Shell Energy Stadium

[livincinco]

Except that no City money is required. The City has already purchased the land, which is all they agreed to do. The Dynamo are proposing to put millions into upgrading our City land into a stadium. Annise can keep her promise without shutting down the stadium project.

Exactly, build the stadium with no additonal public funding and promote in the press how it was accomplished while showing fiscal responsibility. Reality and politics are two totally unrelated concepts.

[totheskies]

I voted for Parker, and will still vote for her in the runoff, but losing the Houston Dynamo is HUGE mistake... and we WILL LOSE THEM if a stadium deal doesn't go through. And we need it built in the central city... all of our major sports venues are in the same area. It would be so stupid to build this in Pearland and cut off a huge swath of Dynamo fans from being able to get to games via public transit. I've written the Parker campaign twice now about this issue... guess it's time to write them again.

[crunchtastic]

I voted for Parker, and will still vote for her in the runoff, but losing the Houston Dynamo is HUGE mistake... and we WILL LOSE THEM if a stadium deal doesn't go through. And we need it built in the central city... all of our major sports venues are in the same area. It would be so stupid to build this in Pearland and cut off a huge swath of Dynamo fans from being able to get to games via public transit. I've written the Parker campaign twice now about this issue... guess it's time to write them again.

Then you need to be writing the county, not the city. Harris County is the only taxing authority in a position to make or break the deal. The COH has already agreed to the land deal. Parker and Locke both are blowing political smoke rings on this.

[gto250us]

I think that it would be insane to pay for another stadium just for soccer. Nuts, Loco. If the Dynamo want to leave because of that, good riddens. There should be no reason why the could not play at UH, Rice or Reliant.

[JLWM8609]

It would be so stupid to build this in Pearland and cut off a huge swath of Dynamo fans from being able to get to games via public transit.

That location is not in Pearland, it's well within the boundaries of the Houston City Limits and closer to Sunnyside more than anything else. I guess I see where you could get confused, Sunnyside, Pearland, same thing.

[samagon]

I think that it would be insane to pay for another stadium just for soccer. Nuts, Loco. If the Dynamo want to leave because of that, good riddens. There should be no reason why the could not play at UH, Rice or Reliant.

I think you're right. It's damn good that the Dynamo are fronting all the money to build a stadium that will be owned by the county, and will be used for more than just soccer.

The reason this isn't moving forward is that somewhere someone has decided they don't want to upgrade the utilities.

Edited November 17, 2009 by samagon

[LTAWACS]

Wait a minute wait a minute... what does pearland have to do with any of this? I scanned this thread and it seems to me that the stadium wants to be built near downtown Houston... when did pearland come into this?

[samagon]

Wait a minute wait a minute... what does pearland have to do with any of this? I scanned this thread and it seems to me that the stadium wants to be built near downtown Houston... when did pearland come into this?

They are confusing the sports complex with the soccer stadium.

[gto250us]

... the Dynamo are fronting all the money to build a stadium ...

By "Fronting" I assume that the county would have to pay back the Dynamo. Thus, the tax payers are still paying for a stadium that is not really needed.

[AtticaFlinch]

By "Fronting" I assume that the county would have to pay back the Dynamo. Thus, the tax payers are still paying for a stadium that is not really needed.

So much for assumptions.

The people of Houston will pay back the team... by purchasing tickets and concessions. This isn't new news either.

Under the Dynamo's proposed deal, the team would put up about $60 million towards a stadium, while the city and county would provide $20 million in tax-increment financing plus free land. The public money would repay bonds that the Dynamo have to sell first

Of that $20 million, $15 million is the free land. You know, the land that's already been purchased? Besides, under the plan, the Dynamo will be required to find private backing to underwrite the public funds. What's so awful about this idea? The city's on the hook for what, $5 million dollars that could possibly go to bad debt? That's a bargain at twice the price.

[samagon]

By "Fronting" I assume that the county would have to pay back the Dynamo. Thus, the tax payers are still paying for a stadium that is not really needed.

sorry for using a confusing word, they are going to pay for it. 100%.

[LTAWACS]

They are confusing the sports complex with the soccer stadium.

Thank you for clearing this up.

[gto250us]

So much for assumptions.

The people of Houston will pay back the team... by purchasing tickets and concessions. This isn't new news either.

Of that $20 million, $15 million is the free land. You know, the land that's already been purchased? Besides, under the plan, the Dynamo will be required to find private backing to underwrite the public funds. What's so awful about this idea? The city's on the hook for what, $5 million dollars that could possibly go to bad debt? That's a bargain at twice the price.

I see $15-20 Million in "Free" land. Nothing is free. Someone, taxpayer? will pay for that.

Tax incentives? Again, taxpayers will pay for that.

