaround. DT Houston has been void of a vibrant retail district for longer than most of us have been alive. I see HP as one piece of the puzzle and possibly (another) starting point.

HP is infrastructure. Now that it exist, it MIGHT possibly amount to something very cool one day in our lifetimes with the right management or direction. If HP never existed there is no reason to believe that anyone would have ever built ANYTHING on those particular lots in the foreseeable future.

I'm not saying that it could not have been better or that a residential component would not have made it much better. I'm only saying that I'm glad that anyone was able to get anything with even this much potential built in that area.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Mister X

[Nole23]

Let's get real. No one was ever going to build anything better than what was built. There are still an abundance of parking lots for other 'better' developments to build on if the market should ever demand it (or even if it doesn't). I have absolutely no problem with the city giving incentives to corporations that are willing to invest in things that could POSSIBLY make dt Houston better. It will probably take a lot more investing in projects like HP to cause dt Houston to make a significant turnaround. DT Houston has been void of a vibrant retail district for longer than most of us have been alive. I see HP as one piece of the puzzle and possibly (another) starting point.

HP is infrastructure. Now that it exist, it MIGHT possibly amount to something very cool one day in our lifetimes with the right management or direction. If HP never existed there is no reason to believe that anyone would have ever built ANYTHING on those particular lots in the foreseeable future.

I'm not saying that it could not have been better or that a residential component would not have made it much better. I'm only saying that I'm glad that anyone was able to get anything with even this much potential built in that area.

The downtown management district has a plan in place for a shopping/entertainment district as mentioned in the thread below. Hopefully something like this will be done sooner rather than later. We will see....

http://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/25699-downtown-proposes-shopping-entertainment-district/

[totheskies]

Yeah sure, rail to the barrio will drive sales at Houston Pavilions. Maybe the new owner can generate interest from pawn shop operators and refresquerias, and then strike it rich!

So I take it you don't ride the 50, 52 or the 30 very much?? I've been on each of those buses and seen 4 or 5 Foever 21 bags on them at a time. 2nd and 3rd Ward know about Houston Pavillions, and the rail lines are gonna make for a faster trip.

[RedScare]

I'd rather live in a world where people honestly make their money than in one with one more shopping mall.

Thanks for making me chuckle.

[Subdude]

If it was $4 bucks then I'd say I haven't gotten my money's worth. I don't care how much it is. Government funding of a shopping mall is so rife with opportunity for graft that I'd pay to have them not build it.

I don't have a problem conceptually with government funding shopping malls for economic development, but the argument would be less compelling in this case. Successful downtown retail is always going to be a slog until there is enough of a residential base downtown. I would focus on that first and worry about retail later.

[TheNiche]

So I take it you don't ride the 50, 52 or the 30 very much?? I've been on each of those buses and seen 4 or 5 Foever 21 bags on them at a time. 2nd and 3rd Ward know about Houston Pavillions, and the rail lines are gonna make for a faster trip.

I've never so much as seen a Forever 21 bag.

I had figured that it was oriented to upper middle class women and was bringing the attention of monied individuals to the downtown area as an option for their shopping needs. That's the sort of foot traffic that it takes to develop a viable shopping district. But if its only attracting poor people to spend money on items that they can scarcely afford, then screw it. It serves no purpose compatible with social policy. Thank you; your comments have soured me to the prospect that a subsidy of Houston Pavilions has any redeeming qualities.

[infinite_jim]

Those yellow bags are everywhere's on my lunch break and on my way home in the evening. The place gets plenty of foot traffic even as a dead mall. I did all of my Christmas shopping there in one fell swoop!

I can get with the concept of a "safe street" for pedestrians, but IMHO cars should be a part of that design solution. As infrastructure the city should also follow up and develop the block extending east of HP for a suitable anchor (like Bloomingdales's etc).

[mfastx]

Just rode by on the METRORail earlier today and it was quite busy. Lots of foot traffic.

[LarryDierker]

Went to the pavilions today to use my Books a million gift card that I received for Christmas.

there was actually a few people in the store.

[VicMan]

Went to the pavilions today to use my Books a million gift card that I received for Christmas.

there was actually a few people in the store.

Good to hear. It probably helped that Borders croaked.

The HP store seems to be the only mainstream bookstore in close proximity to much of east, northeast, and southeast Houston. The next nearest stores towards the east are Barnes and Noble outlets in Deerbrook Mall (Humble) to the northeast and the Fairway Market Place in Pasadena to the southeast. Both of those stores are just outside the Beltway. There is an additional store in Baybrook II in Webster to the southeast.

Edited January 1, 2012 by VicMan

[TheNiche]

The HP store seems to be the only mainstream bookstore in close proximity to much of east, northeast, and southeast Houston. The next nearest stores towards the east are Barnes and Noble outlets in Deerbrook Mall (Humble) to the northeast and the Fairway Market Place in Pasadena to the southeast. Both of those stores are just outside the Beltway. There is an additional store in Baybrook II in Webster to the southeast.

They've got a lock on the ghetto. Yeah. Awesomeness.

[scarface]

I don't have a problem conceptually with government funding shopping malls for economic development, but the argument would be less compelling in this case. Successful downtown retail is always going to be a slog until there is enough of a residential base downtown. I would focus on that first and worry about retail later.

i'm not so sure about this. It's a catch 22 in the sense that people really need a reason to live downtown. At first glance, who wants to pay 3x the amount of rent that they could pay anywhere else, and not have access to hardly any amentities? Downtown see,s to be shaping up with the Discovery Green, OPP/Grocery store, and hotel, but these type of developments need to continue. They need to make these things more visible too. I was surprised to see the Phonecia grocery store able to put such a large display on the building. Very good step. But better lighting and visibility would be a great start. Downtown feels so drab and uninviting with all the voids between destinations.

