GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[quietstorm]

1 hour ago, Jbarn said:

 

How active was the other 95% of downtown?

Main Street, Phoenicia and even Green Street were busy; but since much of downtown is comprised of singular buildings on whole blocks (i.e., BoA, Chase) with no ground floor retail, I expect downtown will continue to have weekend and after 5 pm "dead zones" outside of Discovery Green, Market Square, Main St, Theater District, etc.  If street vendor ordinances  are changed, it may help somewhat. We will also have to see what, if any, activity builds around the new residential, HSPVA, etc.

[102IAHexpress]

16 hours ago, quietstorm said:

Main Street, Phoenicia and even Green Street were busy; but since much of downtown is comprised of singular buildings on whole blocks (i.e., BoA, Chase) with no ground floor retail, I expect downtown will continue to have weekend and after 5 pm "dead zones" outside of Discovery Green, Market Square, Main St, Theater District, etc.  If street vendor ordinances  are changed, it may help somewhat. We will also have to see what, if any, activity builds around the new residential, HSPVA, etc.

 

We don't have to wait to see if any activity builds around the new residential. There's evidence already around existing residential. 420 Main Street, has a perfect location according to HAIF, in front of not just the light rail but the light rail platform, behind a huge residential community (Rice Lofts), even near a park. Yet, all the grocery stores that have operated in that location have failed. Dead Zone indeed.

[quietstorm]

4 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

We don't have to wait to see if any activity builds around the new residential. There's evidence already around existing residential. 420 Main Street, has a perfect location according to HAIF, in front of not just the light rail but the light rail platform, behind a huge residential community (Rice Lofts), even near a park. Yet, all the grocery stores that have operated in that location have failed. Dead Zone indeed.

What 'grocery stores' are you referring to?  If you're speaking of Byrd Market (Georgia's), (1) that was a specialty store and not a traditional grocer, (2) the absence of said specialty store does not negate the businesses that have opened in the area since to DT living initiative (e.g., Local Foods).

Edited May 13, 2017 by quietstorm

[KinkaidAlum]

Big Dig was a hot mess in terms of budget and time delays but the Big Dig was great. It added a new tunnel under the harbor connecting the Mass Pike with Boston Logan Airport. It completely buried I-93 through downtown by removing a horrible elevated freeway that separated the North End/Harbor from the Financial District. It was replaced with a parkway and new development. It added a beautiful new signature bridge and really changed the entire dynamic of that small city.

 

This is just a massive freeway/spaghetti expansion with "maybe" some buried sections that'll one day be covered with parks if we locals can raised a couple hundred millions of dollars. 

[102IAHexpress]

3 hours ago, quietstorm said:

What 'grocery stores' are you referring to?  If you're speaking of Byrd Market (Georgia's), (1) that was a specialty store and not a traditional grocer, (2) the absence of said specialty store does not negate the businesses that have opened in the area since to DT living initiative (e.g., Local Foods).

 

You cannot negate the few business that have opened with all the ones that have failed prior to the new businesses opening. Georgia's should have been perfect for the neighborhood. A small sized Whole Foods concept with local produce catering to high end shoppers that lived at Rice. It didn't last too long. Neither did Byrds prior to Georgia's, nor whatever was their prior to Byrds. Their is a vicious cycle of failed business next to the light rail in downtown.

[UtterlyUrban]

2 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

You cannot negate the few business that have opened with all the ones that have failed prior to the new businesses opening. Georgia's should have been perfect for the neighborhood. A small sized Whole Foods concept with local produce catering to high end shoppers that lived at Rice. It didn't last too long. Neither did Byrds prior to Georgia's, nor whatever was their prior to Byrds. Their is a vicious cycle of failed business next to the light rail in downtown.

Many on HAIF will suggest that light rail is a cure all for everything from economic development to Parkinson's to acne to prison riots.  I am a bit more reserved than that.  I do feel that light rail brings some level of economic activity but I also feel that it actually is impossible to say "how much"?.

 

for instance, suppose that instead of light rail, the city simply closed main in downtown to vehicles and made it a pedestrian mall with bike lanes.   Cost?  Small by comparison.  Impact?  More than doing nothing.  Would the level of economic activity been more or less?  Impossible to tell.

