Proposed Astrodome Hotel

[musicman]

Now that is an interesting idea. Would that likely be the world's largest art museum? Maybe a combo MFAH branch/Houston history museum ...

too bad they can't resurrect the old scoreboard.

[TheNiche]

Ah, great news. The rodeo wants to turn the Astrodome into a barn for livestock for 3 weeks out of the year. That makes so much more sense than a Gaylord type hotel and convention center.

Hey, we can finally literally ____ on our history!

Yep, I'm in complete agreement.

In fact, if the HSLR is going to be such a thorn in our side, with apparently no regard for the realities of a big city or the well-being of its citizens, I'd propose that Harris County just refuse to renew the lease at the earliest available opportunity. Kick them out of Reliant Park. Let them fend for themselves, and if they wish to lease a venue for three weeks at a time each year, allow them that.

I want a Gaylord-like convention hotel there, and I want a sports-themed entertainment/retail district lining an extension of Holly Hall from Fannin to the dome. We all know it can be done, and that the deal can be structured in a way that is enormously beneficial to the Texans.

[bkjones98]

Myself, I would like to see the Astrodome donated to the MFAH. The interior field could serve as a sculpture garden, the ramps would be perfect for display of art, and there would be plenty of natural light. Think of the Guggenheim, Texas-scale. And on top of all that, MFAH would have a home of true architectural merit.

That is a good idea. Maybe not donate it just to the HMFA, but to the Houston Art Alliance or whatever that organization is called that represents the museums. I do wonder, however, if those entities could actually support the cost of owning the Dome.

I agree that the parking garage is a reasonable idea, even if it seems kind of humiliating. I just worry that turning it into a parking garage would basically gut the whole building and all that would be left was the roof.

Casino.

Edited January 28, 2008 by bkjones98

[ricco67]

I think it can be both, there is more than enough room to have 2 or 3 HUGE levels of parking hidden discretely away and then have all that everyone wants on top with room to spare.

I just think that the Texans and HLSR are just being totally unreasonable in their demands.

[lockmat]

http://swamplot.com/astrodome-future-whole...ace/2008-01-28/

If you were wondering why the four-year effort to redevelop the Astrodome seemed like it was being run by the Keystone Kops, here’s a small piece of information that might start to explain a few things: Michael Surface, who up until a few weeks ago was chairman of the Harris County Sports and Convention Corp., has been indicted on corruption charges:

Edited January 28, 2008 by lockmat

[houston-development]

right now is the absolute worst possible time to raise equity and/or secure commitments from lenders.

i would rather have the developers use this time to dot their Is and cross their Ts three or four times over. the dome aint going anywhere any time soon, so why not explore other possibilities.

personally, would rather have an eyesore for a couple more years and then a wonderful project than some rushed POS which we will regret later down the road.

[TheNiche]

right now is the absolute worst possible time to raise equity and/or secure commitments from lenders.

If there's any place in the country that lenders could be willing to cozy up to right now, provided reasonably tight underwriting, it'd be Texas.

Raising capital is less convenient that it had been, that seems to be true, but it is out there...and it doesn't hurt to have a big project using a structure with international top-of-mind recognition.

Edited January 30, 2008 by TheNiche

[Subdude]

That is a good idea. Maybe not donate it just to the HMFA, but to the Houston Art Alliance or whatever that organization is called that represents the museums. I do wonder, however, if those entities could actually support the cost of owning the Dome.

I agree that the parking garage is a reasonable idea, even if it seems kind of humiliating. I just worry that turning it into a parking garage would basically gut the whole building and all that would be left was the roof.

Casino.

Somehow I suspect that the MFAH wouldn't want the Dome as a new home. Despite its architectural history, they would probably prefer to expand with new "starchitect" additions.

If the museum doesn't want it, what would be humiliating about using it for parking? It would be very appropriate. Houston's all about parking.

[bkjones98]

If the museum doesn't want it, what would be humiliating about using it for parking? It would be very appropriate. Houston's all about parking.

I know your slightly kidding, but I do love the irony of making more parking. I just don't like the idea of gutting it and filling it with concert. IMO, saving at least some of what it was like as a venue should be part of any plan.

<------I mean, this is my icon we're talking about!

