Drewery Place: Multifamily High-Rise At 2850 Fannin St.

[jmitch94]

Love when developers come in and buy out a business that adds to the community all to just demo the building and add nothing. Hopefully they sell the land and can bring in a developer with some power to get stuff done. 

[Montrose1100]

17 hours ago, Urbannizer said:

Listing confirms Caydon has abandoned Houston.

https://res.cloudinary.com/jll-global-cmg/image/upload/v1621883691/IC/Img/Original/d8e8aya8h89skoblbyhe.pdf

Fitzroy Residences no longer exists on their website so no Phase II.

I love how River Oaks and Upper Kirby have swallowed half of Montrose on slide 10. 

It's a huge shame but perhaps a different developer will add some diversity in design there. I've done yoga nearby and my dentist is across the street. It's a beautiful area. 

[H-Town Man]

17 hours ago, Urbannizer said:

Listing confirms Caydon has abandoned Houston.

https://res.cloudinary.com/jll-global-cmg/image/upload/v1621883691/IC/Img/Original/d8e8aya8h89skoblbyhe.pdf

Fitzroy Residences no longer exists on their website so no Phase II.

It is the future I see... Camden will buy the land at a rock-bottom foreclosure sale price, then sit on it for ten years. Then they will build a gated, garden-style apartment complex with a high wall. As they do so, they will say that mixed-use development just doesn't work in Houston, although they continue to pursue it with their projects in Atlanta, Charlotte, and Dallas.

 

[nate4l1f3]

This one hurts the most. Can’t see something better than what was planned going here. 

[Avossos]

Here is the deal - Midtown as a market is very large. It has advantages and disadvantages... While losing some projects is disappointing, We should consider the bigger picture...

Area: Located between Southern Downtown / Montrose / Museum Park / 3rd Ward

• None of these 4 areas is particularly affluent (yet)
• Museum Park is gentrifying, a process that will take awhile
• Montrose is still quite rough around the edges and does not have the same quality or quantity of investment that Greater Heights is seeing, for example
• Southern Downtown is arguably the most challenged part of the CBD

Advantages: Things Midtown has going for it...

• Investments in Museum District / Montrose / and Downtown will slowly bleed into Midtown and help establish sustainable momentum for Midtown
• There are now some very nice nodes within Midtown that - if maintained - can grow and slowly link together to make Midtown more consistently nice (Innovation District / Midtown Park / HCC Campus)

Disadvantages / Challenges: Problems that do not go away overnight

• The transient population has been an issue for quite some time. They don't disappear overnight... I have no idea how to enact real change here.
• "Clubs" - no one wants to live next to these. Clubs come and go at a fast pace and generally do not add to quality of life and attract traffic and people who do not respect the area
• Maintenance - If you drive down Main, you will see the nice new steel street signs are largely damaged. Landscaping does not look maintained. If we want to see the area improve, we cannot allow for the money and effort fall to waste.

 

= Midtown cannot transform into a beautiful urban butterfly without going through the natural course of development. The developments we have seen could be the start of some good things. Houston is just too large for all the development to focus in on Midtown (yet). Neartown / Washington / and even Montrose are in a better position to make the shift to quality urbanism before Midtown, due to their proximity to wealth. We will have to be patient and allow Midtown to patiently wait while the other areas reach their potential before it is Midtown's time to fully blossom. My prediction: Midtown will improve at a slower pace than the other areas for the next 10-20 years. Once major tracts in Montrose / Washington / Neartown are scarce and highly valued, you will see an explosion of development as the opportunity will finally be focused on Midtown!

[clutchcity94]

1 hour ago, Avossos said:

Montrose is still quite rough around the edges and does not have the same quality or quantity of investment that Greater Heights is seeing, for example.

Why do you think that is? If I’m not mistaken, ppsf land values are higher in Montrose than the Heights.

[Avossos]

15 minutes ago, clutchcity94 said:

Why do you think that is? If I’m not mistaken, ppsf land values are higher in Montrose than the Heights.

You're right on the value of land. My comment was more of an observation of the quality of existing development. I believe there is a lot of existing development that is past it's effective use in Montrose. There are multiple layers of redevelopment needed. Ex: 1880-1940 historic homes / 1950s light industrial / 1960's apartments / 1970's small offices / 1980's townhomes / 1990's-2000's strip centers - all needing repair or replacement. I would say there is still 60% of properties in Montrose still needing this kind of attention. All these things contribute to a somewhat disjointed and occasionally 'rough around the edges' community. Developers have every option possible when they choose to invest in Montrose.