 

rail is good.  Perhaps even very good.  But, Other things are good too.  Maybe just as good.   Rail does not cure Parkinson's.  

[KinkaidAlum]

LOL. Light rail opened in 2004. The Byrds Loft Building wasn't converted until 2005 so those businesses didn't exist before the rail. Those businesses failed because they were awful. Bad food. Little inventory. High prices. Good riddance. Local is going to kill it in that same spot. 

[kbates2]

Georgia's Market just sucked.

[102IAHexpress]

17 hours ago, KinkaidAlum said:

LOL. Light rail opened in 2004. The Byrds Loft Building wasn't converted until 2005 so those businesses didn't exist before the rail. Those businesses failed because they were awful. Bad food. Little inventory. High prices. Good riddance. Local is going to kill it in that same spot. 

 

LOL so which is it? The light rail caused the development of those business yet played no role in their demise?! Can't have it both ways. Georgia's concept (local farm to market food) may have been awful to you, but that same concept has worked at their Katy Freeway location.

[Texasota]

Regardless of their concept, Georgia's execution was poor. They could never decide whether they wanted to be a market or a deli, so they were unsuccessful at both. 

 

Obviously it *is* possible to successful at both, but Georgia's was not.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Texasota

[Houston19514]

3 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

LOL so which is it? The light rail caused the development of those business yet played no role in their demise?! Can't have it both ways. 

 

Actually, there is no reason it can't be both.

[102IAHexpress]

2 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

 

Actually, there is no reason it can't be both.

 

Except the only common denominator is the light rail. If a business operates a franchise at two locations and one fails and the other one does not then at some point you have to make conclusions about one of those locations. A different example is Chipotle just down the street on Main and Texas. That Chipotle can't even successfully operate its business on the weekend. Is Chipotle an awful business? Is there some secret to the other Chipotle's in Houston that operate on the weekends? Perhaps the simplest explanation is that the light rail doesn't bring in enough customers to that Chipolte on the weekend. Perhaps the light rail doesn't bring in any customers to that Chipotle even on weekdays. Perhaps the parking restrictions around the rail line have made it so drivers would rather avoid the businesses along the rail if the same business exists somewhere else and with free parking.

[KinkaidAlum]

Yes. The only thing different between the Katy market and the downtown market is the light rail. Rents are the same. Parking is the same. Demographics are the same. Physical locations are the same. It's just the light rail that's different...

 

Georgia's Market failed because it was a horrible concept for that location. The space was way too small (and HORRIBLY underutilized for the price for square foot you'd need to make it in that location) to call itself a market and I am willing to guess they bit off more than they could chew because it was often understocked, understaffed, and almost always underwhelming. 

 

Quite a few well known inner loop brands have moved downtown and done well despite the killer train. Maybe, just maybe, Georgia was at fault and not the Midnight train!

 

[cspwal]

That Chipotle has expanded their hours to include dinner hours during the week.  They had weekend hours during the Superbowl, but cut back.  I think they want to run exactly one shift and one team.

 

I went to to Georgia's market to try to shop many times, and every time came back with failure.  The only produce I bought there was lemons, and most of their stock seemed like spices and herbs.  In downtown, Phoenicia was and is a much better specialty store.  I don't know about the Georgia's market outside of downtown, but I bet that it was more isolated from other specialty stores and a bigger store.

[102IAHexpress]

9 hours ago, KinkaidAlum said:

Quite a few well known inner loop brands have moved downtown and done well despite the killer train. Maybe, just maybe, Georgia was at fault and not the Midnight train!

 

 

Fair enough, I want them to succeed despite the killer train. Lets hope those businesses last for a long time.

 

However, just off the top of my head, what about Goro & Gun which HAIF was in love with? Also an awful business?  What about Tacqueria La Marco on the light rail line (although not in downtown) closed and relocated to the Washington Street area instead, Also awful business?

[samagon]

16 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

LOL so which is it? The light rail caused the development of those business yet played no role in their demise?! Can't have it both ways. Georgia's concept (local farm to market food) may have been awful to you, but that same concept has worked at their Katy Freeway location.

 

You can open a business in the best location possible, and there are many reasons that it might fail. Just as opening a business in a bad location doesn't mean it is going to fail.

[Houston19514]

1 hour ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

Fair enough, I want them to succeed despite the killer train. Lets hope those businesses last for a long time.

