Proposed Astrodome Hotel

[Dieseldrvr]

Would you explain on how it would have a "significant" impact on revenue?

A few of us (including me) think it would be to their benefit for the hotel to be located there.

They state that if there were attractions there and a hotel there, then there would be that much less money that people can spend at the Rodeo.

However, if they STAY at the hotel, they would actually be able to spend more time (and money ) at the Rodeo because they wouldn't have such an expense to park (which I'm sure other patrons would happily will) and won't have to rent a car. If they're going to use that arguement, they why would they want Light rail, Park and Ride, and Taxi stands in use?

Thank you Ricco, I appreciate the welcome, it is addictive. I have usually just trolled the board for info as the wealth of knowledge on here is great. But as I have read the 8 pages, as well as alot of misinformation out there in the "media" and such. I hate for one group to get bashed for things that simply aren't true. I would have to say that the group who is proposing the hotel has some pretty weak data, considering they admitted in their research they didn't account for any people from Rodeo or Texans games coming to their facilities. So I would say most of their points are suspect. I also don't think the county should lease away their valuable land for 50 years to anyone. The Rodeo is made up of people in this county that have proven they can get things done and do them right. As for the explanation to how they would take money directly out of the charity revenue. How can you say that when the hotel would obviously serve many more people than just simply sleep there? The people staying there won't spend hardly any money at the show other than what they have to see things, which we know to tickets to be only a portion, concessions and shopping are huge generators of charity revenue. The bars and restaurants of the hotel would draw many people, can't deny that, and they would spend money there, and how can you deny that every single dollar spent on food or drink there isn't taken away from the Rodeo?

[AstrosFreak]

The people staying there won't spend hardly any money at the show other than what they have to see things, which we know to tickets to be only a portion, concessions and shopping are huge generators of charity revenue. The bars and restaurants of the hotel would draw many people, can't deny that, and they would spend money there, and how can you deny that every single dollar spent on food or drink there isn't taken away from the Rodeo?

Why would hotel guests not spend any money on concessions or shopping? I don't understand why people would behave differently if they're staying in a hotel. Personally, I feel that if you go to the rodeo, you're going to eat at the rodeo

[TheNiche]

Also, if this Hotel flops, which I am more than certain it will, I am more than certain that they will be looking for a bail out from the County and that is a non-starter. I am certain that the Texans probably feel the same way as well.

If the hotel flops, it'll be because they can't cover their debt service. Astrodome Redevelopment Corp. would merely declare bankruptcy, but so long as revenues exceeded operating costs--which would be extremely difficult to believe that they wouldn't--the hotel itself will remain in operation, just with a different owner.

[ricco67]

Thank you Ricco, I appreciate the welcome, it is addictive. I have usually just trolled the board for info as the wealth of knowledge on here is great. But as I have read the 8 pages, as well as alot of misinformation out there in the "media" and such. I hate for one group to get bashed for things that simply aren't true. I would have to say that the group who is proposing the hotel has some pretty weak data, considering they admitted in their research they didn't account for any people from Rodeo or Texans games coming to their facilities. So I would say most of their points are suspect. I also don't think the county should lease away their valuable land for 50 years to anyone. The Rodeo is made up of people in this county that have proven they can get things done and do them right. As for the explanation to how they would take money directly out of the charity revenue. How can you say that when the hotel would obviously serve many more people than just simply sleep there? The people staying there won't spend hardly any money at the show other than what they have to see things, which we know to tickets to be only a portion, concessions and shopping are huge generators of charity revenue. The bars and restaurants of the hotel would draw many people, can't deny that, and they would spend money there, and how can you deny that every single dollar spent on food or drink there isn't taken away from the Rodeo?

Okay, then correct what the "media" has said.

But tell me this:

Considering how many out of town people come to the Rodeo every year (and I take care of alot of them, BTW), what difference does it make for them to spend $150 on Hotels, $10 in fuel and/or taxi/Rail, $20-30 on food (per person OUTSIDE the rodeo), and those staying at a hotel located ON the premises? If anything, the customers that chose to stay at the Dome hotel would actually be able to spend MORE money at the rodeo.

The numbers are VERY general, but average. The food is people eating at Denny's BEFORE/AFTER the rodeo.

Refute that.

[Dieseldrvr]

Considering how many out of town people come to the Rodeo every year (and I take care of alot of them, BTW), what difference does it make for them to spend $150 on Hotels, $10 in fuel and/or taxi/Rail, $20-30 on food (per person OUTSIDE the rodeo), and those staying at a hotel located ON the premises? If anything, the customers that chose to stay at the Dome hotel would actually be able to spend MORE money at the rodeo.

The numbers are VERY general, but average. The food is people eating at Denny's BEFORE/AFTER the rodeo.

Refute that.