Edited January 30, 2008 by bkjones98

[BigSky]

I think the Hotel is the silliest idea I have ever heard. Why would you have two competting convention center hotels less than 7 miles away from each other. An investor would not invest in 2 franchieses of McDonalds this close to each other, so I don't think that any investor would think it is a good idea to have Hilton Hotel with GRB connected and then the Gaylord Hotel connected to Reliant Convention hall. It doesn't make sense.

[AstrosFreak]

I think the Hotel is the silliest idea I have ever heard. Why would you have two competting convention center hotels less than 7 miles away from each other. An investor would not invest in 2 franchieses of McDonalds this close to each other, so I don't think that any investor would think it is a good idea to have Hilton Hotel with GRB connected and then the Gaylord Hotel connected to Reliant Convention hall. It doesn't make sense.

That's like saying that an investor would not build a starbucks across the street from another starbucks, but that happens all the time. If you can make a profit you go for it. This isn't some small city; Houston has the population and the economy to make something like this work.

Also, one of Houston's biggest problems is its lack of conventions, and a large, new convention hotel could bring back a spark to the "convention-scene." Organizers are looking for large convention hotels to keep all of their people in one nearby location and before the Hilton, Houston couldn't provide that service. This could be the push that the city needs - not just for important conventions - to land large scale events, such as the Super Bowl or the Olympics. I don't see how a hotel like this could cause any harm to the city.

Also, the HLSR can pretty much go to hell. Considering the HLSR was created as a charity event, I'm really sick of seeing it act like the money-grubbing corporation it has become.

[musicman]

I think the Hotel is the silliest idea I have ever heard. Why would you have two competting convention center hotels less than 7 miles away from each other. An investor would not invest in 2 franchieses of McDonalds this close to each other, so I don't think that any investor would think it is a good idea to have Hilton Hotel with GRB connected and then the Gaylord Hotel connected to Reliant Convention hall. It doesn't make sense.

neither does your comment.

[lockmat]

Are we missing something here? Isn't Reliant Park already a convention center? Wouldn't the hotel just be adding to it? So we already have competing venues. Not to mention I'm sure we have other competitors, albeit they're not as big like the Woodlands Convention center.

[musicman]

Not to mention I'm sure we have other competitors, albeit they're not as big like the Woodlands Convention center.

not sure 70000 sq ft is "big". many hotels have more meeting space.

[lockmat]

not sure 70000 sq ft is "big". many hotels have more meeting space.

My bad, I just meant The Woodlands one is smaller. Bad wording on my part.

[Dieseldrvr]

Also, the HLSR can pretty much go to hell. Considering the HLSR was created as a charity event, I'm really sick of seeing it act like the money-grubbing corporation it has become.

I'm not sure what your problem is with the charity in town that brings in more money to the city than a Superbowl, EVERY year. The Hotel is 1300 rooms, so wouldn't serve Texans who sell out every game, or Rodeo, who handles close to 100,000 people every day, for much use except to take millions away from the charity that gives out scholarships to thousands of Texas and Houston students every year. Why would a single purpose facility be the way to go. Why wouldn't a multipurpose facility better serve the needs of the site, which is all multipurpose? The Rodeo I believe is putting up their own proposal to renovate the Dome into a multiuse facility that could replace the AstroArena, thus consolidating more the facilities, and providing more parking, sounds like a great idea to me. The Rodeo has already proved they could do it, considering they built and donated the AstroHall, the AstroArena, and the huge warehouse on the site to the County.

[TheNiche]

The Rodeo I believe is putting up their own proposal to renovate the Dome into a multiuse facility that could replace the AstroArena, thus consolidating more the facilities, and providing more parking, sounds like a great idea to me.

So HSLR wants to convert the dome into a barn, then tear down convention space and install more surface parking. And you think that's a good idea in a part of town where bulk land costs >$50 per square foot!?

"Multiuse facility" is a euphamism. It also applys well to raw land. You can throw rodeos, carnivals, boat shows, tent revivals, all in a place with no essentially no infrastructure. Water trucks, electric generators, port-o-potties, that's all they need. I say that Harris County ought to oust them from Reliant Park and since they're so financially viable, they shouldn't have any trouble at all buying land somewhere in the exurbs and developing their own "multi-use center". Then Harris County can utilize the dome and develop Reliant Park much more freely, in a way that actually makes sense for the urban core of a major American city.

