GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[Nole23]

17 minutes ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

Well, the tunnels account for dozens if not hundreds of restaurants not being open in the evening and weekends. But okay, you just want to count the street level restaurants? I can't remember them all but just places I have been to on weekdays not open on weekends:

 

Closed on the weekends:

Cafe Express

La Palapa

Corner Bakery

Jason's Deli (both downtown street level locations)

Eats Mesquite Grill

Lone Start Taco Co

 

Closed on Sundays

Pperbacco

Pad Thai

Azuma

 

I'm sure there are others I have missed.
 

 

My apologies, yes I am referring to street level restaurants as the tunnels are only there for the work crowd. With that said, most street level restaurants are open on weeknights and weekends. I'm not even going to bother to list them all as there are just too many. A few years ago this was a different story, but now with all of the new places opening up and more people gravitating toward downtown, we are definitely not short of places to go on the weekends with more coming online soon.

[samagon]

3 hours ago, cspwal said:

All the new places at discovery green are all day restraunts

The newer stuff around market square, plus Frank's and Roma's stay open for dinner

All the steak houses, your pie, the places in greenstreet - they're all open for dinner

What isn't are the places in the tunnels and that Chipolte that just taunts me every saturday

 

It's not worth it to get in a discussion about a static snapshot of today only. You have to look at the bigger picture, and when you do that, there's no question of where things will be in 5 or 10 years.

 

Look at the historic trend over a 10, or 20 year period. There is no doubt that if you look at that you'd see that downtown is shifting for dining options.

 

Furthermore, as rents go up for GFR the places that choose to only be open for lunch won't have any option but to charge more for lunch, close for good, or open for dinner. 

 

Tunnel restaurants aren't even worth discussing here because it's not an even comparison. It's like comparing oranges to spaceships. They have specific operating restrictions that the GFR places do not.

Edited June 2, 2017 by samagon

[Houston19514]

Not to mention, there are over 100 open on weekends now.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Houston19514

[102IAHexpress]

1 hour ago, Nole23 said:

 

My apologies, yes I am referring to street level restaurants as the tunnels are only there for the work crowd. With that said, most street level restaurants are open on weeknights and weekends. I'm not even going to bother to list them all as there are just too many. A few years ago this was a different story, but now with all of the new places opening up and more people gravitating toward downtown, we are definitely not short of places to go on the weekends with more coming online soon.

 

I think the new places opening up have to be examined more closely because they really cater to visitors/tourists (non-downtowners) who are visiting or as you say "gravitating" to downtown. I believe the current social trends will continue; the restaurants that will do well are the ones that can adapt to the food delivery trends and the ones that can also sell lots of beer/wine/alcohol (can't order alcohol via an app). Therefore bars around entertainment venues (which downtown has lots of; Minute Maid Park, Dynamo, Theatre District, Bowling, etc.) will continue to be popular in downtown as people gravitate to drinking before/after games and performances. Bigio's new sports bar near Minute Maid is an example. The restaurants that cater to the theatre district is another. And unfortunately very popular lunch time places for downtown regulars (like Chipolte) that do not also serve alcohol will have a hard time in downtown in the evenings and weekends. What we are seeing is that most street level restaurants (see my partial list above) will remain closed on the weekends because they are not near an entertainment venue or because they don't sell alcohol or don't sell enough alcohol and therefore will not be popular with downtown visitors. The restaurants that are open on the weekends are really bars that also sell food for the non locals that are just visiting downtown. There are very few true downtown neighborhood restaurants for locals of downtown (one of my favorites is Hearsay in market square).

[102IAHexpress]

4 hours ago, Nole23 said:

 

My apologies, yes I am referring to street level restaurants as the tunnels are only there for the work crowd.

 

Also, I could see how you would think the tunnels are only for the work crowd, but as someone who has lived and worked in downtown I can also sympathize with my former neighbors who think the street level restaurants near the entertainment venues are only for the tourist crowd and not for downtown locals.

[IronTiger]

20 minutes ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

Also, I could see how you would think the tunnels are only for the work crowd, but as someone who has lived and worked in downtown I can also sympathize with my former neighbors who think the street level restaurants near the entertainment venues are only for the tourist crowd and not for downtown locals.