Ok, very easy, I thought this was already covered, but no one is saying that the very small percentage of guests that could actually stay there if it was totally booked wouldn't spend some money at rodeo, money they were coming in to town to spend anyways. It's the thousands of other people who AREN'T staying at the hotel who WOULD spend money at the hotel instead of at the concessions at Rodeo. And the thought of close to 2 million people over 20 days is too lucrative of a market to ignore, even though they try to when submitting their numbers. Being the new hotel, people will be clamoring all over to go in there and spend money, it would be devastating to the Rodeo's concessions. Now if the Dome was turned into a great new facility that anyone could use, people would be clamoring over each other to go in and spend money, or view events, and would want to bring their events there, concerts, conventions, and such, things the Hotel couldn't offer because it would be too busy housing and employing people who only clog up the traffic system there. And people who think that most hotel traffic arrives by foot, magic carpet or taxi are not simply living in reality. Go to hotels in Houston, especially for rodeo, they are almost always full parking lots, and small numbers of public transportation, because a large number of them are ranchers who either have kids showing animals, or are buying livestock, that is a large percentage of out of town guests at the Show. The Show, contrary to popular belief, is about far more than just tickets to concerts, the Livestock Show is the largest of it's kind with 24 hour operations for most of the entire show. How could a multi use facility not better serve the county taxpayers as a revenue generation AND increase the total value of every space out there. There could be some very nice hotel's built all around there, there's plenty of land where Astrodome was, still haven't heard much about that, or some of the other space's near the Dome, south of 610 there are lots, and there's plenty room for renovation all along South Main, and OST, and Kirby. Not to mention the old Raddison and Holiday Inn(not sure of current names) could be renovated/knocked down and rebuilt. I'm not in commercial real estate so I don't know that side of acquiring or what the market is like over there, but it would certainly be better than earmarking County convention/sports property for a private hotel that has a 50+ year lease on it.

[RedScare]

The Texans and Rodeo's assertion that a hotel will drain revenue from their operations is as weak as the data that dieseldvr claims the hotel group has. Since the Texans revenue comes from people actually entering the stadium and watching the game, the only way for the hotel to siphon revenue from them would be for fans to actually LEAVE the game. This is a function of the team on the field, not a nice hotel next door. The Texans stop serving alcohol after the 3rd quarter. At that point, they have no more interest in what the fans do. Since virtually all of the games begin at noon on Sunday, there is only a one hour time frame in which to sell alcohol to fans in either the hotel or the stadium. Additionally, drinks in a tourist hotel will not be significantly cheaper than the Texans' overpriced cocktails. Little revenue will be lost before the game, either.

Likewise, once rodeo patrons tire of the rodeo, they leave. The hotel merely affords the opportunity to sit and have a drink or meal before getting in one's car, as opposed to driving somewhere away from the rodeo grounds. In either case, the rodeo is not getting any additional revenue once the patron has had enough of rednecks and cowpies. Again, the claim that it will drain rodeo revenue is as devoid of factual support as the hotel claim that it won't.

While there is little evidence to support your assertion that the hotel will cost the Texans and Rodeo revenue, there are TWO examples to support my assertion that it won't, and BOTH are here in Houston. The Astros play in a stadium in downtown with thousands of hotel rooms and dozens of restaurants and bars within walking distance of the stadium. Not only does it not impact revenue (the Astros drew 3,000,000 fans last season with a losing record), it ENHANCES the gameday experience. Fans go to Astros games knowing that there are entertainment options before, during and after the game.

Likewise, the Houston Rockets play next door to a 1,300 room hotel. A 360,000 sf retail center is being built a football field away. Again, this will entice more fans to Rockets games, as they know that after the game there will be things to do. The interesting fact about both of these arenas is that they were built with the precise intent of spurring development of the east side of downtown. The sports authority, voters and team owners WANTED exactly what the Texans and Rodeo are fighting against.

It is well known in restaurant circles that while one restaurant on a block may survive, several restaurants thrive. The concept of a "restaurant row" realizes that by giving consumers options, business grows. A hungry patron may not know what he wants to eat, but he knows that he has several choices. Therefore, he drives to the cluster of restaurants. By improving the Reliant complex, the same consumers are tempted to stay in the area longer, leaving more of their money. The Rodeo has the additional benefit of up to 3,000 hotel guests making several short trips to the rodeo grounds to spend money, whereas a hotel guest farther away might only make one trip and be done with it.

The final mistake being made by the Texans and Rodeo is community goodwill. The Rodeo can brag about its charity status all it wants, but when it uses its charity staus to destroy community icons, especially the one that made the Rodeo what it is, it hurts its goodwill in the community. I have already sworn off the Rodeo this year for its opposition to redevelopment of the Dome. How many more think like I do? How much revenue will the Rodeo lose from people like me, as opposed to having a hotel nearby? Perhaps the bigwigs at the Rodeo should think about THAT possibility as well.

Edited February 1, 2008 by RedScare

[Dieseldrvr]

The Texans and Rodeo's assertion that a hotel will drain revenue from their operations is as weak as the data that dieseldvr claims the hotel group has. Since the Texans revenue comes from people actually entering the stadium and watching the game, the only way for the hotel to siphon revenue from them would be for fans to actually LEAVE the game. This is a function of the team on the field, not a nice hotel next door. The Texans stop serving alcohol after the 3rd quarter. At that point, they have no more interest in what the fans do. Since virtually all of the games begin at noon on Sunday, there is only a one hour time frame in which to sell alcohol to fans in either the hotel or the stadium. Additionally, drinks in a tourist hotel will not be significantly cheaper than the Texans' overpriced cocktails. Little revenue will be lost before the game, either.

Likewise, once rodeo patrons tire of the rodeo, they leave. The hotel merely affords the opportunity to sit and have a drink or meal before getting in one's car, as opposed to driving somewhere away from the rodeo grounds. In either case, the rodeo is not getting any additional revenue once the patron has had enough of rednecks and cowpies. Again, the claim that it will drain rodeo revenue is as devoid of factual support as the hotel claim that it won't.

