Minute Maid Park Mixed-Use Development

[shasta]

5 hours ago, hindesky said:

Meanwhile Steve Cohen owner of the Mets plans to build a $8 billion complex next to Citi Field.

THIS is what I was expecting from Jim Crane and the Astros 

[houstontexasjack]

1 hour ago, monarch said:

dallas is just as "affordable" as our fair city of houston, yet, THEY NEVER EVER STOP DREAMING BIG AND BRINGING THEIR RESPECTIVE DREAMS TO FRUITION.  what on earth, has houston performed lately?  heck, we are still awaiting news (after a decade) on our prospective W HOTEL... remember?  (what a JOKE we have become

I can’t think of much in Dallas proper that’s been done in the last few years that I’d say I’d envy. There’s Klyde Warren Park, but we have a bigger and better analogue in the pipeline with the I-45 reroute. 

Austin….okay, yeah, they’ve got stuff I’d want. Rainey Street’s under construction density is eye-popping.

7 minutes ago, shasta said:

THIS is what I was expecting from Jim Crane and the Astros 

The stadium complex at Flushing Meadows is far more akin to NRG than the Juice Box. It’s bordered by a freeway.  Oceans of parking not bounded by any urban grid. 

[monarch]

4 minutes ago, houstontexasjack said:

I can’t think of much in Dallas proper that’s been done in the last few years that I’d say I’d envy. There’s Klyde Warren Park, but we have a bigger and better analogue in the pipeline with the I-45 reroute. 

Austin….okay, yeah, they’ve got stuff I’d want. Rainey Street’s under construction density is eye-popping.

^^^ dallas brand spanking new renders for their ($3 billion + civic center) due to be completed 2028.  this ULTRA MAGNIFICENT behemoth shall bury the houston george r. brown convention center deep into the proverbial sand.

^^^ not one, but two new PICKARD CHILTON designed towers slated for downtown dallas.

^^^ GOLDMAN SACHS's new financial campus slated for dallas includes new hotels, condos, etc... can houston DARE to incorporate such a MAGNIFICENT financial campus such as this?  heck, we couldn't even construct the MCNAIR campus on POST OAK BLVD.

^^^ the new renders of the proposed DALLAS INTERNATIONAL DISTRICT.  heck, this appears very similar to houston's TMC HELIX PARK...

 

[houstontexasjack]

Goldman Sachs just broke ground on this in Dallas:

https://www.goldmansachs.com/media-relations/press-releases/multimedia/groundbreaking-dallas.html

That’s a pretty far cry from the conceptual rendering above.

The Pickard Chilton office tower looks nice. Nothing really to write home about. Let’s see if it actually happens.

 

[bookey23]

I'm glad someone brought up the Mets' new plans. They make Crane's plans look like such a joke. The guy owns like 6 blocks around the stadium and that's the best they could come up with? 1 building and a parking garage? I'm sure the forthcoming Big Dig in EaDo makes planning anything more difficult and the resulting cap parks will give us more of what we're hoping for, but why doesn't Crane do more with the parking lots on the north side of the stadium in the meantime?

[LosFeliz]

In fairness, the area around Citi Field is a wasteland. Much more opportunity to build from scratch on a much larger piece of property.

That said, Crane owns enough land around MMP that he could go much bigger than this first leak. The problem with building piecemeal is that if it starts with just a hotel and indoor mall(ish) looking thing with a massive garage, it might flop and discourage any further development (see Green Street or ROD that had bold ambition, built small, and now are essentially dead zones). 

[ChannelTwoNews]

12 hours ago, monarch said:

^^^ not one, but two new PICKARD CHILTON designed towers slated for downtown dallas.

The one pictured above - the Field Street Tower - was announced in 2021 as a spec tower by Hillwood. Nothing has been heard of it since though. These comments from Ross Jr. from June didn't sound too cheery about building new office towers anywhere for some time. 

The other I'm aware of is on hold as of the end of last year. It may or may not be built someday. CBRE has leased space for their HQ in an existing tower for the time being. The site is Uptown though, not Downtown.

12 hours ago, monarch said:

^^^ GOLDMAN SACHS's new financial campus slated for dallas includes new hotels, condos, etc... can houston DARE to incorporate such a MAGNIFICENT financial campus such as this?  heck, we couldn't even construct the MCNAIR campus on POST OAK BLVD.

Yup. It too has just as many towers as the McNair development in its present state - none.