No matter how much lipstick you put on it, it is a bad deal for the average Joe. I guess if you are a big soccer fan, it looks great.

Why not build another indoor arena for the Aeros? or a third indoor arena so that we can lure back a women's B-Ball team?

[AtticaFlinch]

I see $15-20 Million in "Free" land. Nothing is free. Someone, taxpayer? will pay for that.

Tax incentives? Again, taxpayers will pay for that.

No matter how much lipstick you put on it, it is a bad deal for the average Joe. I guess if you are a big soccer fan, it looks great.

Why not build another indoor arena for the Aeros? or a third indoor arena so that we can lure back a women's B-Ball team?

So? If the debt goes bad, then the city's sitting on top of $15-20 million dollars of prime real estate. Of course, the real estate will be worth far more now simply because it's developed, but that's besides the point, I guess. I really don't see how the city (or the taxpayers) can lose on this.

[samagon]

I see $15-20 Million in "Free" land. Nothing is free. Someone, taxpayer? will pay for that.

Tax incentives? Again, taxpayers will pay for that.

No matter how much lipstick you put on it, it is a bad deal for the average Joe. I guess if you are a big soccer fan, it looks great.

I think you're wrong here, as someone earlier corrected me, the land was 3/4 of the $20 Million being paid by the city/county, and that $15 Million has already been used to acquire the land. The remaining $5 Million would go towards upgrading utilities.

Why not build another indoor arena for the Aeros? or a third indoor arena so that we can lure back a women's B-Ball team?

Why not? Because the toyota center was built with their use in mind, and it is not a 57 year old high school football stadium that has been continually re-purposed through the years.

Another excellent reason is that this stadium will also host TSU's football team, as their home field.

[TheNiche]

So? If the debt goes bad, then the city's sitting on top of $15-20 million dollars of prime real estate. Of course, the real estate will be worth far more now simply because it's developed, but that's besides the point, I guess. I really don't see how the city (or the taxpayers) can lose on this.

From my reading, it doesn't look like the City or County has agreed to purchase any of the Dynamo's debt issuances for this facility. If the Dynamo were unable to service their debt for whatever reason (which seems unlikely because according to information from the link you posted, the City or County looks to be guaranteeing or paying down the Dynamo's debt), then there'd probably be a Chapter 11 reorganization but the City or County wouldn't seem to have a dog in that fight. I could be wrong and there could be a clause somewhere in the contracts to address that contingency, but there's nothing on the surface which would suggest that.

The City and County have already assembled six blocks of land which has been pledged to the Dynamo if they build their stadium there. I think that a couple of those blocks were already owned by Harris County, but the others were purchased at a fairly high price at the peak of the market. A total of six functional buildings were torn down (including one that had previously been used by Harris County for which replacement facilities were necessary) and all other improvements to these properties have also been removed. If you drive by it today, you will witness that this assemblage is a gaping hole in the urban fabric. The City and County are upside-down on the land play; negotiations with the Dynamo don't seem to be progressing, so I am genuinely concerned that this deal could go sour and that they'd have to ultimately realize a sizable finanical loss in order to return the land to a private party that pays property taxes on it.

[AtticaFlinch]

From my reading, it doesn't look like the City or County has agreed to purchase any of the Dynamo's debt issuances for this facility. If the Dynamo were unable to service their debt for whatever reason (which seems unlikely because according to information from the link you posted, the City or County looks to be guaranteeing or paying down the Dynamo's debt), then there'd probably be a Chapter 11 reorganization but the City or County wouldn't seem to have a dog in that fight. I could be wrong and there could be a clause somewhere in the contracts to address that contingency, but there's nothing on the surface which would suggest that.

The City and County have already assembled six blocks of land which has been pledged to the Dynamo if they build their stadium there. I think that a couple of those blocks were already owned by Harris County, but the others were purchased at a fairly high price at the peak of the market. A total of six functional buildings were torn down (including one that had previously been used by Harris County for which replacement facilities were necessary) and all other improvements to these properties have also been removed. If you drive by it today, you will witness that this assemblage is a gaping hole in the urban fabric. The City and County are upside-down on the land play; negotiations with the Dynamo don't seem to be progressing, so I am genuinely concerned that this deal could go sour and that they'd have to ultimately realize a sizable finanical loss in order to return the land to a private party that pays property taxes on it.

Let me see if I've got this straight...

If the deal doesn't go through, then we will guaranteed lose money, but if it goes through, there's a slight chance we may lose money but most likely we make money?

It seems to me the anti-stadium folks pushing against the stadium for fiscal responsibility reasons are actually being fiscally irresponsible here. This stadium is pretty much a no-brainer. Let's hope it happens.

[TheNiche]

Let me see if I've got this straight...

