Proposed Astrodome Hotel

[DJ V Lawrence]

as i mentioned above, most people bring a set amount of money to the event. every $ spent at the hotel is a $ less spent at the rodeo or game.

and yes, i totally understand the flip side. we can debate trickle down economics all day but again, it is what it is.

as for the other items, ill gladly elaborate when i can.

edited to add: sweet, post #420. do i win a haif bong?

I don't understand how the trickle-down-economic effect would happen with Reliant Park if the hotel were there.

1) Most people that go to the Rodeo or to a Texans game are fans from the Houston area, so why would they want to spend any extra money sleeping in a hotel the night before unless they already have that money to spend?

2) The Rodeo and NFL football are not year-around events. The Texans play as much as 15 games at Reliant a year (if you include preseason and if they made the playoffs). The Rodeo is around three weeks long straight, so the chances are that most people traveling to Houston would probably be staying in the hotel in their complex, but they'd still be spending on Rodeo events because that's why they came in the first place. If anything, the hotel would probably help make the Rodeo even bigger than before.

And when events happen on non-football/rodeo days like concerts, international soccer, motorcross, etc., chances also are that the performers and athletes from those events, including the Texans opponents, would probably stay in that hotel as well. Why would they have spent any money on their own event in the first place?

I understand the greed-economic effect going on there, as in "they're making money, and we're not making money off of them, therefore it's not a good economic plan", but if you already spent money on a ticket, parking, and saved up for that $6 beer for your daughter Jamie Lynn, where would the hotel take away from that other than a stuffed belly at the beginning of the game that you probably would have had anyway from the tailgate parties in the parking lot? Chances are that if you ever watch your home team make a bad play, you're gonna wanna buy something that'll make you slur your words and forget everything that happened five minutes before. I know that because I've watched countless Texans games, and I still can't remember anything between 2002-2006...

[RedScare]

as i mentioned above, most people bring a set amount of money to the event. every $ spent at the hotel is a $ less spent at the rodeo or game.

and yes, i totally understand the flip side. we can debate trickle down economics all day but again, it is what it is.

as for the other items, ill gladly elaborate when i can.

edited to add: sweet, post #420. do i win a haif bong?

Actually, most people do NOT bring a set amount of money. Credit cards are ubiquitous, and VISA is trying to guarantee that they can be used anywhere. However, I agree that there is only so much food and drink that one can force into their belly (Mr. Creosote notwithstanding), and the Texans and Rodeo want to control every corny dog and overpriced beer that you buy.

The congestion issue is bunk. The hotel would have 1,300 rooms. Many hotel guests arrive without vehicles. Those that do, rarely bring more than one. There would be a disincentive to jump in the car on a game day as 20,000 or more vehicles are arriving at the stadium. This issue is negligible. The opposition still revolves around trying to keep every dollar spent, to the detriment of taxpayers.

Note to DJ: I would have thought that someone as obsessed with sports as you would know that the maximum number of NFL home games is 12...2 preseason, 8 regular season, and 2 playoff. The Texans will never play 15 home games...and rarely even play 12.

[ricco67]

Believe it or not, a good portion of those that attend the actual rodeo are from out of town, the hotels are totally packed, so having this hotel would simply house those that would ordinarily stay out (way out!) in the boonies!

Also, as far as parking/congestion goes, a substantial portion of the local populous that go to the rodeo generally catch a cab, shuttle, or the Light rail.

I mean, have you tried catching a cab during rodeo?? it's almost next to impossible, especially during BBQ.

If you don't believe me, go to stadium, get on an upper floor and you can literally see hundreds of cabs coming in and picking up.

[houston-development]

let me be perfectly clear.

i am not defending their position, only giving a brief explination because i see both sides of the arguement.