While there is little evidence to support your assertion that the hotel will cost the Texans and Rodeo revenue, there are TWO examples to support my assertion that it won't, and BOTH are here in Houston. The Astros play in a stadium in downtown with thousands of hotel rooms and dozens of restaurants and bars within walking distance of the stadium. Not only does it not impact revenue (the Astros drew 3,000,000 fans last season with a losing record), it ENHANCES the gameday experience. Fans go to Astros games knowing that there are entertainment options before, during and after the game.

Likewise, the Houston Rockets play next door to a 1,300 room hotel. A 360,000 sf retail center is being built a football field away. Again, this will entice more fans to Rockets games, as they know that after the game there will be things to do. The interesting fact about both of these arenas is that they were built with the precise intent of spurring development of the east side of downtown. The sports authority, voters and team owners WANTED exactly what the Texans and Rodeo are fighting against.

It is well known in restaurant circles that while one restaurant on a block may survive, several restaurants thrive. The concept of a "restaurant row" realizes that by giving consumers options, business grows. A hungry patron may not know what he wants to eat, but he knows that he has several choices. Therefore, he drives to the cluster of restaurants. By improving the Reliant complex, the same consumers are tempted to stay in the area longer, leaving more of their money. The Rodeo has the additional benefit of up to 3,000 hotel guests making several short trips to the rodeo grounds to spend money, whereas a hotel guest farther away might only make one trip and be done with it.

The final mistake being made by the Texans and Rodeo is community goodwill. The Rodeo can brag about its charity status all it wants, but when it uses its charity staus to destroy community icons, especially the one that made the Rodeo what it is, it hurts its goodwill in the community. I have already sworn off the Rodeo this year for its opposition to redevelopment of the Dome. How many more think like I do? How much revenue will the Rodeo lose from people like me, as opposed to having a hotel nearby? Perhaps the bigwigs at the Rodeo should think about THAT possibility as well.

I think the Rodeo, Texans, and the like would have a FAR better data analysis as to the patrons of their events and their spending habits, they have tracked them for a long time as do most events, so they can better capitalize on their market. Your comparisons are totally irrelevant to the situation. I am not defending the Texans stance here, I don't know all about why they oppose it, I am more concerned with the Rodeo's point, which so far, no one has provided any evidence to the contrary. Neither of your examples are even applicable because neither the Stros or the Rockets DEPEND on the shopping and concessions for revenue, as Rodeo does. If the shopping and restaurants that surrounded them were owned by the rockets/Stros, and someone was granted permission to take a huge portion of space, smack in the middle, that they previously used, and built a hotel and bars and restaurants and possibly shopping, they would do everything in their power to stop it, it would most certainly hurt them. The difference here is Rodeo provides all the entertainment, before, during and after. The people who spend the majority of the money there are not the ones who get tired of the show and leave, they stay and go to the Hideout until midnight, they stay and shop after the show, they are there early on weekends and stay the entire day with their families, so your assertions of rednecks and cowpies shows you definitely have no idea of the people that go to and are the target spender's of the rodeo. The simple fact of both ideas, is this:

1. the redevelopment idea and some people on here, that the probably overstated 3000 people that would stay there, in absolute best case scenario, totally filled up hotel with more than double occupancy. the claim that those people, who would go to rodeo anyways and spend some money, would now spend MORE money at the Show is ludacris, they would obviously spend some money at the hotel, food, drink, supplies, whatever, and would most certainly cause traffic headaches for the entire complex that have not been addressed. and they assume none of the far larger group of rodeo people would come in and spend a dime.

2. the Rodeo has 100,000 people a day through the turnstiles, they will have most certainly a large number of them want to go see the big new hotel and spend money there, this is the only obvious conclusion, thus stripping a very large number of dollars from the Show's charitable accounts.

This means that in BOTH scenarios, Rodeo is losing money to the hotel they would have otherwise received, and in the only realistic scenario is the one where money is funneled to the hotel rather than the Rodeo's mission. How can you refute any of this by actually insinuating that no money would be lost, it's a significant amount. And before people keep talking about the Rodeo and how much they owe the Dome or other things there, need to remember that the Rodeo is the one keeping and has kept the Dome standing since the stadium was built, THEY are the ones footing most all the bills, THEY are the ones who paid millions to make up the difference on the Reliant Stadium cost overruns, the retractable roof, THEY are the ones who built and DONATED FREE OF CHARGE the AstroHall, AstroArena, and the huge warehouse on site that also houses the 365 day a year grounds operations and machine shops for the site. THEY are the only group who has been a tenant of the site since the Dome was built, THEY are then ones who have done more for that entire 300+ acres of county land than anyone else, so how can you simply discount their side as simply a few rednecks kicking around some cowpatties, that is just ignorant.

[RedScare]

Your last 7 posts suggest that you are closely connected to the Rodeo. Your stance sounds suspiciously like theirs. I, on the other hand, am one of the potential patrons that the Rodeo depends on to fund its charities and scholarships. And, I will be blunt. If the Rodeo and Texans act to inhibit the redevelopment of the Dome, I will take my dollars elsewhere. Others may do the same. The question the Rodeo and Texans must answer is this: How many of us are there?

