Proposed Astrodome Hotel

[Dieseldrvr]

I agree, the HSLR and the Texans are the reason Harris County taxpayers have a $350 million bond debt, paid for with my tax dollars.

I am deeply inDEBTED to you for that.

If you are so against the entire facility that the County owns, why are you not saying tear it all down? The 350 million wasn't provided by you, it was paid for mostly by Texans, HLSR, and hotel taxes, so you provided some tax breaks for building it? Wow, I'm sure you've more than made that up by revenue generated, not to mention the economic impact and extra taxes for having all the facilities they either built themselves or helped bring about and paid partially for. So there you go, remember that next time you say you want or use county facilities in the same breath you say you are complaining about the debt they cause, you're counteracting your own point.

[RedScare]

Actually, I was wrong. It cost $449 million. Of that, $284 million is being paid by hotel and rental car TAXES. Only $65 million is being paid by rent, a figure that includes parking TAXES on every car in the lot, and a ticket TAX on every ticket sold. In addition, the City rebates a portion of the sales TAX on everything sold in the stadium.

http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/stories...ry1.html?page=1

The price tag also represents a $139 million INCREASE in cost over what the voters were told when we voted for the stadium.

[Gary]

If you are so against the entire facility that the County owns, why are you not saying tear it all down? The 350 million wasn't provided by you, it was paid for mostly by Texans, HLSR, and hotel taxes, so you provided some tax breaks for building it? Wow, .

I'm not understanding some of this. Isn't it true that if the HLSR helped fit the bill for Reliant, they did so by revenue generated mainly by the citizens of Houston?

[TheNiche]

1. tear it down, Rodeo is completely against this and would fight for this to never happen, they could use the facilities.

2. Still not listening? The county isn't paying anything, it's cash flow positive as it sits from Rodeo alone, so you're making money.

3. You're saying it's better monetarily for the County to lease it 50 plus years to a private firm to make most of the money, versus let a group redevelop it at their own expense, Rodeo's, and DONATE it back to the county as they have done numerous times with the facilities there, and would pay to rent it back every year, and it would generate direct event money for the County and improve the total event package offered at Reliant domain? Again, no rocket scientist to figure out the Rodeo's plan would substantially provide more money to the county than a few tax dollars. Not to mention all the jobs to renovate and operate the facility, might not be as many as the hotel, but would the County sacrifice all of that for a few service jobs that will probably be around anyways by a hotel probably built offsite? So leases, total facility donation and redevelopment cost donation, and Event revenue don't add up to taxes? I'm sure you would be upset when the County has to reimburse the Rodeo for millions in lost revenue because the ARC violates the legal leases and contracts between the County and Rodeo, there goes all of your tax revenue.

Unfortunately for you, this Rodeo can't, I doubt there's enough tents in the state that could handle this show. I seriously doubt Houstons "thriving" status rests on this hotel being built at ONLY this site on County land. Again, I have no idea where people get this barn concept, I guess that Reliant Stadium is strictly a rodeo arena, not an NFL stadium, just because it has a rodeo in it?

You didn't even need to address possibilities #1 or #2. I mentioned them only to provide an exhaustive universe of potential outcomes, so that I might throw them out and get on to the point. Red is right, btw, that the county is still paying for it, not just in terms of maintenance but with debt service. And you haven't provided any substantiation to the claim that HSLR pays as much rent for the dome as would be necessary to meet the County's expenses. You only provided a figure that reflects the rent for the entirety of Reliant Park...that's a big-ass place with far more useful facilities than the dome, sitting on extremely expensive land. It is stretching it, in my mind, to say that $10 million is a sufficiently high number to even cover the expenses and opportunity costs of the entire Park, much less when you try to estimate the allocation of those rents that actually go towards the dome.

And you're saying that the County shouldn't lease (or sell) it to a private firm because the private firm might make money!? This after you projected in an earlier post that ARC would only end up going bankrupt!!! Is this the best you can do?