[RedScare]

And I'm not picking on you, H-D. I have little doubt that these two groups can make the argument and tweak the numbers two show that the hotel could slightly impact their food/bev sales, regardless whether that is how it would play out in real life. My point...and many others...is simply that a Billionaire NFL owner and a supposed charity rodeo...both of whom owe a huge measure of their financial success to the folks who PAID FOR their comfortable digs...should be a little more considerate of the taxpayers they strong-armed for the $350 million.

The Texans would not exist without our ponying up the cash for the stadium. Their entire existence was predicated on Houston/Harris County building them a NEW stadium, as opposed to using the 65,000 seat stadium next door. Additionally, taxpayers approved spending an extra $50 Million for a retractable roof, JUST so the Rodeo could close it and continue to use its tagline, "The World's Largest Indoor Rodeo". Considering the amount of cash we taxpayers forked over to build their Taj Mahal, the argument that this hotel impacts our ability to gouge the taxpayers for even more money rings hollow.

In the spirit of the Christmas season, both groups sound like Ebenezer Scrooge. Bah humbug!

[crunchtastic]

(Mr. Creosote notwithstanding)

Bring me a bucket!

[roadrunner]

Personally, I think the hotel sounds kind of cheesy. And if done, it would most likely be unimpressive unless they really poured a ton of money into it....which sounds uncertain.

Here's what I would do with the dome. Put some money into it to restore it to make it look back in it's heyday. Hire a really good historical tourism team to dress up the dome and make it one big exhibit. Not only on the Astros, Oilers, etc., but include everything that happened in the dome. That building really does have a lot of history....up to Katrina a couple of years ago. It will be Houston's Colosseum, but on an obviously smaller scale. That way some money can be made, and they aren't trying to make it into something it isn't.

[TheNiche]

Put some money into it to restore it to make it look back in it's heyday. Hire a really good historical tourism team to dress up the dome and make it one big exhibit. Not only on the Astros, Oilers, etc., but include everything that happened in the dome. That building really does have a lot of history....up to Katrina a couple of years ago. It will be Houston's Colosseum, but on an obviously smaller scale. That way some money can be made, and they aren't trying to make it into something it isn't.

I really doubt money could be made from that.

[roadrunner]

I really doubt money could be made from that.

Yeah that's probably the reality of it. Maybe just keep it up half the year to attract people and run it as a non-profit. I dunno. I just think the hotel idea would be really tacky.

[CDeb]

Tacky or no, the Dome will see the wrecking ball if it does not generate revenue in the mid-term future.

[TheNiche]

Tacky or no, the Dome will see the wrecking ball if it does not generate revenue in the mid-term future.

Possibly, but that might also just be an in-credible threat designed to scare sentimentalists into coming forward with ideas. The Chronicle at one point provided cost figures for keeping it in mothballs each year or for demolishing it. And a quick NPV calculation revealed that it is less expensive to keep it than demolish it, even if it has zero benefit to anybody. That means that anyone who can operate the dome where revenues exceed operating costs net of rents should be allowed in as a tenant...assuming of course that the Texans and HLSR approve.

[Subdude]

I got an email from Texans president Jamey Rootes pleading with Texans fans to understand their point of view. I quoted it below. Luckily he also requested feedback, I've provided mine. If you'd like to provide yours, here is the email: fanfeedback@houstontexans.com

...We hope you can appreciate our desire to have the Dome redevelopment process conducted in a thoughtful manner that adds value for the community. We also hope you will understand our objections to a proposal that would negatively impact the experience you have come to expect when attending Houston Texans games and Rodeo events at Reliant Park.

...Our primary interest is to protect the experience of our fans during and after the Dome redevelopment effort...We want to ensure that the right steps are taken at Reliant Park to enhance the value and utilization of this world-class community asset for this and the next generation of Texans.

Oh, brother. That letter is a classic example of marketing-speak vetted by lawyers. I can accept their wishing to protect their profits, but couching it in terms of "protecting the game-day experience" is just silly and OTT. I don't see any explanation of how exactly the hotel proposal would hurt the fan experience. He just says it will.