[Houston19514]

So HSLR wants to convert the dome into a barn, then tear down convention space and install more surface parking. And you think that's a good idea in a part of town where bulk land costs >$50 per square foot!?

"Multiuse facility" is a euphamism. It also applys well to raw land. You can throw rodeos, carnivals, boat shows, tent revivals, all in a place with no essentially no infrastructure. Water trucks, electric generators, port-o-potties, that's all they need. I say that Harris County ought to oust them from Reliant Park and since they're so financially viable, they shouldn't have any trouble at all buying land somewhere in the exurbs and developing their own "multi-use center". Then Harris County can utilize the dome and develop Reliant Park much more freely, in a way that actually makes sense for the urban core of a major American city.

Never mind that "ousting" them from Reliant Park would cause an immediate default on the Reliant Stadium bonds, which are in part funded by the rodeo. Never mind that "ousting" them from Reliant Park would put a huge hole in Reliant Park's revenue. Never mind that "ousting" them from Reliant Park would be biting the hand that feeds Reliant Park (as noted above, the rodeo paid for AstroHall, the AstroArena, and the huge warehouse on the site, and Reliant Center would likely not have been possible without the guaranteed revenue stream from the rodeo.) Yea, ousting the rodeo from Reliant Park is a great idea!

Having said that, I too do not think very highly of their proposal to turn the Astrodome into a barn. I can see the problems both the Texans and the rodeo have with the hotel proposal, but it seems like they should be able to work out something to get everyone on board. In general I LOVE the hotel proposal, but I really don't like the plan to cover roughly 2/3 of the outside of the dome with a new parking garage. Rather defeats the purpose of preserving the dome, IMO.

[TheNiche]

Never mind that "ousting" them from Reliant Park would cause an immediate default on the Reliant Stadium bonds, which are in part funded by the rodeo. Never mind that "ousting" them from Reliant Park would put a huge hole in Reliant Park's revenue. Never mind that "ousting" them from Reliant Park would be biting the hand that feeds Reliant Park (as noted above, the rodeo paid for AstroHall, the AstroArena, and the huge warehouse on the site, and Reliant Center would likely not have been possible without the guaranteed revenue stream from the rodeo.) Yea, ousting the rodeo from Reliant Park is a great idea!

I'm all about revenue generation. Reliant Park could be master planned as a much more effective "multi-use facility" with large commercial and residential components that compliment the convention and sporting facilities, not to mention put an underutilized LRT stop to better use and provide a destination for TMC employees, students, and visitors.

[Dieseldrvr]

Having said that, I too do not think very highly of their proposal to turn the Astrodome into a barn. I can see the problems both the Texans and the rodeo have with the hotel proposal, but it seems like they should be able to work out something to get everyone on board. In general I LOVE the hotel proposal, but I really don't like the plan to cover roughly 2/3 of the outside of the dome with a new parking garage. Rather defeats the purpose of preserving the dome, IMO.

The only problem with what you all are saying about this "Barn"?? Where did anyone get that idea, the Chron, a "News"paper, didn't do their homework. The rodeo said they would use the facility they built it into as a replacement for AstroArena, not a barn. The Chron and readers came up with that conclusion. It would be no more a year round barn than Reliant Center is, or the AstroArena, both of which are basically "barn"s during the Show too, but no one complains about them year round. Their plan of a replacement for the astroarena would include ways to make the structure do as much as or more than the Arena, which handles many concerts, small conventions, the WNBA Comet's games as of 2008, Gymnastics national tournaments, and many other events. So I can't see why another space that is more updated than the quite old and outdated Arena wouldn't be great, and it would keep the Dome's purpose of an event place. And it would not violate contracts and agreements longstanding and beneficial to the county. And anyone complaining about the cost of the Dome and why don't the Rodeo and Texans pay for it, they are. The Rodeo alone brings in 10 million to the County in just rental of the property and some concession licenses, so the estimated 2 million a year in lights and mothballs is more than made up in the 2 months a year the Rodeo occupies the site.