[TheNiche]

i'm not so sure about this. It's a catch 22 in the sense that people really need a reason to live downtown. At first glance, who wants to pay 3x the amount of rent that they could pay anywhere else, and not have access to hardly any amentities? Downtown see,s to be shaping up with the Discovery Green, OPP/Grocery store, and hotel, but these type of developments need to continue. They need to make these things more visible too. I was surprised to see the Phonecia grocery store able to put such a large display on the building. Very good step. But better lighting and visibility would be a great start. Downtown feels so drab and uninviting with all the voids between destinations.

The demand is sourced from 1) people who work downtown, 2) large energy and law firms that require corporate housing for their out-of-town visitors, and 3) people that have just recently moved here from the east or west coasts that are used to paying ridiculously high rents and that just assume that downtown is where the cool kids live.

[totheskies]

I've never so much as seen a Forever 21 bag.

I had figured that it was oriented to upper middle class women and was bringing the attention of monied individuals to the downtown area as an option for their shopping needs. That's the sort of foot traffic that it takes to develop a viable shopping district. But if its only attracting poor people to spend money on items that they can scarcely afford, then screw it. It serves no purpose compatible with social policy. Thank you; your comments have soured me to the prospect that a subsidy of Houston Pavilions has any redeeming qualities.

Forever 21 has mass appeal. It's a not a super high-end store, but on the same competitive field as Old Navy (which would have been an even better retail choice for HP I think) and draws a wide spectrum of shoppers.

[TheNiche]

Old Navy is better than this? Ugh. No wonder I've never heard of it, and thank goodness.

[Nate99]

I walked by the other day, and it occurred to me how close HP was to the Park Shops (Shops at Houston Center, if you prefer).

Seems to me that a failed mall two blocks away might have stopped someone from developing a mall in the first place. That said, the stuff that is open is nice enough, I suppose, so long as the rest of it doesn't rot away in 10 or 20 years.

Shopping in downtown is severely limiting. Nearly anyone can get to the Galleria just as easily, park for free and not sweat in between stores. For those that can't get to the Galleria easily, well, they really shouldn't be shopping there anyway.

[arrodiii]

Yeah sure, rail to the barrio will drive sales at Houston Pavilions. Maybe the new owner can generate interest from pawn shop operators and refresquerias, and then strike it rich!

Actually I am speaking of the area by the ballpark and discovery green. I am hoping that some of those surface lots can be developed (maybe a couple parking garages) and hopefully even get someone to develop some of those many abandoned buildings as well.

[samagon]

Actually I am speaking of the area by the ballpark and discovery green. I am hoping that some of those surface lots can be developed (maybe a couple parking garages) and hopefully even get someone to develop some of those many abandoned buildings as well.

it's all marketing fluff for grandiose designs...

http://downtownhouston.org/news/article/planning-future/

[MaggieMay]

Old Navy is better than this? Ugh. No wonder I've never heard of it, and thank goodness.

You appear to be male & probably don't dress in drag--so there's no reason for you to know about Forever 21. They sell trendy clothes for young women.

I occasionally hit Books A Million for magazines. And McCormick & Schmick for happy hour. Got food poisoning at the Mexican place....

[Daniepwils]

You appear to be male & probably don't dress in drag--so there's no reason for you to know about Forever 21. They sell trendy clothes for young women.

I occasionally hit Books A Million for magazines. And McCormick & Schmick for happy hour. Got food poisoning at the Mexican place....

XXI does sell men’s clothing. I think I bought a shirt from here once, but before then I had never set foot in one. The material they use to make the clothes is just crappy, I'd say Old Navy has better quality clothing than XXI (I am guessing only because BR, Gap and Old Navy are owned by the same parent company and I have only shopped at BR).

[samagon]

gap and old navy have always been the same company though, right? or at least I thought that.

[Houston19514]

gap and old navy have always been the same company though, right? or at least I thought that.

Yes, Gap and Old Navy have always been the same company. Price and quality are highest at Banana Republic, medium at Gap and lowest at Old Navy. It is not the same merchandise at the three chains, or the same quality.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Houston19514

[samagon]

which is weird (and maybe I just only shop at GAP when there's a sale) because I've found that GAP jeans are cheaper than ON?

[Houston19514]

which is weird (and maybe I just only shop at GAP when there's a sale) because I've found that GAP jeans are cheaper than ON?

A very quick glance at their websites shows a GAP price range for mens jeans of roughly $59.95-$89.50 (ignoring sale prices). Old Navy's prices (also ignoring sale prices) range roughly from $29.50-$39.94. Old Navy sale prices go as low as $19.95, while GAP's sale prices only go down to about $34.99.

[infinite_jim]

Look what you've done Niche!

[samagon]

Look what you've done Niche!

for some reason, this makes me envision him sitting at his computer doing the Montgomery Burns "excellent"

Edited January 12, 2012 by samagon

[RedScare]

Potential new tenant for HP: NBC Sports

http://www.chron.com/business/article/Downtown-Houston-in-the-running-for-NBC-Sports-2653814.php#photo-2132340

[Nick_G]

it's all marketing fluff for grandiose designs...

http://downtownhoust...lanning-future/

The convention district should help support the pavilions in the future, if stores close down it won't be forever.

http://www.chron.com/business/article/Houston-officials-will-unveil-sweeping-plan-for-2434156.php

We really need to do something about the transients in downtown though, no one wants to see homeless people when they go shopping.