I hope they consider this issue carefully. I want the Rodeo to succeed. It does good work, and it helps educate our youth. However, I do not suffer arrogant charities gladly. If the Rodeo insists on throwing its weight around recklessly, I and others will take our entertainment dollars elsewhere. I know at least some of the rodeo people probably read this forum, so I hope they consider the fact that a large percentage of their income is derived from casual rodeo and country music fans and more importantly, Houstonians with a strong attachment to the AstroDome. Handling this PR issue poorly can drastically affect their bottom line. Just ask the Red Cross.

[Dieseldrvr]

Your last 7 posts suggest that you are closely connected to the Rodeo. Your stance sounds suspiciously like theirs. I, on the other hand, am one of the potential patrons that the Rodeo depends on to fund its charities and scholarships. And, I will be blunt. If the Rodeo and Texans act to inhibit the redevelopment of the Dome, I will take my dollars elsewhere. Others may do the same. The question the Rodeo and Texans must answer is this: How many of us are there?

I hope they consider this issue carefully. I want the Rodeo to succeed. It does good work, and it helps educate our youth. However, I do not suffer arrogant charities gladly. If the Rodeo insists on throwing its weight around recklessly, I and others will take our entertainment dollars elsewhere. I know at least some of the rodeo people probably read this forum, so I hope they consider the fact that a large percentage of their income is derived from casual rodeo and country music fans and more importantly, Houstonians with a strong attachment to the AstroDome. Handling this PR issue poorly can drastically affect their bottom line. Just ask the Red Cross.

You would be correct in that I am one of the 35,000 members of the show and one of the 19,000 committepersons that come from every zip code in the county. I have been on a committee for 7 years and grew up going to the shows, I am also very passionate about them, make no mistake, which is why I get so bent out of shape when people go off spouting things that aren't true about the show. I also am a rational thinking human, which leads me to understand the truth about the Rodeo's stance on the issues, and the fact that you haven't been able to provide any information to the contrary. And while I am very sorry your experience with the Show isn't one that will keep you returning, rest assured they are doing the best they can for their patrons, while keeping their ultimate goal in mind, which is raising as much money as they can for the youth programs, teacher and school programs, and the scholarships they provide alongside the largest and most influential Livestock show in the agribusiness industry. But they will certainly respond if there is a significant number of people who like you feel that a hotel is more important than keeping the Dome useful to more than 1300 rooms of beds, and although I don't know for sure, I suspect the vast majority of people would rather attend events and such in the Dome than care if some people in town for a conference have a place to stay. I don't foresee a significant number of people not going to the show just because they want to have a hotel ONSITE instead of nearby, or instead of a useful facility to the greater citizens of the county. And I'm sure the millions of past patrons, scholarship recipients, teachers, FFA and 4H involved families, along with the tens of thousands of current and past committeepeople/bigwigs or whatever you would like to say, they're all VOLUNTEERS, would support that the greater good of providing those services through the charitable mission of the Show rather than lease county land away to an entity that would provide the county nothing. If the Rodeo proposes as I think they would and have indicated in their statements to the media, it would provide the county and it's residents, as well as the site's tenants, the only plan that keeps the Astrodome's integrity that supporters of keeping it want, as well as it's original and best purpose, to hold events.

[Gary]

If the Rodeo and Texans act to inhibit the redevelopment of the Dome, I will take my dollars elsewhere.

As will I....

[ProHouston]

You would be correct in that I am one of the 35,000 members of the show and one of the 19,000 committepersons that come from every zip code in the county. I have been on a committee for 7 years and grew up going to the shows, I am also very passionate about them, make no mistake, which is why I get so bent out of shape when people go off spouting things that aren't true about the show. I also am a rational thinking human, which leads me to understand the truth about the Rodeo's stance on the issues, and the fact that you haven't been able to provide any information to the contrary. And while I am very sorry your experience with the Show isn't one that will keep you returning, rest assured they are doing the best they can for their patrons, while keeping their ultimate goal in mind, which is raising as much money as they can for the youth programs, teacher and school programs, and the scholarships they provide alongside the largest and most influential Livestock show in the agribusiness industry. But they will certainly respond if there is a significant number of people who like you feel that a hotel is more important than keeping the Dome useful to more than 1300 rooms of beds, and although I don't know for sure, I suspect the vast majority of people would rather attend events and such in the Dome than care if some people in town for a conference have a place to stay. I don't foresee a significant number of people not going to the show just because they want to have a hotel ONSITE instead of nearby, or instead of a useful facility to the greater citizens of the county. And I'm sure the millions of past patrons, scholarship recipients, teachers, FFA and 4H involved families, along with the tens of thousands of current and past committeepeople/bigwigs or whatever you would like to say, they're all VOLUNTEERS, would support that the greater good of providing those services through the charitable mission of the Show rather than lease county land away to an entity that would provide the county nothing. If the Rodeo proposes as I think they would and have indicated in their statements to the media, it would provide the county and it's residents, as well as the site's tenants, the only plan that keeps the Astrodome's integrity that supporters of keeping it want, as well as it's original and best purpose, to hold events.

Most Houstonians I've discussed this current event with as upset at the Texans and the Rodeo. They want the dome saved and like the idea of the hotel. They (myself included) feel the Texans and Rodeo are forgetting what the citizens of Houston have given them over the last 50 years. This deal will make money for our citizens, a barn won't. It's easy to see that the Texans and Rodeo aren't acting in the citizens best interest.

[CDeb]

I am more concerned with the Rodeo's point, which so far, no one has provided any evidence to the contrary.

Nevermind that you haven't exactly provided us with much beyond opinion and assertion.