[lockmat]

news, but not really...

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5477029.html

[The Great Hizzy!]

Saw a similar update this morning on ABC 13. In essence, an opportunity to allow the development group who's interested in the property more time to make a serious move on actually redeveloping the 8th Wonder.

[lockmat]

Saw a similar update this morning on ABC 13. In essence, an opportunity to allow the development group who's interested in the property more time to make a serious move on actually redeveloping the 8th Wonder.

Haven't they done that once before already?

[wxman]

http://www.khou.com/topstories/stories/kho...e.50dac089.html

Well, we could be one step closer to seeing the demise of the Astrodome.

[houstonmacbro]

I do agree with Judge E in not extending the deadlines for compliance over and over. Either these groups have the backers (and funds) to do the deal or not. If not, then they need to move to another developer.

Many times developers will tie up the properties with these extensions while they line up the best financing and other backers. This is unfair to the community and to other developers that might be able to get the deals done as well.

I think this is a wise decision.

[lockmat]

I heard one suggestion as to what they could turn the dome into. A giant paintball yard. I thought it was funny and kind of a cool idea.

[RedScare]

I do agree with Judge E in not extending the deadlines for compliance over and over. Either these groups have the backers (and funds) to do the deal or not. If not, then they need to move to another developer.

Many times developers will tie up the properties with these extensions while they line up the best financing and other backers. This is unfair to the community and to other developers that might be able to get the deals done as well.

I think this is a wise decision.

Except that you ignored the fact that it is the County that is dragging its feet, not the developers. The developers have prodided the plan to the County, but the County has not finished reviewing it. Emmett's stubbornness makes no sense when it is his people dragging it out.

[The Great Hizzy!]

Emmett sounded like he was an agent of both the Texans and the Rodeo. That might not be the case but that's how it sounded. It makes you think that behind the scenes, Emmett told this development group to either find a way to appease/cut in the Texans and the Rodeo on the $$$ or else.

I hope I'm wrong.

[pestofan]

If the hotel falls through, perhaps the best option would be to convert the dome into a giant parking garage, covered but open air. Would preserve its groundbreaking feature, the roof, and at least the sense of its original scale. Opening the sides for ventilation would remove most of the high operating costs, while the top level might be rented out for gatherings, parties, and maybe smaller art shows, flea markets, and concerts. If the roof is darkened (to reduce heat buildup) that would work as a shaded rooftop pavillion in the spring, summer, and fall. However with a dark roof the top level might be too cool for use during the rodeo and latter part of the Texans' seasons. Or perhaps add the ability to roll down tent sides to enclose that level when it is cold and use portable heaters? Don't the Texans and other teams do that with giant tents in their lots on game days? And you've already got the big ramps and elevators to move large groups of people and be ADA compliant.

Either way, the top level use would just be an added bonus, simply converting the dome into a giant parking garage would free up a lot of the surrounding parking lots for other types of development and the new taxes these would bring in.

Edited January 24, 2008 by pestofan

[lockmat]

If the hotel falls through, perhaps the best option would be to convert the dome into a giant parking garage, covered but open air. Would preserve its groundbreaking feature, the roof, and at least the sense of its original scale. Opening the sides for ventilation would remove most of the high operating costs, while the top level might be rented out for gatherings, parties, and maybe smaller art shows, flea markets, and concerts. If the roof is darkened (to reduce heat buildup) that would work as a shaded rooftop pavillion in the spring, summer, and fall. However with a dark roof the top level might be too cool for use during the rodeo and latter part of the Texans' seasons. Or perhaps add the ability to roll down tent sides to enclose that level when it is cold and use portable heaters? Don't the Texans and other teams do that with giant tents in their lots on game days?

Either way, the top level use would just be an added bonus, simply converting the dome into a giant parking garage would free up a lot of the surrounding parking lots for other types of development and the new taxes these would bring in.