But they really are for the work crowd. Generally, you'd have to know that the tunnels exist, they aren't advertised all that well save for banners downtown that say something like "a maze of tunnels to explore" or something along those lines.

 

I'm not anti-tunnel or anything, but I can't go down there without the phrase "you are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike" coming to mind.

[cspwal]

Also they close at 6 on the weekdays and even earlier on Saturday 

[UtterlyUrban]

At lunch time M-F and even during the day, I am personally always surprised how many "tourists" are in the tunnels.  How do I know that they are "tourists"?  Well, I don't know for sure but when one sees momma bear wearing shorts a tee and sandals,  daddy bear wearing cargo shorts and a tee and kiddie bears of all ages, And the whole family "wandering for food, hair salons, or jewelry repair", i can make a bet that they aren't going to work in an office.  

 

Lots of folks --- including lots of "tourists", kids on "group dates" (during the summer) -- use the tunnels other than local worker bees.

[BeerNut]

Walking around downtown during the day there are "Houston Ambassadors" promoting the tunnels.  I met this woman in Atlanta that mentioned the tunnels like it was cool thing to check out.  For me personally when meeting friends for lunch I try to find the closest tunnel entrance to the meeting place.   

[UtterlyUrban]

56 minutes ago, BeerNut said:

Walking around downtown during the day there are "Houston Ambassadors" promoting the tunnels.  I met this woman in Atlanta that mentioned the tunnels like it was cool thing to check out.  For me personally when meeting friends for lunch I try to find the closest tunnel entrance to the meeting place.   

Yep.  Those "Ambassadors" are terrific men and women.  Friendly and always smiling.  Always saying hello. Proactive.  Well trained and a credit to themselves and the city they represent.  I find them fantastic and a great resource. If we had a few more of them, tourists might actually remember them more than the bums and the crazies that they have to dodge.

 

 

[samagon]

On 6/2/2017 at 6:05 PM, IronTiger said:

But they really are for the work crowd. Generally, you'd have to know that the tunnels exist, they aren't advertised all that well save for banners downtown that say something like "a maze of tunnels to explore" or something along those lines.

 

I'm not anti-tunnel or anything, but I can't go down there without the phrase "you are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike" coming to mind.

 

The tunnels are for people working downtown just like the restaurants above ground are for tourists.

 

It's goal post moving to try and prove a point that has already been proven wrong.

 

I work downtown. Every day I see families (and more-so during the summer, or other school breaks) visiting downtown at lunch time. Their question: How do I get in the tunnels?

 

So no, the tunnels are not for the people working downtown only.

 

The only way the tunnel restaurants aren't a fair comparison to the street level restaurants is because they can only operate during specific times and access to them, unless you know how to access them, is pretty hard.

 

I live in the east end, but I spend a lot of my time downtown after work and weekends (someone pays for my parking garage access, so why not?)... Does that make me a tourist?

 

First of all, who cares whether tourists or residents are the main proprietors of the restaurants? A: Money in the doors is money in the doors. B: The discussion is staying open for dinner, not for whom they stay open for dinner.

 

Second of all, there is no second of all.

[102IAHexpress]

4 hours ago, samagon said:

 

The tunnels are for people working downtown just like the restaurants above ground are for tourists.

 

It's goal post moving to try and prove a point that has already been proven wrong.

 

 

 

The issue is the people who work downtown and who utilize the tunnels are part of the downtown neighborhood fabric (which is why it is relevant to this subforum). Although they do not live in downtown (most of them anyways) they do however rent office space, pay property taxes, have employees, etc. They have a stake in the downtown neighborhood. They and their workers also, mostly interact with downtown eateries via the tunnels.

 

Tourists on the other hand have no stake in downtown other than to visit the venue they are patronizing that night. They are drinking near Minute Maid, drinking near bowling at Lucky Strike, catching a bite before a theatre district performance. To them downtown is not really their neighborhood, instead it is just a means to go drink or entertain themselves at night and then exit back to their respective neighborhoods.

 

I could see how you think those street level restaurants that cater to the entertainment/tourist crowd add to the downtown neighborhood, but they really don't. What we need more of, and what downtown lacks is restaurants that cater to the locals of downtown. But as I mentioned earlier, food eating trends will make more of those type of eateries less economically feasible.