[Mister X]

If the dome is torn down or turned into a barn, you can bet I will never step foot in Reliant Stadium again. I won't root against the Texans while watching them on TV but I won't be spending a cent on anything that has to do with them or the rodeo ever again. It's a promise.

Hell, as a theme park enthusiast I've already initiated a lifetime boycott of Six Flags parks for the destruction of AstroWorld. Lot's of Houstonians have. Flawed or not, that place WAS a significant part of our community. I'd rather spend my money at SeaWorld, Disney, or Cedar Fair parks than to give money to the company that turned that patch of land across from the dome (which was once thick with green trees and full of happy people) into a dismal, ugly, barren field of weeds. Take a look at Six Flags stock these days. It's in the toilet. Coincidence? Sure, but the last thing Six Flags parks needed was a reason to give people NOT to come to their parks.

Think about what your doing to this city if you have a hand in the destruction of our most famous structure. Some people won't forget it. They have rodeos in Fort Worth, right?

[TheNiche]

I also am a rational thinking human, which leads me to understand the truth about the Rodeo's stance on the issues, and the fact that you haven't been able to provide any information to the contrary. And while I am very sorry your experience with the Show isn't one that will keep you returning, rest assured they are doing the best they can for their patrons, while keeping their ultimate goal in mind, which is raising as much money as they can for the youth programs, teacher and school programs, and the scholarships they provide alongside the largest and most influential Livestock show in the agribusiness industry.

And I'm sure the millions of past patrons, scholarship recipients, teachers, FFA and 4H involved families, along with the tens of thousands of current and past committeepeople/bigwigs or whatever you would like to say, they're all VOLUNTEERS, would support that the greater good of providing those services through the charitable mission of the Show rather than lease county land away to an entity that would provide the county nothing. If the Rodeo proposes as I think they would and have indicated in their statements to the media, it would provide the county and it's residents, as well as the site's tenants, the only plan that keeps the Astrodome's integrity that supporters of keeping it want, as well as it's original and best purpose, to hold events.

Unlike Red, I will concede that a convention hotel on the site may result in some lost concessions to the HLSR. I just don't care. It's only a charity. So what? Harris County ought to treat the HLSR as any other tenant and seek what is in the best interests of their consituency. Governments ought not engage in any form of charity...doing so defeats the very purpose of the word.

And don't forget that convention hotels produce lots of tax revenues: property taxes, hotel taxes, liquor taxes. Also don't forget that by maintaining the Astrodome facility themselves, ARC would be saving Harris County the cost of keeping the dome in mothballs; from a purely financial standpoint, Harris County should be willing to pay ARC to take the liability that is the Astrodome off their hands! You say that ARC would "provide the county nothing". I say "nothing" is better than red ink, and that the "something" that actually could be provided is better than a barn.

[Dieseldrvr]

Most Houstonians I've discussed this current event with as upset at the Texans and the Rodeo. They want the dome saved and like the idea of the hotel. They (myself included) feel the Texans and Rodeo are forgetting what the citizens of Houston have given them over the last 50 years. This deal will make money for our citizens, a barn won't. It's easy to see that the Texans and Rodeo aren't acting in the citizens best interest.

More with the "barn" reference?? I think we have firmly established that is a fabrication that somehow people didn't read the actual idea before speaking. When has ANYONE indicated it would be a barn, because the Rodeo certainly hasn't. Also, when will you research what you and several others are saying about what the citizens have given the Rodeo, want to look in the mirror and direct that back to yourself?? What the Rodeo has given the community is something NO OTHER city can claim. If your city had the Super Bowl EVERY YEAR you wouldn't bring in as much money to the citizens of the County as the Rodeo does EVERY YEAR, that's just Economic impact to businesses in the area, meaning many of the citizens. The Rodeo also provided several of your precious buildings on the site, as well as much of the reason you even have the new facilities that are there, those are facts you are completely ignoring. They have also provided scholarships to thousands of kids, and educational programs to hundreds of thousands. Why are you ignoring the facts here? Where did any Rodeo official indicate they wouldn't save the Dome in it's original state, but fixed up and renovated to further it's purpose? Your silly company that wants to "redevelop" it want's to strip it of virtually any use to the majority of the County's citizens, strip it of it's architectural significance, and strip it from the County having control over it's own land.

[RedScare]

I can see you are winning the PR war. Keep it up.

[Dieseldrvr]

Unlike Red, I will concede that a convention hotel on the site may result in some lost concessions to the HLSR. I just don't care. It's only a charity. So what? Harris County ought to treat the HLSR as any other tenant and seek what is in the best interests of their consituency. Governments ought not engage in any form of charity...doing so defeats the very purpose of the word.

And don't forget that convention hotels produce lots of tax revenues: property taxes, hotel taxes, liquor taxes. Also don't forget that by maintaining the Astrodome facility themselves, ARC would be saving Harris County the cost of keeping the dome in mothballs; from a purely financial standpoint, Harris County should be willing to pay ARC to take the liability that is the Astrodome off their hands! You say that ARC would "provide the county nothing". I say "nothing" is better than red ink, and that the "something" that actually could be provided is better than a barn.

Seriously, I'm tired of this, please, ANYONE, provide ONE SINGLE shred of evidence anyone who is a Rodeo official has indicated they will make a Barn out of the Astrodome? Housing animals for the show is something every single facility out there does during the Show, so you can't use the show's days as evidence, because that would make Reliant Center a barn too, and I doubt you would say it's a barn when OTC is in there. And where do you get these things about the Dome is or would be "red ink" if the RODEO paid for and redeveloped the Dome and DONATED it back to the County just like EVERY other construction project they have completed there???