Hey, I kind of like that idea. They could make part of the top like an observatory. Even though it's not too high, it's the most historical/remembered part of the facade.

[JJVilla]

Agree that would be a worthwhile idea, economic review outstanding. Unless that team, that should worry more about winning, puts another roadblock.

Edited January 24, 2008 by JJVilla

[roadrunner]

I like the idea but I think it would kill the Texans tailgate scene.

[GovernorAggie]

I like the idea but I think it would kill the Texans tailgate scene.

Maybe not quite...the Arizona Cardinals new stadium actually has indoor tailgating space IIRC. Maybe that's what the top level is for, part-time. I didn't like the idea of converting the Dome to a massive parking garage alone, but if a few levels of parking are built into it with other uses on top, then maybe that could be something to look at. The museum, event/exhibition space, and other things could maybe sit on top of say 7 levels of parking.

However, getting out of a parking garage that size after an event would be a not-so-nice endeavor IMO.

If the hotel falls through, I still prefer the museum idea. I would think the Dome has enough space on the inside to make it a one of a kind sports museum (which has been mentioned before) but complete it scale replicas (a la big league dreams in League City) of the old Houston stadiums like where the Buffalos played and even a modern scale replica of Minute Maid. For the indoor teams, an actual scale replica of the Rockets, Comets, Cougars, etc. courts and the Aeros ice could be put in. Each scaled playing surface could also be the exhibits of those teams (for example how many current Houstonians who may be Northern transplant hockey fans know that Gordie Howe, one of the greatest hockey players ever, played for and has his jersey retired with the Aeros?)

Another museum idea is to divide the Dome into levels and have sort of a Houston through time kinda thing, complete with the prehistoric days of what the area we know as Houston was like ages ago (it might actually have to be an underwater exhibit). There can then be a scale diorama of the battle of San Jacinto on another level, and then sort of a progression through time from 1836 to now, complete with scale models and old photographs such as of Main Street in the say, 1920s-1940s, what we now know as Uptown in 1960. I think that people would be amazed to actually get a visual representation of how much this city has changed in such a short time, and it could spur visits to other attractions here that most people may not think to look at, such as the free tour given by the Port, the San Jacinto Monument, everything done by famous Houstonians such as Jesse Jones, Howard Hughes (who most Americans may not know was a Houstonian), and so on. There could also be a section on famous Houstonians past and present (I mean how many people know that "Claire Huxtable" is a Houstonian?), and major contributions that Houston has made to the world, such as space travel, medical breakthroughs, energy, and anything else that can be attributed to the city. There could even be a "Hillcroft Ave" concept food court--since Hillcroft is one of the most diverse streets in town (given a Chron article some years ago that said that one can drive through 8 countries on Hillcroft)

Lastly, I personally think it would be kinda neat to see exhibits linking the names we hear so often today with the people or things they were named after such as Westheimer, Kirby, Travis, Fulton, Harrisburg, Scott, Cullen, Bissonet, Gessner, Hardy, etc. Just who were these people and what did they do to get streets named after them? Who was Harris County named after? Who is Sam Houston (aka the only person to ever be governor of two different states)?

Then again all these ideas could be dumb as a sack o' nickels

Edited January 24, 2008 by GovernorAggie

[KinkaidAlum]

Ah, great news. The rodeo wants to turn the Astrodome into a barn for livestock for 3 weeks out of the year. That makes so much more sense than a Gaylord type hotel and convention center.

Hey, we can finally literally ____ on our history!

[roadrunner]

Maybe not quite...the Arizona Cardinals new stadium actually has indoor tailgating space IIRC. Maybe that's what the top level is for, part-time. I didn't like the idea of converting the Dome to a massive parking garage alone, but if a few levels of parking are built into it with other uses on top, then maybe that could be something to look at. The museum, event/exhibition space, and other things could maybe sit on top of say 7 levels of parking.

