GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[Houston19514]

iPic is rumored to moving in per culture map

http://houston.culturemap.com/newsdetail/02-23-13-cinema-wars-heat-up-luxury-movie-theater-wants-to-take-over-the-vacant-books-a-million-spot/

 

Very cool. 

[livincinco]

iPic is rumored to moving in per culture map

http://houston.culturemap.com/newsdetail/02-23-13-cinema-wars-heat-up-luxury-movie-theater-wants-to-take-over-the-vacant-books-a-million-spot/

I don't think that the Books a Million space is big enough for iPic, so that could be a significant additional win as well if it happens.

IPic runs 43-46k sq feet in their theaters and it looks like the Books a Million space is 23k.

[Houston19514]

I don't think that the Books a Million space is big enough for iPic, so that could be a significant additional win as well if it happens.

IPic runs 43-46k sq feet in their theaters and it looks like the Books a Million space is 23k.

 

Interesting point.  And unless they relocate another tenant (i.e., part of NRG's offices), there is not sufficient space next to the Books a MIllion space to achieve 42-46k.

[j_cuevas713]

Wow this would be an upgrade from the bookstore

[arrodiii]

I'm on the fence about that...I would prefer a retailer get the space as opposed to another movie theater in downtown

[kylejack]

Yeah, we have Sundance. We don't need a second theater, and the space isn't big enough.

[houstonartstudent]

The first floor next to the Books A Million looks to be available.  If they did build it, Sundance probably wouldn't make it with that and Alamo Drafthouse planned nearby...but I agree retail would be nice...but so would free parking

[j_cuevas713]

I disagree, as great as retail would be, there needs to be more competition, if Sundance is all there is than it can become very stagnant. The more competition and choices people have, the more we can begin to see sustainable growth downtown. This is just a movie theater, but evem if it was retail, in order for it to survive and fight in the market, it would need competition of some kind.

[kylejack]

I disagree, as great as retail would be, there needs to be more competition, if Sundance is all there is than it can become very stagnant. The more competition and choices people have, the more we can begin to see sustainable growth downtown. This is just a movie theater, but evem if it was retail, in order for it to survive and fight in the market, it would need competition of some kind.

 

I think ticket sales for both Angelika and Sundance have shown that Downtown can currently support about one movie theater. The fact that iPic and Sundance are both "premium" style theaters makes it even worse.

[swtsig]

I disagree, as great as retail would be, there needs to be more competition, if Sundance is all there is than it can become very stagnant. The more competition and choices people have, the more we can begin to see sustainable growth downtown. This is just a movie theater, but evem if it was retail, in order for it to survive and fight in the market, it would need competition of some kind.

it's like you completely ignored the whole "supply/demand" aspect of free market capitalism. what does adding compettion have to do with "surviving and fighting in the market"? as kylejack mentioned the numbers have shown that the premium theater market in downtown is plenty served by one theater so how does adding another at this point in time do anything other than cannibalize themselves into non-existence?

[livincinco]

Has anything happened in the last five years that should make any of us feel like HP is capable of supporting significant retail? IMO, Pavilions is (and may always be) a dining and entertainment complex that has a minor retail component.

Regarding whether downtown can support two movie theaters, there were a lot of people that also questioned whether downtown could support two grocery stores, but that seems to be going pretty well.

What kills me about HP is the lack of development that has occurred between there and Discovery Green/Toyota Center. There are about five blocks that would seem to be prime opportunities for development. Anybody know why that hasn't happened?

[RedScare]

Well, there is the "restaurant row" phenomenon, but I have never seen any research suggesting that the same phenomenon applies to movie theaters. For those who have never heard of "restaurant rows", studies show that one restaurant in an area may struggle, but as more restaurants open in the same area, that area becomes known for having several restaurant choices. People who are unsure exactly what they want to eat will tend to drive to the "restaurant row", confident that at least one of the many choices will satisfy them. For instance, I may drive to Washington Avenue, or Rice Village without having a particular place in mind, and decide where to eat once I get there.

 

Again, I am unsure if this applies to movie theatres. It might. That could help explain multiplexes.

[livincinco]

I am unsure if this applies to movie theatres. It might. That could help explain multiplexes.

I was thinking more of overall entertainment options in the context of places like LA Live or CityWalk in LA. Those are primarily restaurant and entertainment driven places that have become "destinations" for a night out. The difference with LA Live is that it's built literally around the Staples Center which has three professional teams that constantly drive traffic.

[kylejack]

Regarding whether downtown can support two movie theaters, there were a lot of people that also questioned whether downtown could support two grocery stores, but that seems to be going pretty well.

 

I think you're counting chickens that aren't hatched. Georgia's is a long way from being a grocery store, and as best as I can tell, it is struggling. Their website went down for a while due to a slow payment to their PR firm, I heard.