And how can you say that they should treat HLSR as just another tenant, THEY'RE NOT, they have invested in the entire facilities you see there, have helped pay for the new stadium you watch games in, and have improved the entire place, they're hardly just "tenants". You talk about the Dome's costs, how can you even use that line that simply isn't true, the Rodeo alone has paid many times over ALL the costs every year for the Dome. I'm not sure how the best interests of the constituency is to make a single use facility out of possible convention space that could earn money for the county? Where is your logic?

[Dieseldrvr]

I can see you are winning the PR war. Keep it up.

Red, it's not a PR war, it's simple logic and reality. I simply can't understand people who can't see the forest for the trees.

[Mark F. Barnes]

Tearing down the Dome would be much like tearing down the Empire State Building because it's old and out dated and in need of upgrading. I don't care where you go in the world, you mention Astrodome, and people immediately think Houston. It was the first of it's kind, so far ahead of it's time. I watched it being built, attended that first game there, and will never forget being literally in awe of the building.

[RedScare]

Red, it's not a PR war, it's simple logic and reality. I simply can't understand people who can't see the forest for the trees.

It certainly is a PR war. The millions of dollars given to your charity come from the same citizens who pay taxes to build that facility. If your charity assists in the destruction of that iconic facility, many of the taxpayers who also fund your charity will be upset. They may decide to take their disposable income elsewhere. You ignore that reality at your charity's peril.

As Niche pointed out, an adaptive reuse of the Dome will not only save the taxpayers (your charitable contributors) millions of dollars in mothball expenses, it will generate positive cashflow to the County. The only suggestion I have seen from you or the Rodeo is to tear down an income producing facility (Reliant Arena) and move those events to the Dome. That does little for the taxpayers (your charitable contributors). It doesn't take an economist to do that math.

No one is trying to get rid of the Rodeo, or even diminish it. We ARE saying that the taxpayers that own the Rodeo Grounds be considered. While there may well be 35,000 volunteers and 19,000 committee members, the 2,000,000 paying customers are the ones who pay the bills and fund the scholarships. And, we are also the ones who want to save the Dome. You would be wise not to dismiss our concerns so easily.

[Dieseldrvr]

It certainly is a PR war. The millions of dollars given to your charity come from the same citizens who pay taxes to build that facility. If your charity assists in the destruction of that iconic facility, many of the taxpayers who also fund your charity will be upset. They may decide to take their disposable income elsewhere. You ignore that reality at your charity's peril.

As Niche pointed out, an adaptive reuse of the Dome will not only save the taxpayers (your charitable contributors) millions of dollars in mothball expenses, it will generate positive cashflow to the County. The only suggestion I have seen from you or the Rodeo is to tear down an income producing facility (Reliant Arena) and move those events to the Dome. That does little for the taxpayers (your charitable contributors). It doesn't take an economist to do that math.

No one is trying to get rid of the Rodeo, or even diminish it. We ARE saying that the taxpayers that own the Rodeo Grounds be considered. While there may well be 35,000 volunteers and 19,000 committee members, the 2,000,000 paying customers are the ones who pay the bills and fund the scholarships. And, we are also the ones who want to save the Dome. You would be wise not to dismiss our concerns so easily.

Once again, your statements are totally frought with misstatements and I can't seem to understand where you come up with this stuff. Please find one reference ANY Rodeo official, or I have EVER ALLUDED OR IMPLIED that destruction of the Dome would be what they are trying to do? The Rodeo is trying to preserve the facility MORE THAN ANY OTHER GROUP! Where do you come up with this stuff? Also the Charity that you talk about returns 87% of all of those millions to the community, so 87 cents of every single dollar you spend out there goes back to a portion of the community to help education, this is not a for profit organization. And where do you not hear the fact that the taxpayers are not spending a single dime on the dome's mothball expenses, the Rodeo has paid those and every penny of expenses 5 times over EVERY YEAR. so that argument is no longer valid, because the Rodeo ALONE keeps the Dome CASH FLOW POSITIVE AND ALWAYS HAS, it doesn't take even a high school degree to add and subtract the simple math, if all of the yearly expenses are 2 million, including lights and ALL expenses, which that's probably an overstatement, and the Rodeo brings the county well in excess of $10 million, you do the math. I feel the need to capitalize words because you don't seem to be reading clearly. What of any of this is not understood? Where do you see anyone dismissing the views and the best interests of the citizens?

[TheNiche]

Seriously, I'm tired of this, please, ANYONE, provide ONE SINGLE shred of evidence anyone who is a Rodeo official has indicated they will make a Barn out of the Astrodome? Housing animals for the show is something every single facility out there does during the Show, so you can't use the show's days as evidence, because that would make Reliant Center a barn too, and I doubt you would say it's a barn when OTC is in there. And where do you get these things about the Dome is or would be "red ink" if the RODEO paid for and redeveloped the Dome and DONATED it back to the County just like EVERY other construction project they have completed there???

And how can you say that they should treat HLSR as just another tenant, THEY'RE NOT, they have invested in the entire facilities you see there, have helped pay for the new stadium you watch games in, and have improved the entire place, they're hardly just "tenants". You talk about the Dome's costs, how can you even use that line that simply isn't true, the Rodeo alone has paid many times over ALL the costs every year for the Dome. I'm not sure how the best interests of the constituency is to make a single use facility out of possible convention space that could earn money for the county? Where is your logic?