[GovernorAggie]

I would rather the Rodeo update Reliant Arena and allow to Dome to become something more than just another "multi-use facility" that would be a place to really brag about, even if its just to our family members who visit. Throw in the fact that apparently Houston is going t submit another DOA application for the Super Bowl that will be the most technically superior (liek Houston's applications for large events ALWAYS are) and used to squeeze what can be had from cities like Miami, New Orleans, and Tampa.

Edited January 31, 2008 by GovernorAggie

[Houston19514]

The only problem with what you all are saying about this "Barn"?? Where did anyone get that idea, the Chron, a "News"paper, didn't do their homework. The rodeo said they would use the facility they built it into as a replacement for AstroArena, not a barn. The Chron and readers came up with that conclusion. It would be no more a year round barn than Reliant Center is, or the AstroArena, both of which are basically "barn"s during the Show too, but no one complains about them year round. Their plan of a replacement for the astroarena would include ways to make the structure do as much as or more than the Arena, which handles many concerts, small conventions, the WNBA Comet's games as of 2008, Gymnastics national tournaments, and many other events. So I can't see why another space that is more updated than the quite old and outdated Arena wouldn't be great, and it would keep the Dome's purpose of an event place. And it would not violate contracts and agreements longstanding and beneficial to the county. And anyone complaining about the cost of the Dome and why don't the Rodeo and Texans pay for it, they are. The Rodeo alone brings in 10 million to the County in just rental of the property and some concession licenses, so the estimated 2 million a year in lights and mothballs is more than made up in the 2 months a year the Rodeo occupies the site.

Excellent points. Thank you for the correction. Makes me interested to hear more about the Rodeo's plans.

[Trae]

The only problem with what you all are saying about this "Barn"?? Where did anyone get that idea, the Chron, a "News"paper, didn't do their homework. The rodeo said they would use the facility they built it into as a replacement for AstroArena, not a barn. The Chron and readers came up with that conclusion. It would be no more a year round barn than Reliant Center is, or the AstroArena, both of which are basically "barn"s during the Show too, but no one complains about them year round. Their plan of a replacement for the astroarena would include ways to make the structure do as much as or more than the Arena, which handles many concerts, small conventions, the WNBA Comet's games as of 2008, Gymnastics national tournaments, and many other events. So I can't see why another space that is more updated than the quite old and outdated Arena wouldn't be great, and it would keep the Dome's purpose of an event place. And it would not violate contracts and agreements longstanding and beneficial to the county. And anyone complaining about the cost of the Dome and why don't the Rodeo and Texans pay for it, they are. The Rodeo alone brings in 10 million to the County in just rental of the property and some concession licenses, so the estimated 2 million a year in lights and mothballs is more than made up in the 2 months a year the Rodeo occupies the site.

Hell no is what I say. The roder can update the Reliant Arena and let the Astrodome become a 1300 room hotel. That 1300 room hotel could house people going to the roder (they can stay overnight, etc.). It can house performers as well. I don't know why anyone is against it. The Roder does not need the entire Astrodome space. They aren't losing anything. I don't believe many surface lots will be taken, and a parking garage is being built anyway to house more people.

The Roder happens one month out of the year. ONE MONTH. THe Astrodome Hotel would be there year round and be able to bring in MORE money to Reliant Park, as those conventions that can't make it into the GRB can head on down to Reliant Park, AND STILL, be connected to everything Houston has to offer by light rail.

[Dieseldrvr]

Hell no is what I say. The roder can update the Reliant Arena and let the Astrodome become a 1300 room hotel. That 1300 room hotel could house people going to the roder (they can stay overnight, etc.). It can house performers as well. I don't know why anyone is against it. The Roder does not need the entire Astrodome space. They aren't losing anything. I don't believe many surface lots will be taken, and a parking garage is being built anyway to house more people.

The Roder happens one month out of the year. ONE MONTH. THe Astrodome Hotel would be there year round and be able to bring in MORE money to Reliant Park, as those conventions that can't make it into the GRB can head on down to Reliant Park, AND STILL, be connected to everything Houston has to offer by light rail.