[mollusk]

Once upon a time the Mole People were by far the most successful at foraging for foodstuffs, which was pretty much all that endured the Flight of The Dry Goods to the Suburbs.  People from the Upper Earth were often forced to venture down into the Mole People's labyrinths in search of sustenance.  

 

But things have changed.  Yes, the Mole People still enjoy great bounty - if anything, more bounty than ever before, with offerings from around the world.  However, since many people are now coming to the Upper Earth to live, the Upper Earth has now grown its own fields to the point that they are tempting the Mole People to come out of their burrows in order to forage.  Many such places are nowhere near a bowling alley or baseball field or theater, and many stay open well into the times when it is dark enough for the Mole People to not have to shade their tender eyes.  True, some Upper Earth ventures flopped, as do some such ventures out in the far flung Lands of the Tourists, and even in the Mole People's labyrinths.  It may be difficult for those from farther away to perceive, but nevertheless more Upper Earth places of nourishment are springing forth all the time, and many of them stay alive.  Such was prophesied by the Priests of the Shiny Rail, even though they were mocked at the time.  

 

In time we shall also see who is right about preparing the earth for dry goods - whether such preparation will encourage dry goods to once again flow as now championed by the Priests of the Shiny Rail, or not, as the Skeptics insist.

 

 

[IronTiger]

4 hours ago, samagon said:

 

The tunnels are for people working downtown just like the restaurants above ground are for tourists.

 

It's goal post moving to try and prove a point that has already been proven wrong.

 

I work downtown. Every day I see families (and more-so during the summer, or other school breaks) visiting downtown at lunch time. Their question: How do I get in the tunnels?

 

So no, the tunnels are not for the people working downtown only.

 

The only way the tunnel restaurants aren't a fair comparison to the street level restaurants is because they can only operate during specific times and access to them, unless you know how to access them, is pretty hard.

 

I live in the east end, but I spend a lot of my time downtown after work and weekends (someone pays for my parking garage access, so why not?)... Does that make me a tourist?

 

First of all, who cares whether tourists or residents are the main proprietors of the restaurants? A: Money in the doors is money in the doors. B: The discussion is staying open for dinner, not for whom they stay open for dinner.

 

Second of all, there is no second of all.

"Not designed for tourists" and "not for tourists" are very different things. Even at 3:45-4 pm on a weekday, the tunnels are mostly devoid of people with only a few small groups hanging out in food courts where the food establishments are closed. I was there last Thursday, and I saw not one food court place open. Either employees were still cleaning up or they were already shut down for the day and everyone was gone. They are also, as far as I know, closed on Saturday, which is when people that work Monday to Friday might want to come down to the Houston downtown for whatever reason. Whatever tourist traffic they get during the week is not enough to justify opening Saturdays and evenings, which is why the tunnels are still thought to be primarily for downtown workers.

[samagon]

2 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

The issue is the people who work downtown and who utilize the tunnels are part of the downtown neighborhood fabric (which is why it is relevant to this subforum). Although they do not live in downtown (most of them anyways) they do however rent office space, pay property taxes, have employees, etc. They have a stake in the downtown neighborhood. They and their workers also, mostly interact with downtown eateries via the tunnels.

 

Tourists on the other hand have no stake in downtown other than to visit the venue they are patronizing that night. They are drinking near Minute Maid, drinking near bowling at Lucky Strike, catching a bite before a theatre district performance. To them downtown is not really their neighborhood, instead it is just a means to go drink or entertain themselves at night and then exit back to their respective neighborhoods.

 

I could see how you think those street level restaurants that cater to the entertainment/tourist crowd add to the downtown neighborhood, but they really don't. What we need more of, and what downtown lacks is restaurants that cater to the locals of downtown. But as I mentioned earlier, food eating trends will make more of those type of eateries less economically feasible.

 

Just because you don't value what you qualify as a tourist as part of the fabric of the neighborhood does not mean that they are not.

 

Besides, I'm curious now. At what point does an office worker become a tourist? Let me run you through a scenario of a person working downtown:

 

Person leaves work at 4:30pm.

Person enters Biggio's at 5:00pm.

Person goes to baseball game at 6:45pm.