It too is Uptown. It is likely all that will be coming out of the ground at this point.

This among other projects, also has brought about good questions about what should be done to keep Downtown Dallas competitive given the trend of corporate movement to the Uptown area and places further afield there.

12 hours ago, monarch said:

^^^ the new renders of the proposed DALLAS INTERNATIONAL DISTRICT.  heck, this appears very similar to houston's TMC HELIX PARK...

If I'm not mistaken, it's still a bare lot that housed an old mall that was demolished earlier in the year.

And it took about 10 years just to get to that point.

The back and forth getting just to that point sounds interesting though.

The first component is fairly modest and makes sense as it's low-rise apartments over shops. The developer is realistic about the negative prospects for developing office or anything substantial currently and how it's ultimately a long term project. It's interesting to see some of the similar discussions we have locally taking place there about location and wanting to be where the people are and with density and things like that outside of the urban core.

14 hours ago, monarch said:

^^^ dallas brand spanking new renders for their ($3 billion + civic center) due to be completed 2028.  this ULTRA MAGNIFICENT behemoth shall bury the houston george r. brown convention center deep into the proverbial sand.

The rendering makes a number of assumptions because, of course, it's a rendering.

-That Newpark's 20 acres (far left cluster of towers) is built. It received city funding for a portion of the project last year but it's been quiet since then. 

-That the HSR terminal (Top left) is built.

-That the nearly 30 acres opened up by the demolition of the existing space up to the old arena (which will be saved) and on the edge of Pioneer Park & Plaza is actually developed and becomes something other than greenspace.

I do like the idea of the I-30 deck park and improving the connectivity in/around the Hyatt/Reunion Tower/Union Station area and integrating it better with this part of downtown. I wonder how the existing DART stop inside will be reconfigured if at all. It also would be nice if it tied a bit better into the streetcar that's available as well. 

[Houston19514]

Some people seem to not understand the difference between flashy renderings (many of which will never be built) and actual developments.  How pathetic.  Here's some more info on the so-call Metropolitan Park:

But the fate of Metropolitan Park is still about as secure as a Mets late-inning lead.

As the land for the new facility is legally designated as parkland, Cohen would need to get the state legislature and Gov. Kathy Hochul to pass a law allowing commercial development there.

Key lawmakers — particularly state Sen. Jessica Ramos whose district includes Willets Point and the neighborhoods around it  — have not agreed thus far to support such legislation.

Names of legislators were conspicuously missing from a  press release showing support from business and community leaders. 

Senator Ramos, in a statement Tuesday, is still not on board, saying, “I will be hosting another town hall on this proposal at the end of the month. It’s important that my neighbors look carefully at the details and we’ll continue together with our process.”  

But Queens Borough President Donovan Richards issued a bullish statement saying, I’m encouraged by Steve Cohen’s Metropolitan Park plan and its numerous community-centric proposals.” The Queens Chamber of Commerce, among others, also expressed support

The casino [which is what this is] plan also requires approval from state gaming regulators.

Under current law, state officials can issue up to three new casino licenses in the downstate region that includes New York City.

The surrounding property is home to Flushing Corona Park, the U.S. Open Tennis Center, and a planned soccer stadium for New York City FC, which is backed by Mayor Eric Adams. 

Another potential stumbling block to a Cohen-owned casino is the state’s requirement of a background disclosure form where applicants attest to their “integrity, honesty, good character and reputation.”

In 2014, Cohen’s hedge fund SAC Capital was forced to pay a $1.8 billion penalty to the federal government after pleading guilty to wire fraud and securities fraud.

Cohen, who was never charged criminally, was accused of failing to prevent insider trading at the company, which he founded in 1992 and which bears his initials. 

But the baggage didn’t stop Major League Baseball from allowing Cohen to buy the Mets.

There’s a stiff combination of other developers and casino operators who have joined forces with proposals to build a casino in Times Square, Hudson Yards, Coney Island, and possibly Ferry Point in The Bronx, where gaming operator Bally’s replaced the Trump Organization as operator of the golf course.  

Two existing slots parlor operators — Genting at the Aqueduct race track and Empire Resorts MGM at Yonkers race track — are seeking two of three casino licenses to offer table games.

Still, billionaire Cohen and firms controlled by him have put a lot of chips on the table — spending millions of dollars on army lobbyists and delivering campaign donations to elected officials to help make his case to build the casino-entertainment complex.