The Heights is a bit more consistent - historic neighborhood (homes) with light retail. As of recently, some urban apartments along main drags. Sure they have light industry and strip centers, but overall a more consistent and concise area for investors - not to mention a cheaper entry price.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Avossos

[Texasota]

Most of the historic homes are well maintained at this point. Many of the 1960s apartments as well.

Montrose is not consistent, but the idea that it's "rough around the edges" at this point is pretty absurd. It hasn't gotten much in the way of recent large scale development, but that's because it was already much more stable than a lot of other neighborhoods. And of course you *are* getting large scale redevelopment on the edges. W Dallas being the obvious corridor. 

[H-Town Man]

34 minutes ago, Avossos said:

You're right on the value of land. My comment was more of an observation of the quality of existing development. I believe there is a lot of existing development that is past it's effective use in Montrose. There are multiple layers of redevelopment needed. Ex: 1880-1940 historic homes / 1950s light industrial / 1960's apartments / 1970's small offices / 1980's townhomes / 1990's-2000's strip centers - all needing repair or replacement. I would say there is still 60% of properties in Montrose still needing this kind of attention. All these things contribute to a somewhat disjointed and occasionally 'rough around the edges' community. Developers have every option possible when they choose to invest in Montrose.

The Heights is a bit more consistent - historic neighborhood (homes) with light retail. As of recently, some urban apartments along main drags. Sure they have light industry and strip centers, but overall a more consistent and concise area for investors - not to mention a cheaper entry price.

Probably the reason small things don't get renovated and kept up in Montrose is that people are just waiting to sell it to a midrise/highrise developer. This is also why in most of downtown, small things stopped getting renovated sometime around 1970 or so, although there has been a revival in certain areas.

 

[H-Town Man]

21 hours ago, Avossos said:

Midtown cannot transform into a beautiful urban butterfly without going through the natural course of development. The developments we have seen could be the start of some good things. Houston is just too large for all the development to focus in on Midtown (yet). Neartown / Washington / and even Montrose are in a better position to make the shift to quality urbanism before Midtown, due to their proximity to wealth. We will have to be patient and allow Midtown to patiently wait while the other areas reach their potential before it is Midtown's time to fully blossom. My prediction: Midtown will improve at a slower pace than the other areas for the next 10-20 years. Once major tracts in Montrose / Washington / Neartown are scarce and highly valued, you will see an explosion of development as the opportunity will finally be focused on Midtown!

I'm skeptical of some of this. 20-25 years ago, Midtown already had a fast-growing population. I think I saw something a few years ago that said Midtown and Montrose had more housing units constructed in the past decade than any other neighborhood in the city. There's no reason it should have to wait for other neighborhoods to reach their potential, whatever that potential is. (They may have already reached it, they may never reach it...) In Dallas, Deep Ellum was about as dingy as Midtown before it exploded. And Midtown has exploded, it's just hitting a limit right now. One thing that might help along Main Street is if Camden's project would ever open up and start leasing, you'd have more people on the ground which would deter some of the vagrants and vandalism.

[Avossos]

1 minute ago, H-Town Man said:

I'm skeptical of some of this. 20-25 years ago, Midtown already had a fast-growing population. I think I saw something a few years ago that said Midtown and Montrose had more housing units constructed in the past decade than any other neighborhood in the city. There's no reason it should have to wait for other neighborhoods to reach their potential, whatever that potential is. (They may have already reached it, they may never reach it...) In Dallas, Deep Ellum was about as dingy as Midtown before it exploded. And Midtown has exploded, it's just hitting a limit right now. One thing that might help along Main Street is if Camden's project would ever open up and start leasing, you'd have more people on the ground which would deter some of the vagrants and vandalism.

These are all small drops in a very very big pond... one / 2 / 20 apartments aren't going to change all of Midtown. you need hundreds of blocks to get some love in order for that to happen.

 

What Camden project has not started leasing? the one by the park? I thought it was done and leased up?