 

However, just off the top of my head, what about Goro & Gun which HAIF was in love with? Also an awful business?  What about Tacqueria La Marco on the light rail line (although not in downtown) closed and relocated to the Washington Street area instead, Also awful business?

 

So, by your logic, every failed downtown business failed because of the rail line.  But what about the successful ones?  I guess we just have to ignore those?  And what about the failed bars and restaurants not on or near the rail line?  How do you explain those?

Edited May 15, 2017 by Houston19514

[rechlin]

1 hour ago, 102IAHexpress said:

However, just off the top of my head, what about Goro & Gun which HAIF was in love with?

 

Goro and Gun is still around.  They just rebranded as Moving Sidewalk and got rid of the food.

[downtownian]

47 minutes ago, rechlin said:

 

Goro and Gun is still around.  They just rebranded as Moving Sidewalk and got rid of the food.

 

That's really pushing the Ship of Theseus 

[102IAHexpress]

1 hour ago, Houston19514 said:

 

So, by your logic, every failed downtown business failed because of the rail line.  But what about the successful ones?  I guess we just have to ignore those?  And what about the failed bars and restaurants not on or near the rail line?  How do you explain those?

 

No, but by the logic of many on this forum (per Bobruss' post a few pages back) the light rail was the reason for a "billion dollars of construction development and improvements for the general public, etc". In my opinion that is a claim with almost no evidence for support. Which is why i posted in the first place. On the other hand there is evidence that many developers received tax breaks for developing in downtown. And that those developments also developed huge parking garages. There is also evidence that many business have failed along the light rail in downtown. For example, shops that left Houston Pavilions, ground floor vacancies that are still available at GreenStreet, failed restaurants, bars, grocery stores, etc. Even during the construction of the light rail businesses were affected. The Metropolitan Transit Authority admitted as much by setting up a grant for businesses to receive compensation due to the light rail construction.

 

If the light rail is so successful and so beneficial for downtown then the CoH doesn't need to provide tax breaks to developers in downtown right?

 

 

[samagon]

2 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

No, but by the logic of many on this forum (per Bobruss' post a few pages back) the light rail was the reason for a "billion dollars of construction development and improvements for the general public, etc". In my opinion that is a claim with almost no evidence for support. Which is why i posted in the first place. On the other hand there is evidence that many developers received tax breaks for developing in downtown. And that those developments also developed huge parking garages. There is also evidence that many business have failed along the light rail in downtown. For example, shops that left Houston Pavilions, ground floor vacancies that are still available at GreenStreet, failed restaurants, bars, grocery stores, etc. Even during the construction of the light rail businesses were affected. The Metropolitan Transit Authority admitted as much by setting up a grant for businesses to receive compensation due to the light rail construction.

 

If the light rail is so successful and so beneficial for downtown then the CoH doesn't need to provide tax breaks to developers in downtown right?

 

 

 

I don't think anyone has ever said that light rail is the only reason for development.

 

Many people have said and are saying that the red line was influential in helping businesses decide where to locate.

 

Maybe they are saying more than that.. 

 

Here:

If you are reading this and you believe that the red line is the sole reason for all the downtown development in the past 15 years, please quote this post and say "YES".

 

Meanwhile, you've said things like "It was wasted money."  "no one on this forum has ever been able to show me evidence of development along the downtown portion of the red line attributed to the rail line itself." "The light rail is a cool toy. It's not a serious people mover." 

 

It's not wasted money, as you pointed out, it replaced multiple bus lines, that's less buses traveling the streets, the service life of a light rail vehicle is far greater than that of a bus. the amount of staff required to operate and maintain a LRV is way less than a bus. Sure, it may have cost a lot to build the rail, but over the lifetime of the service area, the light rail is far more economical. 

 

It is a serious mover. 50,000 people per day use it.

 

See my post from last week regarding your comment about the bias businesses have towards choosing to build near light rail.

 

It is a cool toy, there's no denying that. We need more toys.

 

And on top of that, it does help spur development. help being the key word.

 

 

On 5/12/2017 at 4:35 PM, Jbarn said:

How active was the other 95% of downtown?

 

to kind of keep it closer to the subject, I can answer this!