JASON SZENES FOR THE NEW YORK POST

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Houston19514

[Houston19514]

21 hours ago, monarch said:

 

^^^ not one, but two new PICKARD CHILTON designed towers slated for downtown dallas.

 

Remind me where these Pickard Chilton towers are in Dallas.  Oh, that’s right…. They don’t exist.  And most likely never will.  Not one,  not two, but zero Pickard Chilton buildings I. Downtown Dallas.

 

Meanwhile, there are at least two actual  P-C buildings in downtown Houston.

[BeerNut]

[monarch]

^^^ we NEVER die... we MULTIPLY!

[houstontexasjack]

1 hour ago, monarch said:

^^^ we NEVER die... we MULTIPLY!

Well played, sir

[mattyt36]

Maybe Pickard Chilton can design the W Hotel that we've "all" been desperately waiting for.

[august948]

37 minutes ago, mattyt36 said:

Maybe Pickard Chilton can design the W Hotel that we've "all" been desperately waiting for.

One themed after this guy?

[mattyt36]

7 minutes ago, august948 said:

One themed after this guy?

A-OK with me

[samagon]

17 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

Some people seem to not understand the difference between flashy renderings (many of which will never be built) and actual developments.  How pathetic.  Here's some more info on the so-call Metropolitan Park:

But the fate of Metropolitan Park is still about as secure as a Mets late-inning lead.

even without your well thought and reasoned response, what things on that list of the Mets maybe amenities don't already exist in close proximity to MMP?

• conference area (George R Brown)
• park (Discovery Green, only 12 acres though)
• hotel (Marriott Marquis, Hilton Americas, Westin, etc)
• bars and restaurants (more than I can list)
• tailgate area (do people tailgate for baseball?)
• public plaza (if that's different from a park, then ok, there's the Avenida Plaza)
• solar panels (aren't there some on top of GRB?, and is that really something people are going to stop and say "hey, let's go hang out there, they have solar panels!")
• bike path (there's a few)
• renovated train station (do we need to renovate the rail stop already?)
• playground (I'm struggling to see why that is its own bullet when park is on the list already, and what's the difference between a park and a plaza anyway?) if we must though, disco green has some significant kid friendly areas
• food hall, and community space. is that seriously an amenity, and did they run out of creative names for public space after they used park, and plaza, so they just called it "community space"?

other than that, there's a sportsbook and a casino, both of which are fairly illegal in Houston, pretty sure he'd end up in jail if he opened either.

wouldn't the better use of funds be used somewhere else? maybe to make the team better so that more people come to an already flush downtown and are exposed to what's already good in that area of downtown?

[jhjones74]

54 minutes ago, samagon said:

even without your well thought and reasoned response, what things on that list of the Mets maybe amenities don't already exist in close proximity to MMP?

This is a fair argument, though if we already have all of these things, why is it that almost every place you listed sees hardly any increase in traffic before or after games? Aside from a couple of the spots right by the stadium, I've never seen a big increase come from Astros games.

It could be because none of these places are actually catering to or built for the Astros, though there's no doubt that Houstonians aren't used to urban/walkable experiences like New Yorkers are - a majority drive 30+ min to downtown, park, enjoy the game, and drive 30 min back to their house. As much as I hate to say it, this could be one of the reasons the Astros are hesitant to actually invest in making this area more like what a lot of us HAIFers are envisioning, particularly bars where people would stay to have 4-5 drinks and then have to drive back to the Woodlands...

[j_cuevas713]

13 minutes ago, jhjones74 said:

This is a fair argument, though if we already have all of these things, why is it that almost every place you listed sees hardly any increase in traffic before or after games? Aside from a couple of the spots right by the stadium, I've never seen a big increase come from Astros games.

It could be because none of these places are actually catering to or built for the Astros, though there's no doubt that Houstonians aren't used to urban/walkable experiences like New Yorkers are - a majority drive 30+ min to downtown, park, enjoy the game, and drive 30 min back to their house. As much as I hate to say it, this could be one of the reasons the Astros are hesitant to actually invest in making this area more like what a lot of us HAIFers are envisioning, particularly bars where people would stay to have 4-5 drinks and then have to drive back to the Woodlands...