The 'barn' conclusion is what was gathered by a description of how it'd be put to use. They don't call it a barn because that'd be bad PR. But if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. And if the duck can dance, then its a dancing duck...but it's still inescapably a duck. People are just calling it like they see it with the barn comments.

The County has three basic ptions available: 1) tear it down, 2) do nothing and pay maintenance, or 3) find someone to take this massive liability off their hands. Tearing it down is actually more expensive than maintaining it into perpetuity, so option 1 is off the table. And given that there's going to be a substantial cost to doing nothing, the County could technically pay somebody some amount of money to assume control of the dome and be better off than they are now; paying anybody would be politically infeasible, however...and besides, there's probably sufficient market demand that they'll be able to come out ahead by having someone do something with it. So option 2 is very unlikely. Whether it be the ARC, the HSLR, or some other entity that takes over the dome is besides the point. You said that a convention hotel there would "provide the county nothing", but that is materially false. Redevelopment plans are far better than the basic alternatives, regardless of who carries them out.

The real issue, as far as the County ought to be concerned, is which entity can pay the highest price to take over the dome! They ought to bear in mind that converting the dome to a convention hotel may piss off the HSLR bigwigs, but it won't cause them to put a stop to the rodeo, so Harris County is still going to realize income from HSLR operating at Reliant Park one way or the other. And sure, the amount that can be charged to HSLR to lease facilities each year may be somewhat less, but a convention hotel generates property taxes, hotel taxes, sales taxes, and liquor taxes, not to mention several hundred permanent year-round jobs for people that go out and spend their earned money elsewhere within the county, and not to mention that a convention hotel with large facilities that is closely aligned with the TMC is sorely needed and will further our economic development in that area.

Rodeos can be thrown in tents. Thriving cities can't. In my reasoned opinion, Harris County needs to do what is most clearly in their best interests, and a convention hotel will have a stunningly positive impact. Certainly a better impact than a barn.

Edited February 1, 2008 by TheNiche

[TheNiche]

Also the Charity that you talk about returns 87% of all of those millions to the community, so 87 cents of every single dollar you spend out there goes back to a portion of the community to help education, this is not a for profit organization.

Yeah, it takes from some set of people and gives to another set. I have some big concerns when governments assist in that process. ...after all, everybody knows that non-profits aren't driven by self-interest and only want what's best for all of society.

I see through the thin smokescreen that is your PR.

if all of the yearly expenses are 2 million, including lights and ALL expenses, which that's probably an overstatement, and the Rodeo brings the county well in excess of $10 million, you do the math.

Citing your rents for the entirety of Reliant Park doesn't do much to support that they're keeping the dome in the black. If the dome were removed from the picture, even in a way that hurts HSLR directly, HSLR wouldn't go away and the County would continue receiving a big fat check every year.

[RedScare]

I see through the thin smokescreen that is your PR.

He's just repeating the Rodeo's talking points, as enumerated in THIS document.

I notice that, like the document itself, nowhere does diesel explain why we have a 15% hotel tax to retire the bonds on these facilities, if the Rodeo's rent is covering all of the costs. I also wonder why the Rodeo waited until AFTER a proposal to redevelop the Dome was made to suddenly tell us that they could use it themselves. He also failed to point out that the cost to build Reliant Stadium increased $50 million to add the retractable roof that the Rodeo required to keep their marketing phrase, "The World's Largest Indoor Rodeo".

While he assaults my "logic", diesel never offers any hard numbers disputing my points.

[HermanPark]

Does anyone have any connections with the gentlman named in the story below? I wonder if he would consider the Dome a viable candidate for what he would like to do - proximity to TMC etc...

http://houston.bizjournals.com/houston/sto...1496400^1581793

[Dieseldrvr]

The 'barn' conclusion is what was gathered by a description of how it'd be put to use. They don't call it a barn because that'd be bad PR. But if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. And if the duck can dance, then its a dancing duck...but it's still inescapably a duck. People are just calling it like they see it with the barn comments.

So I guess by your lack of logic, Reliant Center is a barn? Because that's what it is for the entirety of the Show, so is The AstroArena, is that a barn? How do you come up with this stuff? Was the old compaq center a circus because it had one every year? That was absolutely not the description given, it was given that would be the use of it during the show, the rest of the year it would function as the rest of the facilities that do that same thing during the show, a county earning event facility. So try again with something real.

The County has three basic ptions available: 1) tear it down, 2) do nothing and pay maintenance, or 3) find someone to take this massive liability off their hands. Tearing it down is actually more expensive than maintaining it into perpetuity, so option 1 is off the table. And given that there's going to be a substantial cost to doing nothing, the County could technically pay somebody some amount of money to assume control of the dome and be better off than they are now; paying anybody would be politically infeasible, however...and besides, there's probably sufficient market demand that they'll be able to come out ahead by having someone do something with it. So option 2 is very unlikely. Whether it be the ARC, the HSLR, or some other entity that takes over the dome is besides the point. You said that a convention hotel there would "provide the county nothing", but that is materially false. Redevelopment plans are far better than the basic alternatives, regardless of who carries them out.