 

I walked from my office in Chase Tower to the baseball game (12:30pm) on Wednesday. Then I walked to Bigio's (maybe 4:30? I dunno, after the game). Then I walked through the park and over to House of Blues to meet some friends (6:15ish). Then I walked back to my car at Chase Tower.

 

Lunch on a business day, it was busy everywhere. Lots of people walking to the game even (a lot more than I normally see on a businessman special).

 

Going from Bigio's to HoB there were lots of people in Disco, but once I got past there, no more peds than a normal night.

 

Going from HoB to my car, I intentionally walked up Dallas, the sparkly sidewalk gets me every time. Anyway, there were more people walking on Dallas than there ever were before the change. But counting myself there were like 4 of us. At main I turned right to get up to Capitol. On main there were even more peds. I still felt as uncomfortable as I ever do going by the Main Food Store.

 

But yeah, I think that people that went from there office to the party probably walked, so they had to get back to their cars (I assume!).

 

This past weekend for Comicpalooza, there were people everywhere in downtown. I again had parked at my office to get to the event. 

 

Additionally, a few weeks ago (I guess almost months ago now) the streets were packed for the art car parade. and not just on the parade route, but everywhere.

 

I wouldn't attribute any of the additional downtown pedestrian traffic to the retail district though.

Edited May 15, 2017 by samagon

[Moore713]

The problem to many are trying to treat it as a zero sum game. While the rail is not the sole reason of development it has by the very business themselves been identified as a major factor in their decisions. Even outside if the main line the rail has played a part in development see third ward as student housing is being constructed near close to the rail line as well as not one but two high schools being constructed a long those lines.

 

[Mab]

Quote

Shifting from the traditional corporate cubicle, The Concept at GreenStreet offers entrepreneurs and big businesses alike the opportunity to create a more collaborative and innovative work environment surrounded by amenities within the heart of Downtown Houston.

With floor plates between 5,000 and 37,000 SF available for a one-of-a-kind office environment, The Concept features 18’ ceilings, rectangular spaces with no core to create efficient and dynamic environments and the opportunity to create mezzanines and indoor and outdoor break areas.

 

 

http://greenstreetdowntown.com/media/site_media/170216_The_Concept_Leasing_Package_reduced.pdf 

 

 

any idea on this new rendering? 

Edited May 17, 2017 by Mab

[Urbannizer]

1 hour ago, Mab said:

http://greenstreetdowntown.com/media/site_media/170216_The_Concept_Leasing_Package_reduced.pdf 

 

 

any idea on this new rendering? 

 

 

Appears to be 1111 Main project from Dallas St & Fannin. GreenStreet expansion?

 

Edit: It is indeed 1111 Main, 1010 Lamar can be seen on the right.

[Nate99]

https://goo.gl/maps/G7qTY3Ugmvs

 

[Twinsanity02]

So what is the tall shiny building where the old Sakowitz store was?  Is this something planned or just artistic baloney?

[H-Town Man]

Looks pretty nice. I had been thinking the city's RFP specified residential here, but maybe it is mixed use?

 

One must keep in mind how many of the design elements could be whittled away in later renderings...

 

[Urbannizer]

16 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

Looks pretty nice. I had been thinking the city's RFP specified residential here, but maybe it is mixed use?

 

One must keep in mind how many of the design elements could be whittled away in later renderings...

 

 

There's balconies pass the 8th level, residential above office?

[Nate99]

39 minutes ago, Twinsanity02 said:

So what is the tall shiny building where the old Sakowitz store was?  Is this something planned or just artistic baloney?

 

There's a thread somewhere about the re-development of 1111 Main somewhere. The city solicited bids for some project to do something with it, though it was short on particulars. Retail and residential were involved IIRC.

 

I didn't think anything ever came of it baloney or otherwise, or at least anything that was released publically. I interpreted silence as the idea dying of neglect, but I don't actually know anything.

[102IAHexpress]

On 5/15/2017 at 5:04 PM, Moore713 said:

 Even outside if the main line the rail has played a part in development see third ward as student housing is being constructed near close to the rail line as well as not one but two high schools being constructed a long those lines.

 

 

It doesn't surprise me that publicly funded schools happened to be built near public transportation. That is not news. Just about every high school in HISD is on a Metro bus line.

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2017 by 102IAHexpress