 

At what point does this person cease to be a contributing fabric member of downtown and begin being a tourist? When they walk out of their office to walk to Biggios? When they get to Biggios? When they leave Biggios? When they get to the game? Do they cease being a tourist immediately when they leave the stadium to go get their car from where they parked that morning to go to work in their office downtown? How does this work?

[102IAHexpress]

1 hour ago, samagon said:

 

Just because you don't value what you qualify as a tourist as part of the fabric of the neighborhood does not mean that they are not.

 

 

 

They are part of a fabric, just not the downtown fabric. They are really part of the entertainment fabric that just happens to intersect parts of downtown. Accordingly, those restaurants cater to patrons of their respective entertainment venues first, and then to local downtowners second, if at all.  For example's Irma's restaurant hours based on Astros home games. Artista hours based on performance nights, etc. I lived in downtown and there were very few street level restaurants that i could count on to be open most evenings and weekends. The rest i had to look at my Astros calendar, Hobby Center calendar, etc. Not saying there weren't any open, because there were/are some, but just not as many as you would like to believe.

Edited June 5, 2017 by 102IAHexpress

[cspwal]

I would say a tourist is someone who rarely comes to downtown.  you wouldn't call someone going to first colony mall in sugar land a tourist just because they don't live in the immediate neighborhood around it - they drove there to buy some overpriced clothes, just like they did 2 weeks ago.

A tourist to me would be someone who genuinely is only downtown for something out of the ordinary.  They're from out of town, or at least from the suburbs and never come downtown except for this one occasion.  

I live downtown; am I a tourist when I go to an Astros game?  If not, then why would someone living in midtown? When does this definition start - how far do they have to come to be defined as a tourist?

 

A downtown is a collection of people doing stuff.  There will be the residents, the workers, the regulars, and the "tourists" who aren't always there.  It's all downtown activity.  The downtown activity in Houston is changing, and I would say for the better.  Last month, I had 4 people from out of town come up to me and ask for directions.  Before the Super Bowl, I had never had anyone come up to me and ask for directions.  There's people on the streets, there are places open after dark, and even the train seems to have more people waiting at the stations.  All this has happened in the last few months, like the super bowl was some sort of tipping point that turned downtown from Sleepy Downtown into Small Downtown.  It still won't rival Chicago or NYC or DC, but it's livelier than the downtown of Louisville or Lexington (where I'm from) even though those places have more stuff to do concentrated in downtown.

 

tl;dr - Downtown has a new, different feel in the last few months.

[UtterlyUrban]

Cspwal:

 

its interesting that you sense a difference in downtown pre and post Super Bowl.  Personally, I don't.  I do sense a difference around the GRB but that vision wasn't fulfilled because of the Super Bowl.  Otherwise, in the rest of downtown, I just see a steady march of new residential coming online and some new entertainment venues.  Again, nothing to do with the Super Bowl IMO.

 

that said, in light of your thoughts,  I am going to reassess my thinking.  You may well be correct and I just don't see it.

[samagon]

disco green is absolutely different from pre-sb. there are people walking the avenida, there are people sitting on the patios in the restaurants. This is in the evenings.

 

some of it, I'm sure, is the astros winning and people coming to games when they are in town. I wonder how attendance is this year compared with previous years, even last year, or the year before?

 

but yeah, whether the people there are genuinely tourists from different cities only here for a convention, or whether they are people who have lived in OPP for 8 years, it doesn't matter one bit. They are all walking 98.6's fulfilling someone's vision. Is it a flash in the pan that goes away after a year? Who can tell, but I doubt it.

 

The real question is, when does the retail district on Dallas kick into gear? Is the city going to offer incentives for buildings to find tenants? I wouldn't mind.

Edited June 6, 2017 by samagon

[Houston19514]

18 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

They are part of a fabric, just not the downtown fabric. They are really part of the entertainment fabric that just happens to intersect parts of downtown. Accordingly, those restaurants cater to patrons of their respective entertainment venues first, and then to local downtowners second, if at all.  For example's Irma's restaurant hours based on Astros home games. Artista hours based on performance nights, etc. I lived in downtown and there were very few street level restaurants that i could count on to be open most evenings and weekends. The rest i had to look at my Astros calendar, Hobby Center calendar, etc. Not saying there weren't any open, because there were/are some, but just not as many as you would like to believe.

 

I don't know when you lived in downtown Houston, but if it wasn't in the past six months, it's almost irrelevant. You clearly do not know downtown Houston.