Correction to you, the HLSR DOES rent the entire grounds, from corner to corner, for 2 months out of the year, not just the nights it puts on the show. There are over 18,000 committeepersons who work on average over 60 hours to put things on. They are the biggest tenant of the entire place, and the place you love over there would probably not exist had it not been for HLSR and the people involved with it. and the hotel they are proposing would NEVER bring in as much money to the city as the Rodeo brings in during it's 2 month stay there, so I would say they have a bigger voice in what happens there, rather than an out of town group that is proposing something that would put the county in a very precarious legal position, considering the far most major 2 tenants are both against this terrible proposal. The hotel would cost the taxpayers money to reimburse the HLSR for the estimated 14 million plus that they are going to lose in revenue, along with some crazy ramp they will have to build to get people and employees into and out of this debacle, or they can have a venue that would benefit the area and bring more events to Houston for the citizens, and make money off of the HLSR to pay for the rent, oh, and have a total renovation at virtually no cost to the taxpayers. Hmm, which is the fiscally smarter and more responsible scenario? And I hate to tell you, but the conventions are going to Reliant Center no matter if there's a hotel there or not, and not one of them brings as much money to the city that HLSR does, so again, you don't allow a small group to rule the facilities of the majority. When you face it, the Rodeo is the big fish here.

[Trae]

Correction to you, the HLSR DOES rent the entire grounds, from corner to corner, for 2 months out of the year, not just the nights it puts on the show. There are over 18,000 committeepersons who work on average over 60 hours to put things on. They are the biggest tenant of the entire place, and the place you love over there would probably not exist had it not been for HLSR and the people involved with it. and the hotel they are proposing would NEVER bring in as much money to the city as the Rodeo brings in during it's 2 month stay there, so I would say they have a bigger voice in what happens there, rather than an out of town group that is proposing something that would put the county in a very precarious legal position, considering the far most major 2 tenants are both against this terrible proposal. The hotel would cost the taxpayers money to reimburse the HLSR for the estimated 14 million plus that they are going to lose in revenue, along with some crazy ramp they will have to build to get people and employees into and out of this debacle, or they can have a venue that would benefit the area and bring more events to Houston for the citizens, and make money off of the HLSR to pay for the rent, oh, and have a total renovation at virtually no cost to the taxpayers. Hmm, which is the fiscally smarter and more responsible scenario? And I hate to tell you, but the conventions are going to Reliant Center no matter if there's a hotel there or not, and not one of them brings as much money to the city that HLSR does, so again, you don't allow a small group to rule the facilities of the majority. When you face it, the Rodeo is the big fish here.

Okay I'm sorry. Two months. Still, that is just two out of the twelve months in a year. The hotel would make a year-round impact. It would aslo bring in MORE conventions (notice I never said Reliant Park doesn't see any conventions). If you are a small to medium size convention and the GRB is booked the weekend you want to be in Houston, wouldn't having a 1300-room convention hotel with shops and restaurants look VERY attractive? I believe the hotel would bring in much more economic impact that what the HLSR would bring in with their "development".

This is what should be inside the Astrodome:

I don't know how the rodeo would not want that. Those on a weekend getaway to Houston during Rodeo time could stay on site for the thing. With the possible redevelopment of the Astroworld site, this Astrodome redevelopment means so much more.

[Dieseldrvr]

Okay I'm sorry. Two months. Still, that is just two out of the twelve months in a year. The hotel would make a year-round impact. It would aslo bring in MORE conventions (notice I never said Reliant Park doesn't see any conventions). If you are a small to medium size convention and the GRB is booked the weekend you want to be in Houston, wouldn't having a 1300-room convention hotel with shops and restaurants look VERY attractive? I believe the hotel would bring in much more economic impact that what the HLSR would bring in with their "development".

Wouldn't a hotel near the site and an additional very updated convention venue be far more of an attraction? There's plenty room around the Dome that is available for development/redevelopment, the Park doesn't exist in a vaccuum, why wouldnt both support the greater goal, the "development" they are talking about bringing in would serve far more types that the current AstroArena would, and the Dome would, so it would be even more beneficial than a privately owned hotel on the site, blocking up things for everyone every time there's an event on the County owned portion.

I don't know how the rodeo would not want that. Those on a weekend getaway to Houston during Rodeo time could stay on site for the thing. With the possible redevelopment of the Astroworld site, this Astrodome redevelopment means so much more.