Btw, do you know anything at all about hotel development? I cannot think of a single convention hotel that has been built in decades that has not been subsidized by local government. It is not as though one will just pop up next door...they are ridiculously selective. The advantage here is that they'd already have the frame of a building in place that'd be below replacement costs, that they'd have the iconography of the Astrodome, and that they'd be within (not in the general area of) Reliant Park. If ARC could pull this off without the County paying them to take the dome off their hands or providing them tax breaks or special consideration (which is as it should be), it'll be a remarkable feat because no other place in the country could get such ridiculously good terms out of a new convention hotel development. And you're comparing THIS to a proposal for HLSR to make some modifications to the dome and then give it back to the County!? Where does the County make a windfall of income off THAT deal...it's not like what'll be put on their balance sheet is ever even going to be realized as cash, after all.

Unfortunately for you, this Rodeo can't, I doubt there's enough tents in the state that could handle this show.

Then have some made. It'll be less expensive than leasing Reliant Park or redeveloping the dome. Seriously, look into it. It's only the fiscally responsible thing for a charitable organization that cares about the children to do.

You do want to help the children...right? I have my doubts.

I seriously doubt Houstons "thriving" status rests on this hotel being built at ONLY this site on County land.

It doesn't. I never said it did. You keep on setting up straw men, I'll keep knocking them down.

Again, I have no idea where people get this barn concept, I guess that Reliant Stadium is strictly a rodeo arena, not an NFL stadium, just because it has a rodeo in it?

The short and sweet of the HLSR redevelopment plan is to add better livestock handling capabilities in the dome, then give it back to Harris County, right? Sounds like a barn. ...and barns can be multi-use structures too, I'll concede that. Hell, I've been known to sleep in bunkhouses attached to barns when visiting friends' places. And its always seemed to me like the idea of a kind of hotel room adjoining the arena was a pretty workable idea.

Why would they give up millions in revenue to it's charity on a project they feel hurts the site as a whole and doesn't best represent the citizens?

Were the HSLR bigwigs elected by the citizens of Harris County or even appointed by those of our County officials that were elected? Who are they to say what's best for me!? They sound like real assholes.

[The Great Hizzy!]

We're gettting way off base here. The original argument is a simple one. The Texans and the HLSR feel that the private entity that's seeking to redevelop the Astrodome into a mega hotel and resort would ultimate hurt their operations financially. Neither the Texans or HLSR has given a pretty compelling example of how this would be the case. In fact, the argument has been made that such a facility would probably help their operations monetarily.

The idea that the HLSR may/has propose(d) tearing down Reliant Arena and then converting the Astrodome into a facility that would serve the same purpose (for them) as does Reliant Arena currently, is hilarious. Period. I mean, How self serving can you get?

[Dieseldrvr]

We're gettting way off base here. The original argument is a simple one. The Texans and the HLSR feel that the private entity that's seeking to redevelop the Astrodome into a mega hotel and resort would ultimate hurt their operations financially. Neither the Texans or HLSR has given a pretty compelling example of how this would be the case. In fact, the argument has been made that such a facility would probably help their operations monetarily.

The idea that the HLSR may/has propose(d) tearing down Reliant Arena and then converting the Astrodome into a facility that would serve the same purpose (for them) as does Reliant Arena currently, is hilarious. Period. I mean, How self serving can you get?

I agree, way off target, I apologize if I have come off sounding rude at times, but there is too much misinformation. The argument IS simple, the fact is there would be many dollars spent at the Hotel, directly impacting the Rodeo and possibly the Texans, no dispute there, unless you say no money will be spent at the hotel? Nice fantasy. Hotel provides: 3000 maybe, Rodeo provides 100,000 per day, big difference in who provides the concession spenders, and a new hotel with what they are proposing would certainly get many of those dollars that the Rodeo brings in. And fact is that the ARC proposal directly violated the lease agreements and contracts, so it's their fault for not doing due diligence to make sure their plan was feasible, no one elses. And the idea that the redevelopment into a County owned event facility is only serving HLSR simply isn't true, how does the Arena currently only serve the rodeo? The Houston Comet's would beg to differ with you, as it's their new home, as it is to many concerts and other events, so how is that only serving one group?