 

And your attempts to draw imaginary lines around what is and is not part of the downtown fabric is ridiculous.  What sense does it make to claim that tourists, convention goers, visiting business people, Astros fans, Rockets fans, etc etc. are not part of the downtown fabric?  Of course they are part of the downtown fabric. That is what makes a vibrant, active downtown so compelling (and worth a little extra effort to create and nurture).

 

 

Edited June 6, 2017 by Houston19514

[102IAHexpress]

42 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

 What sense does it make to claim that tourists, convention goers, visiting business people, Astros fans, Rockets fans, etc etc. are not part of the downtown fabric?  Of course they are part of the downtown fabric. That is what makes a vibrant, active downtown so compelling (and worth a little extra effort to create and nurture).

 

 

 

Obviously they are not. You remove those entertainment venues and you also lose those visitors. Or better put, when those entertainment venues are not operating (game nights, performance nights) the immediate area is no longer filled with visitors. You may not like to hear that, but that's just a reality. Don't like it?  Then change it. Convince your fellow citizens to patronize Irma's year round. Should be easy right?

 

And It makes sense because to some citizens, downtown is an actual neighborhood where they live and/or work, pay taxes, etc. Thus, If you want to have a serious discussion as to how make the downtown neighborhood better then perhaps you should actually speak to people who have a stake in the neighborhood, and not just people drinking tequila shots and beer, throwing up then going home to Sugar Land.

 

If however the goal is to make downtown like a Times Square entertainment venue and to push out the local residents that live there then by all means lets add more bars for Astros games.

[Houston19514]

40 minutes ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

Obviously they are not. You remove those entertainment venues and you also lose those visitors. Or better put, when those entertainment venues are not operating (game nights, performance nights) the immediate area is no longer filled with visitors.

 

And, if you remove the apartments, we'll lose those residents. If we removed the office buildings, we'd lose those office workers.  So what?  That doesn't make any of those people or businesses any less a part of the downtown fabric.  And the fact we'd lose visitors if we removed entertainment venues doesn't make those visitors any less a part of the downtown fabric.  (BTW, You exaggerate the impact of the Astros schedule on Irma's hours; perhaps it has changed since you lived here. She is open every Thurs-Fri-Sat night until 10 pm.  M-W only for lunch, but stays open until 7 if there is an Astros game. Even then, so what?)

 

Quote

You may not like to hear that, but that's just a reality. Don't like it?  Then change it. Convince your fellow citizens to patronize Irma's year round. Should be easy right?

 

You clearly have not noticed, but we are changing it. As the new residential developments fill up (and as we add more in future years), ballpark area bars and restaurants will not be as dependent on Astros games, and more bars and restaurants will be able be developed, stay open nights and weekends and benefit from business from the residents, entertainment venues, and office workers, all part of the downtown fabric. (See, e.g., Osso-Kristalla: M-Th 7am – 10pm; Fr 7am – 11pm; Sat 10am – 11pm; Sun 10am – 9pm

Potente:  M–Th 5-10pm; Fr & Sat 5-11pm )

 

Quote

And It makes sense because to some citizens, downtown is an actual neighborhood where they live and/or work, pay taxes, etc. Thus, If you want to have a serious discussion as to how make the downtown neighborhood better then perhaps you should actually speak to people who have a stake in the neighborhood, and not just people drinking tequila shots and beer, throwing up then going home to Sugar Land.

 

If however the goal is to make downtown like a Times Square entertainment venue and to push out the local residents that live there then by all means lets add more bars for Astros games.

 

Nice strawmen. And four of them in only 2 sentences.  Good work.  Where did anyone suggest that we should speak only to people drinking tequila shots and beer, throwing up then going home to Sugar Land?  Where did anyone suggest we want to make downtown like a Times Square venue, push out local residents or add more "bars for Astros games"?  Anyone wanting to have a serous discussion about how to make the downtown neighborhood better must speak to everyone who is part of the downtown fabric.  That includes residents, potential residents, patrons of entertainment venues (even those who do tequila shots), office workers, visiting business people, convention goers, tourists, church-goers, etc., etc., etc.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Houston19514

[102IAHexpress]

7 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

You clearly have not noticed, but we are changing it.