However, getting out of a parking garage that size after an event would be a not-so-nice endeavor IMO.

If the hotel falls through, I still prefer the museum idea. I would think the Dome has enough space on the inside to make it a one of a kind sports museum (which has been mentioned before) but complete it scale replicas (a la big league dreams in League City) of the old Houston stadiums like where the Buffalos played and even a modern scale replica of Minute Maid. For the indoor teams, an actual scale replica of the Rockets, Comets, Cougars, etc. courts and the Aeros ice could be put in. Each scaled playing surface could also be the exhibits of those teams (for example how many current Houstonians who may be Northern transplant hockey fans know that Gordie Howe, one of the greatest hockey players ever, played for and has his jersey retired with the Aeros?)

Another museum idea is to divide the Dome into levels and have sort of a Houston through time kinda thing, complete with the prehistoric days of what the area we know as Houston was like ages ago (it might actually have to be an underwater exhibit). There can then be a scale diorama of the battle of San Jacinto on another level, and then sort of a progression through time from 1836 to now, complete with scale models and old photographs such as of Main Street in the say, 1920s-1940s, what we now know as Uptown in 1960. I think that people would be amazed to actually get a visual representation of how much this city has changed in such a short time, and it could spur visits to other attractions here that most people may not think to look at, such as the free tour given by the Port, the San Jacinto Monument, everything done by famous Houstonians such as Jesse Jones, Howard Hughes (who most Americans may not know was a Houstonian), and so on. There could also be a section on famous Houstonians past and present (I mean how many people know that "Claire Huxtable" is a Houstonian?), and major contributions that Houston has made to the world, such as space travel, medical breakthroughs, energy, and anything else that can be attributed to the city. There could even be a "Hillcroft Ave" concept food court--since Hillcroft is one of the most diverse streets in town (given a Chron article some years ago that said that one can drive through 8 countries on Hillcroft)

Lastly, I personally think it would be kinda neat to see exhibits linking the names we hear so often today with the people or things they were named after such as Westheimer, Kirby, Travis, Fulton, Harrisburg, Scott, Cullen, Bissonet, Gessner, Hardy, etc. Just who were these people and what did they do to get streets named after them? Who was Harris County named after? Who is Sam Houston (aka the only person to ever be governor of two different states)?

Then again all these ideas could be dumb as a sack o' nickels

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. I really wish Houston would use this as a way to embrace a true landmark in the city. Turning it into a hotel is cheap and fake. Letting it sit there is also a waste. Besides the San Jacinto Monument, which is far away from the core, there is nothing historic this city has to show for. I'm not going to try and compare this to the Alamo, but it sure is a lot closer than anything else we have.

[Subdude]

I've always thought a giant parking garage would be a reasonable fate for the Dome. It would allow preservation of a good bit more of the original exterior appearance than would the hotel concept. The problem is that probably the existing internal ramp structure wouldn't work for cars - there are all those 180 d. turns - so the structural changes to turn into a garage would be quite extensive and expensive.

Myself, I would like to see the Astrodome donated to the MFAH. The interior field could serve as a sculpture garden, the ramps would be perfect for display of art, and there would be plenty of natural light. Think of the Guggenheim, Texas-scale. And on top of all that, MFAH would have a home of true architectural merit.

[musicman]

The problem is that probably the existing internal ramp structure wouldn't work for cars - there are all those 180 d. turns - so the structural changes to turn into a garage would be quite extensive and expensive.

I believe i read that the exterior and interior are not integral so the interior could be changed without affecting the exterior.

[Houston19514]

Myself, I would like to see the Astrodome donated to the MFAH. The interior field could serve as a sculpture garden, the ramps would be perfect for display of art, and there would be plenty of natural light. Think of the Guggenheim, Texas-scale. And on top of all that, MFAH would have a home of true architectural merit.

Now that is an interesting idea. Would that likely be the world's largest art museum? Maybe a combo MFAH branch/Houston history museum ...