[Houston19514]

On 6/23/2021 at 10:40 PM, jmitch94 said:

Love when developers come in and buy out a business that adds to the community all to just demo the building and add nothing. Hopefully they sell the land and can bring in a developer with some power to get stuff done. 

In fairness, that developer did deliver a 27-story high rise.

[H-Town Man]

4 minutes ago, Avossos said:

These are all small drops in a very very big pond... one / 2 / 20 apartments aren't going to change all of Midtown. you need hundreds of blocks to get some love in order for that to happen.

 

What Camden project has not started leasing? the one by the park? I thought it was done and leased up?

But if it's the fastest growing neighborhood in the city, it sounds like it doesn't need a major change, it already is changing. Just needs to continue changing.

It might be helpful to talk about different sections of Midtown. Southwest Midtown seems very healthy and thriving, at least from Elgin down to around Richmond, and west of Main. Northwest Midtown was the first area to develop, although it kind of petered out going eastward. North central and northeast Midtown are the areas where large-scale development hasn't worked yet.

Yes, you are right about the Camden project.

 

[Houston19514]

Yeah, I'm a little perplexed about the basis of this whole conversation.  Two high-rises were just completed in Midtown, restaurants, bars and other businesses have been popping up like crazy over the past few years.  Why all this talk about slow/no development?

[Houston19514]

On 6/24/2021 at 9:32 AM, H-Town Man said:

It is the future I see... Camden will buy the land at a rock-bottom foreclosure sale price, then sit on it for ten years. Then they will build a gated, garden-style apartment complex with a high wall. As they do so, they will say that mixed-use development just doesn't work in Houston, although they continue to pursue it with their projects in Atlanta, Charlotte, and Dallas.

 

Just curious, what mixed-use projects has Camden done in Dallas?

[bobruss]

• Maintenance - If you drive down Main, you will see the nice new steel street signs are largely damaged. Landscaping does not look maintained. If we want to see the area improve, we cannot allow for the money and effort fall to waste.

 

Do you think maybe they're spending all of the money that would normally go for maintenance,  to buy up properties in Third ward.

Actually the maintenance along the rail lines are probably under the jurisdiction of Metro. Since they've had no paying riders for the last year I'm sure their budget is far from adequate to do maintenance and a lot of the plantings they had died in the freeze. So I'll give them a break on that. It does look very sad along the lines with all of the dead plants and the disrepair in some parts.

[dbigtex56]

21 hours ago, Avossos said:

My comment was more of an observation of the quality of existing development. I believe there is a lot of existing development that is past it's effective use in Montrose. There are multiple layers of redevelopment needed. Ex: 1880-1940 historic homes

Forgive me if this seems nit-picky but I'm unaware of any 19th century houses in Montrose.

[dbigtex56]

21 minutes ago, bobruss said:

Since they've had no paying riders for the last year I'm sure their budget is far from adequate to do maintenance and a lot of the plantings they had died in the freeze.

METRO resumed charging fares on July 12th 2020. Fares were waived on March 23, 2020.
Three and a half months of collecting no fares doubtlessly had an effect on their budget, but it's my understanding that fares cover only a small portion of METRO's operating costs. 

[clutchcity94]

58 minutes ago, dbigtex56 said:

Forgive me if this seems nit-picky but I'm unaware of any 19th century houses in Montrose.

Mine is 1910, so close!

[dbigtex56]

4 minutes ago, clutchcity94 said:

Mine is 1910, so close!

Cool. 
From what I've read, development in the Montrose area started with the establishment of Westmoreland subdivision.(1902). 
I might have to retract my earlier statement about there being no 19th century houses. Someone told me that the former Robin's Nest B&B at 4104 Greeley St. was a farmhouse that predates the later developments in the area. Whether or not that's true I cannot say.

[Houston19514]

57 minutes ago, dbigtex56 said:

METRO resumed charging fares on July 12th 2020. Fares were waived on March 23, 2020.
Three and a half months of collecting no fares doubtlessly had an effect on their budget, but it's my understanding that fares cover only a small portion of METRO's operating costs. 

Yes, but it's still a LOT of money.  I believe Metro was collecting around $75 Million per year in passenger fares prior to the pandemic.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Houston19514

[H-Town Man]

3 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

Just curious, what mixed-use projects has Camden done in Dallas?