But you missed an important part of my post, why would Rodeo want to lose upwards of $14 million dollars of charitable revenue just so less than 1% of their guests could stay there? They would lose a significant amount of money, millions of dollars that would normally go to schools, teacher programs, scholarships, and other educational development programs.

[Trae]

Wouldn't a hotel near the site and an additional very updated convention venue be far more of an attraction? There's plenty room around the Dome that is available for development/redevelopment, the Park doesn't exist in a vaccuum, why wouldnt both support the greater goal, the "development" they are talking about bringing in would serve far more types that the current AstroArena would, and the Dome would, so it would be even more beneficial than a privately owned hotel on the site, blocking up things for everyone every time there's an event on the County owned portion.

Well, why don't you show me a plot on site that is large enough for a 1300 room hotel. And what is the Rodeo thinking about that can be used by everybody? I can't wait to see it.

But you missed an important part of my post, why would Rodeo want to lose upwards of $14 million dollars of charitable revenue just so less than 1% of their guests could stay there? They would lose a significant amount of money, millions of dollars that would normally go to schools, teacher programs, scholarships, and other educational development programs.

It is more than that. The hotel will help with overall revenues at Reliant Park period. This hotel is bigger than the Rodeo. And they won't lose the money if the private firm pays them their loses. You keep emphasizing those things at the end.

Edited January 31, 2008 by Trae

[ricco67]

Wouldn't a hotel near the site and an additional very updated convention venue be far more of an attraction? There's plenty room around the Dome that is available for development/redevelopment, the Park doesn't exist in a vaccuum, why wouldnt both support the greater goal, the "development" they are talking about bringing in would serve far more types that the current AstroArena would, and the Dome would, so it would be even more beneficial than a privately owned hotel on the site, blocking up things for everyone every time there's an event on the County owned portion.

But you missed an important part of my post, why would Rodeo want to lose upwards of $14 million dollars of charitable revenue just so less than 1% of their guests could stay there? They would lose a significant amount of money, millions of dollars that would normally go to schools, teacher programs, scholarships, and other educational development programs.

Dieseldrvr, first off, welcome to the addictive HAIF.

Secondly, we have debated a variety of uses for this complex in the previous 8 pages or so. I suggest a scan through them for the highlights.

HLSR's and the Texan's excuse that they will somehow lose money if another attraction/hotel is put into the Astrodome is very weak and don't have the city's interest at heart at all.

[BigSky]

I do not know the revenue stream of the HLSR, but I am more than certain that the two major issues tha they have with the hotel is that it will have a signficant impact to concession revenues and parking revenues. Also, if this Hotel flops, which I am more than certain it will, I am more than certain that they will be looking for a bail out from the County and that is a non-starter. I am certain that the Texans probably feel the same way as well.

I vote for John McClain's recommendation of actually turning the Astrodome into what it is...A Sports Museum highlighting sporting events in Houston. There were many historical sporting events have taken place: Muhammed Ali fought 4 times in the Dome; 'Stros scoreboard, Luv Ya Blue, Astroturf, Warren Moon, Earl Campbell, Jack Johnson, All Star Games, etc...

It would be great and venue and people would travel worldwide to see the largest sports museum in the world.

[ricco67]

Would you explain on how it would have a "significant" impact on revenue?

A few of us (including me) think it would be to their benefit for the hotel to be located there.

They state that if there were attractions there and a hotel there, then there would be that much less money that people can spend at the Rodeo.

However, if they STAY at the hotel, they would actually be able to spend more time (and money ) at the Rodeo because they wouldn't have such an expense to park (which I'm sure other patrons would happily will) and won't have to rent a car. If they're going to use that arguement, they why would they want Light rail, Park and Ride, and Taxi stands in use?

The same thing applies to the Texans games.

During OTC, that hotel would be sold out for a week before AND after the show. Remember, we're talking 75,000 attendees.

Believe me, a number of people that attend/host the events would stay at that hotel as well. As far as the attractions appealing to out of towners, that is something I can't really predict, but I'm sure if they're clever enough, they can do it well.

meanwhile, I'll be waiting to see what your counter argument is.