The real issue, as far as the County ought to be concerned, is which entity can pay the highest price to take over the dome! They ought to bear in mind that converting the dome to a convention hotel may piss off the HSLR bigwigs, but it won't cause them to put a stop to the rodeo, so Harris County is still going to realize income from HSLR operating at Reliant Park one way or the other. And sure, the amount that can be charged to HSLR to lease facilities each year may be somewhat less, but a convention hotel generates property taxes, hotel taxes, sales taxes, and liquor taxes, not to mention several hundred permanent year-round jobs for people that go out and spend their earned money elsewhere within the county, and not to mention that a convention hotel with large facilities that is closely aligned with the TMC is sorely needed and will further our economic development in that area.

1. tear it down, Rodeo is completely against this and would fight for this to never happen, they could use the facilities.

2. Still not listening? The county isn't paying anything, it's cash flow positive as it sits from Rodeo alone, so you're making money.

3. You're saying it's better monetarily for the County to lease it 50 plus years to a private firm to make most of the money, versus let a group redevelop it at their own expense, Rodeo's, and DONATE it back to the county as they have done numerous times with the facilities there, and would pay to rent it back every year, and it would generate direct event money for the County and improve the total event package offered at Reliant domain? Again, no rocket scientist to figure out the Rodeo's plan would substantially provide more money to the county than a few tax dollars. Not to mention all the jobs to renovate and operate the facility, might not be as many as the hotel, but would the County sacrifice all of that for a few service jobs that will probably be around anyways by a hotel probably built offsite? So leases, total facility donation and redevelopment cost donation, and Event revenue don't add up to taxes? I'm sure you would be upset when the County has to reimburse the Rodeo for millions in lost revenue because the ARC violates the legal leases and contracts between the County and Rodeo, there goes all of your tax revenue.

Rodeos can be thrown in tents. Thriving cities can't. In my reasoned opinion, Harris County needs to do what is most clearly in their best interests, and a convention hotel will have a stunningly positive impact. Certainly a better impact than a barn.

Unfortunately for you, this Rodeo can't, I doubt there's enough tents in the state that could handle this show. I seriously doubt Houstons "thriving" status rests on this hotel being built at ONLY this site on County land. Again, I have no idea where people get this barn concept, I guess that Reliant Stadium is strictly a rodeo arena, not an NFL stadium, just because it has a rodeo in it?

[RedScare]

I'm sure you would be upset when the County has to reimburse the Rodeo for millions in lost revenue because the ARC violates the legal leases and contracts between the County and Rodeo, there goes all of your tax revenue.

And there you have it folks! That great charity, the Houston Livestock Show & Rodeo, the charity that we built a $350 million roofed stadium for, is so grateful to us taxpayers that they'll sue us if we get in their way! Thanks for the heads up, we'll take it under advisement.

You know, I know Bob McNair is a big member of the Club For Growth, a free market, small government politcial action committee, and it is a safe bet that the overwhelming majority of Rodeo volunteers are diehard less tax, small government Republicans, but when it comes to the $350 million we ponied up to build their brand new stadium, we don't get much thanks. Now, that Harris County is trying to do the fiscally responsible thing and make the Dome a revenue generater, they are openly hostile. Hardly fits the profile....or does it?

Edited February 1, 2008 by RedScare

[Dieseldrvr]

He's just repeating the Rodeo's talking points, as enumerated in THIS document.

Do you dispute these facts?

I notice that, like the document itself, nowhere does diesel explain why we have a 15% hotel tax to retire the bonds on these facilities, if the Rodeo's rent is covering all of the costs. I also wonder why the Rodeo waited until AFTER a proposal to redevelop the Dome was made to suddenly tell us that they could use it themselves. He also failed to point out that the cost to build Reliant Stadium increased $50 million to add the retractable roof that the Rodeo required to keep their marketing phrase, "The World's Largest Indoor Rodeo".

While he assaults my "logic", diesel never offers any hard numbers disputing my points.

Do you also dispute that the Rodeo supported and paid for construction overrun's and costs, as I understand is more than 50 million dollars to make your Reliant Stadium that you watch the Texans in, and other events, but don't quote me on that, I'm not anyone involved with that deal. But numerous articles I have seen refer to the investment the rodeo had to make in order to bring the NFL to Houston and build the facility.

[Dieseldrvr]

And there you have it folks! That great charity, the Houston Livestock Show & Rodeo, the charity that we built a $350 million roofed stadium for, is so grateful to us taxpayers that they'll sue us if we get in their way! Thanks for the heads up, we'll take it under advisement.

Where did I say sue, I would say the County would have to offer up this at minimum in order to get HLSR to agree to waive it's legal lease terms in order to let this hotel be built. Why would they give up millions in revenue to it's charity on a project they feel hurts the site as a whole and doesn't best represent the citizens? That would be a fiscally stupid idea, certainly not in the best interests of the charity recipients. And again, the Rodeo helped build that stadium for YOU, and provided that roof so you are comfortable while you watch events in the stadium THEY helped build. Do you go to OTC, ever been to a car show, or ANY event prior to the Center being built??? THEY ARE THE REASON YOU WERE ABLE TO DO THAT. Hmm, I guess they have given you quite a bit huh?

[RedScare]

THEY ARE THE REASON YOU WERE ABLE TO DO THAT. Hmm, I guess they have given you quite a bit huh?

I agree, the HSLR and the Texans are the reason Harris County taxpayers have a $350 million bond debt, paid for with my tax dollars.

I am deeply inDEBTED to you for that.

Edited February 1, 2008 by RedScare