I just threw out a few cities. It was a joke. I guess you searched the internet for all three and found that they hadn't done any in Dallas?

 

[H-Town Man]

3 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

Yeah, I'm a little perplexed about the basis of this whole conversation.  Two high-rises were just completed in Midtown, restaurants, bars and other businesses have been popping up like crazy over the past few years.  Why all this talk about slow/no development?

Because the two largest private developments that were brewing in Midtown both just failed. A two-block parcel of land that somebody paid $20 million for a few years ago is now in a foreclosure sale.

It is fine if you don't think this is significant. But what in your opinion would be significant? Would giant cracks have to appear in the streets and buildings start collapsing?

[clutchcity94]

21 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

Because the two largest private developments that were brewing in Midtown both just failed. A two-block parcel of land that somebody paid $20 million for a few years ago is now in a foreclosure sale.

It is fine if you don't think this is significant. But what in your opinion would be significant? Would giant cracks have to appear in the streets and buildings start collapsing?

At least there’s The Ion!

[Houston19514]

29 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

I just threw out a few cities. It was a joke. I guess you searched the internet for all three and found that they hadn't done any in Dallas?

 

Ahhh, so you're just making stuff up.  Got it.  Glad we cleared that up.  😉

[H-Town Man]

1 minute ago, Houston19514 said:

Ahhh, so you're just making stuff up.  Got it.  Glad we cleared that up.  😉

Was it not already clear that that post was entirely humorous? I suppose you think that when I started off "It is the future I see" that I was really claiming to be able to see the future. And if I were to now admit that I cannot actually see the future, you would post triumphally that you caught me in a lie.

 

[Houston19514]

28 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

Because the two largest private developments that were brewing in Midtown both just failed. A two-block parcel of land that somebody paid $20 million for a few years ago is now in a foreclosure sale.

It is fine if you don't think this is significant. But what in your opinion would be significant? Would giant cracks have to appear in the streets and buildings start collapsing?

Sure, that would be significant, but so is the context. Pandemic and all... Not to mention the fact that proposed projects "fail" all the time, all over town, even in Dallas.  Remind me.. what is the second of the two largest private developments that were brewing?

Edited June 25, 2021 by Houston19514

[hindesky]

3 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

Sure, that would be significant, but so is the context. Pandemic and all... Not to mention the fact that proposed projects "fail" all the time, all over town, even in Dallas.  Remind me.. what is the second of the two largest private developments that were brewing?

The Mix

 

[H-Town Man]

5 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

Sure, that would be significant, but so is the context. Pandemic and all... Not to mention the fact that proposed projects "fail" all the time, all over town, even in Dallas.  Remind me.. what is the second of the two largest private developments that were brewing.

Of course it's largely because of the pandemic. I'm pretty sure I mentioned as much before. But it's still a setback for the area. It's sort of like, if I were to say in 1986, "Things are really rough downtown now, a couple of new office buildings have just foreclosed." And you said, "Well, it's just because of the oil bust." Yeah. It's because of the oil bust. And the oil bust has exposed a couple of long term issues with downtown that were hidden when things were good (shift of development westward and to the suburbs). But regardless of the causes, it's still a rough time for downtown.

What does Dallas have to do with anything?

The two largest private developments that were brewing were Laneways and The Mix.

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by H-Town Man

[Houston19514]

17 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

Of course it's largely because of the pandemic. I'm pretty sure I mentioned as much before. But it's still a setback for the area. It's sort of like, if I were to say in 1986, "Things are really rough downtown now, a couple of new office buildings have just foreclosed." And you said, "Well, it's just because of the oil bust." Yeah. It's because of the oil bust. And the oil bust has exposed a couple of long term issues with downtown that were hidden when things were good (shift of development westward and to the suburbs). But regardless of the causes, it's still a rough time for downtown.

What does Dallas have to do with anything?

The two largest private developments that were brewing were Laneways and The Mix.

 

Except that's not all I'm saying. I'm disagreeing with the premise.  I don't thinks look rough or hopeless for Midtown. The cancellation of a proposed development (especially a development like Laneways) is of course disappointing, but as I mentioned above, that happens all the time, in all markets. It doesn't mean the end of Midtown. Given the huge amount of development in Midtown in recent years, it might just be time for the market to catch it's breath, so to speak.