If the deal doesn't go through, then we will guaranteed lose money, but if it goes through, there's a slight chance we may lose money but most likely we make money?

It seems to me the anti-stadium folks pushing against the stadium for fiscal responsibility reasons are actually being fiscally irresponsible here. This stadium is pretty much a no-brainer. Let's hope it happens.

If the deal doesn't go through, the City and County will definitely realize a loss. The loss will include the decline in land value from its market peak, the elimination of the value of the improvements net of salvage value plus the demolition cost, the lost tax revenues between when the properties were purchased and when they were put back on the market, and the present value of the lost tax revenues on the value of the improvements which otherwise would've remained there and been taxable after the property was sold back into the private sector. The loss will be unmitigated; there will be nothing to show for it.

If the deal does go through, then the whole of the value of the land (including the costs of purchasing and preparing the land) is treated as a contribution to the entity that will own the stadium, presumably Anschutz Entertainment Group. This sort of thing happens all the time, where a state or local government entity contributes land to a private enterprise with the stated intent of recognizing future direct or indirect economic benefits that make the contribution worthwhile to either the governments' coffers or its constituents. In order to be made fiscally whole again, the government will have to make up for the outlay, and there are several ways to do that, however it always ultimately requires raising extra tax revenue from somewhere...and I'd be stunned if AEG weren't getting long-term tax abatements worked into the deal, so don't count on it being them that pays.

Whether public financial support is warranted or not is an issue that I don't care to comment on. I don't discount the possibility. But one thing seems pretty clear: under no circumstances is this a money-maker for the City or the County. If they pledge to support the Dynamo in this way, it must be because they believe that their constituents will receive sufficient enjoyment out of the Dynamo at this location to justify the outlays (and the recovery of those outlays through taxes).

[LTAWACS]

Why not build another indoor arena for the Aeros? or a third indoor arena so that we can lure back a women's B-Ball team?

We already have toyota center for the aeros and the new YMCA for the women's b-ball team.

[samagon]

We already have toyota center for the aeros and the new YMCA for the women's b-ball team.

hahahahaha

[Original Timmy Chan's]

We already have toyota center for the aeros and the new YMCA for the women's b-ball team.

If you recall, the Comets spent their last season at the AstroArena. That same facility also hosted the Rice Owls while Autry Court was being renovated.

The old AstroArena is one step above a YMCA gym...which puts it about two steps above the old Autry Court.

[Stan Collins]

If the deal does go through, then the whole of the value of the land (including the costs of purchasing and preparing the land) is treated as a contribution to the entity that will own the stadium, presumably Anschutz Entertainment Group.

AEG is not likely to own the stadium, and will certainly not own the land. Most likely, they'll have an operating license on a city-owned facility.

The one thing this type of discussion does show, though, is that the devil is in the details.

[lockmat]

http://www.globest.com/news/1561_1561/kansascity/182745-1.html

KANSAS CITY, KS-The Kansas City Wizards will break ground next week on a new soccer stadium to go up in Village West.

[citizen4rmptown]

http://www.globest.c...y/182745-1.html

KANSAS CITY, KS-The Kansas City Wizards will break ground next week on a new soccer stadium to go up in Village West.

Don't take this the wrong way, but what was the point of posting this?

[lockmat]

Don't take this the wrong way, but what was the point of posting this?

Just to poke fun.

I keep thinking of all the reports that a decision will be made in "two weeks" and then that turns into almost two years...and now Kansas City! is building a stadium.

I hope to see it get built but am skeptical.

[Houston19514]

Just to poke fun.

I keep thinking of all the reports that a decision will be made in "two weeks" and then that turns into almost two years...and now Kansas City! is building a stadium.

I hope to see it get built but am skeptical.

And how long has Kansas City been talking about building a soccer stadium? Just asking...

[Houston19514]

Just to poke fun.

I keep thinking of all the reports that a decision will be made in "two weeks" and then that turns into almost two years...and now Kansas City! is building a stadium.

I hope to see it get built but am skeptical.

And how long has Kansas City been talking about building a soccer stadium? Just asking...

I went ahead and poked around the internet a bit to see how long the Kansas City team has been looking for/talking about a permanent stadium. It appears that they have been bouncing around the Kansas City metropolitan area since approximately 1996.

[lockmat]

I went ahead and poked around the internet a bit to see how long the Kansas City team has been looking for/talking about a permanent stadium. It appears that they have been bouncing around the Kansas City metropolitan area since approximately 1996.

So we have to wait four more years????

jk

[musicman]

So we have to wait four more years????

jk

it will be 2010 not 1996.

Edited December 20, 2009 by musicman

[Houston19514]

So we have to wait four more years????

jk

;-) If you're suggesting we'll take as long as the KC team's stadium search (13 years), then we have to wait another 9 years, not just 4...