[102IAHexpress]

HP seemed promising at first, but the moment the residential component was axed, it made the task of supplying downtown locals too difficult. No tunnel access for the daytime crowd did not help. And I cant speak for all of downtown's residents but I live at Rice Lofts and for me HP is too far to walk to on a regular basis. As far as the rumored movie theatre goes, why would I walk farther and get bummed more when I can get a better experience at sundance just down the street from me?

[fatesdisastr]

HP seemed promising at first, but the moment the residential component was axed, it made the task of supplying downtown locals too difficult. No tunnel access for the daytime crowd did not help. And I cant speak for all of downtown's residents but I live at Rice Lofts and for me HP is too far to walk to on a regular basis. As far as the rumored movie theatre goes, why would I walk farther and get bummed more when I can get a better experience at sundance just down the street from me?

 

Spoken like a true Houstonian haha. Wouldn't walk a half mile on a regular basis.

[RedScare]

Wants a pedestrian environment. Too lazy to be a pedestrian. Someone else's fault.

 

There's probably a life lesson there somewhere.

[102IAHexpress]

Maybe you don't live in downtown, but I do. And getting bummed on a regular basis gets annoying fast. The farther you walk the more times you get bummed. Simple science. It has nothing to do with laziness, I regularly cross the entire tunnel system during lunch, it rather has to do with peace of mind. I'm okay with getting bummed once on they way to Sundance, but not 3 times on the way to HP. But maybe HP knows something I don't? maybe they're turning big profits over there?

[RedScare]

Not everyone is cut out for urban living. Maybe you should look into other living arrangements. As for living downtown, I don't. However, I officed downtown from 1997. I think I've met my share of bums. It never got to me to the point of not walking where I wanted to go. Again, urban life isn't for everyone.

[102IAHexpress]

Actually i put my money where my mouth is. I live and work in downtown. My fiance lives and works in Downtown. We are fully commited to this neighborhood. But i am also realistic. and i know Downtown's limitations. I'm sorry that hurts your feelings so much. But i don't have any control over your feelings. There's a reason why there is a network of tunnel's underneath the streets of downtown. Thousands of people prefer the tunnels. HP decided to build their development without tunnel access. That's there choice in a free market, but they will get no sympathy from me when the alienated locals flock somewhere else...

[samagon]

Distances in downtown are not measured in miles, but by how many times you have to ignore someone, or say "no, sorry".

 

What 2 grocery stores are there?

 

There's Randalls, which is close to downtown, and is what I would consider the only real grocery store in the downtown area.

 

There's Phoenecia, it's nice to pick up some interesting stuff there from time to time, but in my estimation, for a place to be called a grocery store, they need to have a healthy fresh produce selection, not just deli meats, cheese, and lots of already prepared food. But Phoenecia's example of a fresh produce section is a single open cooler with week old vegetables that are all far too squishy. One thing Phoenecia has going for it though, I don't have to pass isle after isle of processed junk to get from one side to the other.

 

I'm having a hard time thinking of anything else in downtown, CVS on main maybe?

 

I'm also having a hard time envisioning a second movie theater doing well downtown, specifically in such a niche market.

Edited February 26, 2013 by samagon

[RedScare]

 I'm sorry that hurts your feelings so much. But i don't have any control over your feelings. 

 

I'm not the one whose upper lip is quivering over bums. My feelings are just fine, thank you.

 

By the way, HP is not a half mile from Rice Lofts. It is actually just over a quarter mile. 6 blocks at 250 feet per block. That's some serious commitment to downtown right there.

[kylejack]

Maybe you don't live in downtown, but I do. And getting bummed on a regular basis gets annoying fast. The farther you walk the more times you get bummed. Simple science. It has nothing to do with laziness, I regularly cross the entire tunnel system during lunch, it rather has to do with peace of mind. I'm okay with getting bummed once on they way to Sundance, but not 3 times on the way to HP. But maybe HP knows something I don't? maybe they're turning big profits over there?

 

I live downtown. Six blocks is not a long way to walk. If a person asks you for something you don't want to give them, simply say No. I don't even make up sob stories about being out of change. I just say, "No" and they leave me alone. Try it.

I'm not the one whose upper lip is quivering over bums. My feelings are just fine, thank you.

 

By the way, HP is not a half mile from Rice Lofts. It is actually just over a quarter mile. 6 blocks at 250 feet per block. That's some serious commitment to downtown right there.

 

Yeah but the round trip, man! The round trip!

[kylejack]

Distances in downtown are not measured in miles, but by how many times you have to ignore someone, or say "no, sorry".

 

What 2 grocery stores are there?

 

There's Randalls, which is close to downtown, and is what I would consider the only real grocery store in the downtown area.