 

You clearly have not noticed that Chipolte can't even sustain itself on a Saturday or Sunday. Get back to me when that's changed. It has everything you would need according to HAIF, ground level retail below a huge apartment building, on the light rail line, in the center of downtown Houston. Yet there are just not enough people to be profitable on the weekends.

 

 

[Nole23]

2 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

 

I don't know when you lived in downtown Houston, but if it wasn't in the past six months, it's almost irrelevant. You clearly do not know downtown Houston.

 

And your attempts to draw imaginary lines around what is and is not part of the downtown fabric is ridiculous.  What sense does it make to claim that tourists, convention goers, visiting business people, Astros fans, Rockets fans, etc etc. are not part of the downtown fabric?  Of course they are part of the downtown fabric. That is what makes a vibrant, active downtown so compelling (and worth a little extra effort to create and nurture).

 

 

 

I completely agree with this and just gave up on the discussion because I don't feel like going back and forth. Like someone mentioned earlier, if we focus on the trend of downtown and compare where it was a few years ago, where it is now, and where we are projected to be over the next few years then it is obvious we are heading in the right direction. I currently live downtown and there are no shortage of restaurants open and things to do after work hours and weekends. This was not the case a few short years ago.

[Houston19514]

25 minutes ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

You clearly have not noticed that Chipolte can't even sustain itself on a Saturday or Sunday. Get back to me when that's changed. It has everything you would need according to HAIF, ground level retail below a huge apartment building, on the light rail line, in the center of downtown Houston. Yet there are just not enough people to be profitable on the weekends.

 

 

 

ROFL.  Actually, I have noticed.  I'm not sure what difference it makes.  Can we not be a successful downtown until each and every restaurant is open for lunch and dinner 7 days a week?  Or is it just Chipotle we need open on Saturday and Sunday in order to be successful?  Or is it every retail business on the ground floor of The Rice?  In any case, neither I nor anyone else I'm aware of has claimed our work is done or that we have a perfect downtown (as if there is such a thing). We are just now beginning to populate the thousands of new residences; those residents will no doubt have a good effect on the restaurant and bar scene.  Keep on eye on that Chipotle! If the whole chain doesn't go out of business first, you might be surprised!  ;-)

 

I'm not sure what your point is, and judging by your accelerating descent into fallacious arguments, neither do you.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Houston19514

[urbanize713]

Mods, @Urbannizer or who ever else, can we have the discussion from the previous pages moved to more appropriate forums?  Perhaps a portion into a transportation forum and the other into downtown restaurant sub forum?

[KinkaidAlum]

Y'all, downtown is dead. Chipotle isn't open on Saturday night. Light rail killed it.

 

Seriously, stop feeding the troll overstuffed burritos. 

[102IAHexpress]

36 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

 

Keep on eye on that Chipotle! If the whole chain doesn't go out of business first, you might be surprised!  ;-)

 

 

ROFL. Typical fall back position, it's the fault of the business. Do you really want to pursue that failed argument? What is your argument for Cafe Express?, Jason's Deli? Lone Star Taco? Why do they not open on the weekends? According to you they must also be on the brink of failure.

 

The point is that many on this forum attribute without evidence the success of one thing to something totally unrelated especially when it comes to downtown.

 

New office tower in downtown; Great it's because of the light rail. huh?

New bar across from the GRB and Minute Maid; Great it's because downtown is growing like wildfire with new residents! Huh? what about all the restaurants that are literally closed more than they are open in downtown?

 

 

 

[102IAHexpress]

5 minutes ago, KinkaidAlum said:

Y'all, downtown is dead. Chipotle isn't open on Saturday night. Light rail killed it.

 

Seriously, stop feeding the troll overstuffed burritos. 

 

Actually downtown is alive. All the restaurants in the tunnels are really open in the evenings and weekends and they are making a ton of money after hours, it's just nobody knows about it. The light rail is also bringing in tons of passengers to Cafe Express and Chipolte on the weekends but we can't actually see them that's why they appear closed. And the city didn't have to offer tax breaks to developers to build new construction in downtown. Based on all this lets go ahead and fund a tax subsidized retail district in downtown as well, the reports of traditional retail dying because of online shopping is clearly fake news.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Avossos]

Any way to clean this thread up mods?

 

It has become an awful vent session.