[RedScare]

Umm, hotel provides maybe 3,000 per DAY, 365 days a year. Rodeo 100,000 for 18 days. Additionally, hotel patrons spend several hundred dollars per day, all taxed, whereas the Rodeo's own statement says rodeo goers spend $22.

You're right. BIG difference.

[AstrosFreak]

Has anyone mentioned the other economic benefits to the city of Houston, such as job creation? Charity is nice and all, but shouldn't the county be looking to increase the job market, especially in a time of impending recession? A hotel that provides enough jobs to serve 3000 people a day, 365 days a year should help a few employees better than the Rodeo. HLSR is all voluneeters, right? Plus, all of the hotel taxes, as mentioned before, would help pay for the rodeo's own facilities (Relient Stadium).

[musicman]

The argument IS simple, the fact is there would be many dollars spent at the Hotel, directly impacting the Rodeo and possibly the Texans

...and when it sits empty the rest of the year who does it impact?

[Dieseldrvr]

Umm, hotel provides maybe 3,000 per DAY, 365 days a year. Rodeo 100,000 for 18 days. Additionally, hotel patrons spend several hundred dollars per day, all taxed, whereas the Rodeo's own statement says rodeo goers spend $22.

You're right. BIG difference.

Hmm, 2,000,000 people spending that kind of money is a lot if they're spending it at the hotel over 20 days not to go to HLSR fund. 3000 over the time period in question, 20 days, is not nearly as much, considering the vast amount of the money they will spend would be at the hotel, not Rodeo, since we're debating whether Rodeo would lose money, core to the issue. The fact is it violates the lease agreements.

[Dieseldrvr]

...and when it sits empty the rest of the year who does it impact?

What are you talking about? No currently used facility sit's empty for the rest of the year, please explain?

[musicman]

What are you talking about? No currently used facility sit's empty for the rest of the year, please explain?

if it were making money, this discussion wouldn't be happening. for a three week event to dictate how the facility is used for the remainder of the year seems ludicrous, particularly when the facility is costing taxpayers money.

[The Great Hizzy!]

I understand Diesel's point about the Comets potentially sharing in a redeveloped Astrodome in that they would use the revamped facility for an expanded number of dates plus you could hold a handful of concerts there (like at the current Reliant Arena) but the sum total is an overall loss to taxpayers. What they'd have is a spruced up Reliant Arena and no Astrodome, when it gets right down to it.

Rather, you could spruce up Reliant Arena as it is to serve the rodeo and Comets' needs and still convert the Astrodome into something more grandiose, IMO (like the resort complex or a museum or what have you).

Edited February 1, 2008 by The Great Hizzy!

[Trae]

I do not know the revenue stream of the HLSR, but I am more than certain that the two major issues tha they have with the hotel is that it will have a signficant impact to concession revenues and parking revenues. Also, if this Hotel flops, which I am more than certain it will, I am more than certain that they will be looking for a bail out from the County and that is a non-starter. I am certain that the Texans probably feel the same way as well.

I vote for John McClain's recommendation of actually turning the Astrodome into what it is...A Sports Museum highlighting sporting events in Houston. There were many historical sporting events have taken place: Muhammed Ali fought 4 times in the Dome; 'Stros scoreboard, Luv Ya Blue, Astroturf, Warren Moon, Earl Campbell, Jack Johnson, All Star Games, etc...

It would be great and venue and people would travel worldwide to see the largest sports museum in the world.

You could still have that museum with the hotel.

[Dieseldrvr]

if it were making money, this discussion wouldn't be happening. for a three week event to dictate how the facility is used for the remainder of the year seems ludicrous, particularly when the facility is costing taxpayers money.