 

There's Phoenecia, it's nice to pick up some interesting stuff there from time to time, but in my estimation, for a place to be called a grocery store, they need to have a healthy fresh produce selection, not just deli meats, cheese, and lots of already prepared food. But Phoenecia's example of a fresh produce section is a single open cooler with week old vegetables that are all far too squishy. One thing Phoenecia has going for it though, I don't have to pass isle after isle of processed junk to get from one side to the other.

 

I'm having a hard time thinking of anything else in downtown, CVS on main maybe?

 

I'm also having a hard time envisioning a second movie theater doing well downtown, specifically in such a niche market.

 

The two grocery stores referred to are Phoenicia and Georgia's.

Actually i put my money where my mouth is. I live and work in downtown. My fiance lives and works in Downtown. We are fully commited to this neighborhood. But i am also realistic. and i know Downtown's limitations. I'm sorry that hurts your feelings so much. But i don't have any control over your feelings. There's a reason why there is a network of tunnel's underneath the streets of downtown. Thousands of people prefer the tunnels. HP decided to build their development without tunnel access. That's there choice in a free market, but they will get no sympathy from me when the alienated locals flock somewhere else...

 

That's true, but they're avoiding the heat, not the bums.

[Pleak]

This has gotten absolutely hilarious.    Once again,  the hue and cry about make Houston more walkable- blah, blah, blah.

 

But not for me.  I might have to look at someone icky.

 

I've said it before in other threads- people really want Cinco Ranch in the Heights, Midtown, Downtown.  Where everybody looks just like them and THEY can control who lives there,  who walks on the streets, what color they paint thier house/condo/apartment door.

 

They think they are all hip and urbane but in reality they are just like their suburban parents they are so desparately trying to run away from.

[102IAHexpress]

My fiance works for  MHMRA of Harris County and is assigned to the Harris County Jail. She works with most mentally disturbed people in the county. In fact she has commited her life to them. She sees them five days a week eight hours a day. When she gets home after work she does not want to be harrased by any more mentally disturbed people then she has to on the way to a resteraunt. sometimes it's not as easy as just saying no thank you and walking away. Sometimes bums are seriously mentally ill and are a danger to themselves and others. Sometimes they are just bums and want money and nothing more. I don't want to do a case study on bums. I would rather just avoid them if i could. HP designed their development poorly. I don't want it to fail, i just don't think it's realisitic to think it will suceed... But what do i know, i just live here.

[kylejack]

I've lived downtown since 2008 and "No" has always sufficed. Nobody's ever tried to hurt me or follow me.

 

I do agree that street harassment of women downtown is a problem, though, and not just by "bums."

[samagon]

I ogle my fair share (perhaps more than my fair share) of good looking women, but I blame them for looking good, and they hopefully don't take it as harassment.

 

As far as bums go, I've found as well that saying "no" works well.

 

The problem I find is when I'm with someone who stops and talks, or tries to save every person on the street, if your fiancee is that way, then that would be a problem. Did the bum ask for someone to talk to, or for money?

 

Maybe the bum is the real victim here, they just want to panhandle their way into their next beer, and as much as your fiancee thinks they want the help, they do not want to talk about why they are where they are in life.

 

If your fiancee is like the women who I know that are like that, it's best to not breach that subject and easier to find ways to avoid bums, because she probably will never accept the fact that not everyone wants to be helped, and it will end with an argument about how callous you are.

Edited February 26, 2013 by samagon

[arrodiii]

I have lived in downtown since around 2002-2003 and a simple "No" or a shake of the head usually suffices for being an answer to panhandlers or just plain ignore them and continue walking.  I really dont think that I have ever had one continue on after I do any of these.  Sure they may curse me out or call me a liar, but I am also still going to where I was going in the first place.  If you really are intent on getting by without geting "bummed" or asked to help someone out with bus fare, food, drink, etc., it's not hard to, especially if you are used to living in a real urban environment.

 

And yes, I walk everywhere (gave up my car back in 2000); no there are no "real" grocery stores in downtown proper; the tunnels were made for commuting from one end of dt to the other in the summer without getting heat stroke, and dt should not have two movie theaters without the proper number of residents living in downtown to be able to sustain both.

[jgriff]

I was threatened by a bum downtown once. He told me to give him my shoes or he would kill me. Luckily he was too high on something to stay upright. When I worked in downtown I would walk sometimes 10 miles a day. The bums are usually not dangerous, they're just ugly and disgusting. I don't want to live, eat, go to a movie or otherwise spend any time around them. They have a right to exist, but I also have my right to avoid them and shall continue to do so. I do the same with ugly areas of Houston. Greenspoint, Sharpstown, Harwin, etc... Not going to these places makes Houston a more beautiful city to live in.