That's the beauty of the Dome redevelopment by the Rodeo, it would be developed into a facility that could be dictated by the county to be used for whatever purpose they want to make money, concerts, sporting events, conventions, shows, whatever. The hotel is the only proposal so far dictating the entire use of the facility, so you are against the hotel then?

You could still have that museum with the hotel.

As you could with an event centered redevelopment, and it would be owned by the County.

[gto250us]

I don't see the attraction of a Hotel at the Astro complex. It is too far from everything except the arena and stadium. I don't think those two venues can support a hotel of the size that is being discussed. I say tear the damn thing down and move on.

[Trae]

I agree, way off target, I apologize if I have come off sounding rude at times, but there is too much misinformation. The argument IS simple, the fact is there would be many dollars spent at the Hotel, directly impacting the Rodeo and possibly the Texans, no dispute there, unless you say no money will be spent at the hotel? Nice fantasy. Hotel provides: 3000 maybe, Rodeo provides 100,000 per day, big difference in who provides the concession spenders, and a new hotel with what they are proposing would certainly get many of those dollars that the Rodeo brings in. And fact is that the ARC proposal directly violated the lease agreements and contracts, so it's their fault for not doing due diligence to make sure their plan was feasible, no one elses. And the idea that the redevelopment into a County owned event facility is only serving HLSR simply isn't true, how does the Arena currently only serve the rodeo? The Houston Comet's would beg to differ with you, as it's their new home, as it is to many concerts and other events, so how is that only serving one group?

FAIL

How long (days) is the Rodeo in operation at Reliant Park a year compared to a hotel?

[Dieseldrvr]

FAIL

How long (days) is the Rodeo in operation at Reliant Park a year compared to a hotel?

2 months a year since 1966 I think, by far the parks largest tenant of it's time. What does that have to do with adding convention space to the site for the county's use, at no cost to them? Instead of a hotel which would lease away county land for 50+ years?

[Trae]

A hotel that would bring in patrons year-round to use the facilities on Reliant Park (conventions, etc.).

[AstrosFreak]

2 months a year since 1966 I think, by far the parks largest tenant of it's time. What does that have to do with adding convention space to the site for the county's use, at no cost to them? Instead of a hotel which would lease away county land for 50+ years?

Even if you're right and we should upgrade the convention space already available in the Relient complex, it wouldn't come at zero cost. The upgrade would be pretty expensive to bring the AstroArena\Hall\Dome to the level of a modern convention or multi-use center. And who would pay for this transition? Definitely not the rodeo. It would be more tax dollars from the county. Now that would be fiscally irresponsible.

Also, the Astros were the largest tenant of the Relient complex since 1965. Don't think that the whole facility was built for the rodeo - it wasn't - or that the rodeo was the biggest user or supporter of the facilities.

Edited February 1, 2008 by AstrosFreak

[Houston19514]

I agree, the HSLR and the Texans are the reason Harris County taxpayers have a $350 million bond debt, paid for with my tax dollars.

I am deeply inDEBTED to you for that.

Surely, you know they are YOUR tax dollars only to the extent you rent cars or stay in hotels in Harris County. And beyond that, the debt is paid not just with those tax dollars but also with the rent paid by the Texans and the Rodeo.

Even if you're right and we should upgrade the convention space already available in the Relient complex, it wouldn't come at zero cost. The upgrade would be pretty expensive to bring the AstroArena\Hall\Dome to the level of a modern convention or multi-use center. And who would pay for this transition? Definitely not the rodeo. It would be more tax dollars from the county. Now that would be fiscally irresponsible.

He has repeatedly said that the rodeo's plan is to re-do the Dome at the rodeo's expense (just like the rodeo built Reliant Hall and Reliant Arena at the rodeo's expense).

[RedScare]

Surely, you know they are YOUR tax dollars only to the extent you rent cars or stay in hotels in Harris County. And beyond that, the debt is paid not just with those tax dollars but also with the rent paid by the Texans and the Rodeo.

Are my tax dollars spent on rental cars and hotel rooms worth less than my other dollars? Do my parking taxes and ticket taxes count less as well? Admittedly, I don't pay parking and ticket taxes, since I am boycotting Rodeo and Texans events until I see the outcome of their temper tantrum, though.

He has repeatedly said that the rodeo's plan is to re-do the Dome at the rodeo's expense (just like the rodeo built Reliant Hall and Reliant Arena at the rodeo's expense).

He says it, but the Rodeo has never offered to do so officially, meaning their plans are worthless.

[musicman]

The hotel is the only proposal so far dictating the entire use of the facility, so you are against the hotel then?

no. not sure how you came ot that conclusion. having a facility that brings in money is the goal. currently i've only heard whining from rodeo and texan officials.

Edited February 2, 2008 by musicman

[KinkaidAlum]

As will I....

Me too.

I admit, I haven't been to the rodeo in 3 years but I am way less likely to support an organization that I think is doing the City/County more harm than good in blocking this process. You can spout off until you are blue in the face with your support for the Texans and the Rodeo, but it is MY OPINION that their concerns are 100% selfish.

On the flip side, I live in Boston and have told friends here about how fun a rodeo weekend can be. I'd be way more likely to book rooms in the hotel on-site and spend my money at the rodeo, shows, midway, and concessions if I knew I wouldn't have to worry about transportation and DRINKING AND DRIVING all weekend.

Edited to add-

By the way, I do rent cars and stay in hotels in Houston upwards of 10 times a year. So, I am PAYING for the Astrodome more than most on this board so I should have more say than McNair!

Edited February 2, 2008 by KinkaidAlum

[ricco67]

I don't see the attraction of a Hotel at the Astro complex. It is too far from everything except the arena and stadium. I don't think those two venues can support a hotel of the size that is being discussed. I say tear the damn thing down and move on.

Actually, in a few years, the Med Center will be within a (relatively) easy walking distance to the med center as it expands. If anything, more Med center visitors/patients would wind up setting up shop there as well as providing meeting space which the med center is sorely lacking.

Good lord people, I'm gone for a few hours and you really went nuts. Excellent arguments, Red. I owe you (another) drink.

You guys are doing fine, I guess I'll sit my knuckle dragging self in a corner to read.

[AstrosFreak]

I just realized that Reliant Stadium will be hosting the 2011 NCAA Men's Final Four. Imagine how beneficial an on-site hotel would be!

[musicman]

Actually, in a few years, the Med Center will be within a (relatively) easy walking distance to the med center

it already is!

[ProHouston]

I don't see the attraction of a Hotel at the Astro complex. It is too far from everything except the arena and stadium. I don't think those two venues can support a hotel of the size that is being discussed. I say tear the damn thing down and move on.

The hotel proposal is build as a destination convention hotel. A hotel people go to just to be on the hotel site for restaurants, entertainment, meetings, spa services, pools, etc. It's not going to be a Holiday Inn Express. Additionally, the convention center it would benefit is mere feet away.

Another thought most are missing, would the Texans and Rodeo be MORE likely to sell tickets to Rodeo events, soccer matches, circuses, Final Fours, Texas Bowls, etc. with an attached hotel. Maybe the Texans lose some cash on game days, but it seems like a hotel would help them sell tickets to many other events that aren't pre-sold to season ticket holders.

[TheNiche]

2 months a year since 1966 I think, by far the parks largest tenant of it's time. What does that have to do with adding convention space to the site for the county's use, at no cost to them? Instead of a hotel which would lease away county land for 50+ years?

So what you're saying then, is that a two-month-per-year tenant that has been around for 42 years (and regardless of how this plays out will continue to be a two-month-per-year tenant into perpetuity, ought to be given preferential treatment over a year-round tenant going forward for the next 50 years?

That's 84 months for HSLR in the past, versus 600 months for ARC and 100 months for HSLR going forward!

[CDeb]

Surely, you know they are YOUR tax dollars only to the extent you rent cars or stay in hotels in Harris County.

If you ignore the opportunity cost of other projects that those tax dollars could fund to benefit the citizens of Harris County.