Nah I don't think that's fair. While a lot of people come in to the city from the burbs, many inner city Houstonians still frequent the businesses around the ballpark when those outsiders aren't here. I think what's been leaked is a good example of how the Astros front office operates as a whole. Jim Crane talks big, does very little, and moves at a snails pace. My expectation after all this time was to at least see renderings for the northern side of the ballpark along with the old Home Plate location. If all we're getting in the next 3 years is one little building, then that's extremely disappointing. Crane has said in the past that he's waiting for the NHHIP project to finish before he'll consider redeveloping the eastern side of the ballpark. If he's waiting for all of that to finish, then this is going to be a long slow process. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by j_cuevas713

[monarch]

^^^ hey look, it's been proposed!  ok, we shall wait... we're waiting... we're still waiting... we've been waiting... we've been waiting far too long... i'm getting tired of waiting... i'm growing old from waiting... why aren't the other cities waiting... my hair has turned a shade of grey from waiting... my arthritis has erupted from waiting... another decade has come and passed from waiting... my tears are starting to flow from waiting... my tears have dried up from waiting... my headstone has cracked from waiting... heaven awaits...   

[LosFeliz]

Funny, but the places that were torn down on Texas always had crowds despite not being great. And the bar inside the Westin (Inn at the Ballpark) buzzes on game days. 

Build it well and they will come.

[august948]

11 minutes ago, LosFeliz said:

Funny, but the places that were torn down on Texas always had crowds despite not being great. And the bar inside the Westin (Inn at the Ballpark) buzzes on game days. 

Build it well and they will come.

Serve alcohol and they will come.😉

[samagon]

4 hours ago, LosFeliz said:

Funny, but the places that were torn down on Texas always had crowds despite not being great. And the bar inside the Westin (Inn at the Ballpark) buzzes on game days. 

Build it well and they will come.

interestingly, I had written another bit that I erased before hitting submit.

if you've ever been to wrigley field, you know it's in a dense urban environment, and it feels like it. that strip of bars on Texas helped it feel just a little bit like an actual dense urban environment, giving a hint of an electricity that you get at wrigley field.

they might not have looked like much, but they were more atmosphere than we currently have, and probably better than anything that might be built, certainly better than another mega hotel.

[X.R.]

I don't think the Astros are looking at the Cardinals and others more established baseball "villages" when it comes to the buildings. I'm sure, 100% would bet money, that they are looking at Texas Live and how that is structured. Texas Live is like 150k (maybe a bit less) retail space that basically looks like a casino sports book but with individual spaces within that are leased out to various food/drink vendors. Texas Live is heavily tied to the hotels they've built there along with stand alone restuarants to service people who don't want the party/drink vibes that comes with the Texas Live building. I say party/drink vibe because that place is, at times, the biggest producer of DUI's in the state. 

If you watched this MLB postseason, Texas Live was that indoor, 2 floor space with the wall of TVs. So, think less urban and organic looking growth (the stuff people have been citing as potential influences), and more Hotel/Conference with a lot of parking Jerry Jones-style type development.

Edit: I personally enjoyed my two trips to Texas Live this year, but Camden Yards it is not.

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by X.R.

[hbg.50]

17 minutes ago, X.R. said:

I don't think the Astros are looking at the Cardinals and others more established baseball "villages" when it comes to the buildings. I'm sure, 100% would bet money, that they are looking at Texas Live and how that is structured. Texas Live is like 150k (maybe a bit less) retail space that basically looks like a casino sports book but with individual spaces within that are leased out to various food/drink vendors. Texas Live is heavily tied to the hotels they've built there along with stand alone restuarants to service people who don't want the party/drink vibes that comes with the Texas Live building. I say party/drink vibe because that place is, at times, the biggest producer of DUI's in the state. 

If you watched this MLB postseason, Texas Live was that indoor, 2 floor space with the wall of TVs. So, think less urban and organic looking growth (the stuff people have been citing as potential influences), and more Hotel/Conference with a lot of parking Jerry Jones-style type development.

Edit: I personally enjoyed my two trips to Texas Live this year, but Camden Yards it is not.

 

If the Astros are looking at Texas Live or the Battery, then that’s their problem.  Why look at a suburban development for an urban stadium?  That makes zero sense.

[jhjones74]

9 hours ago, steve1363 said:

If the Astros are looking at Texas Live or the Battery, then that’s their problem.  Why look at a suburban development for an urban stadium?  That makes zero sense.

Nailed it here. The answer is probably because this is the environment most Houstonians feel most comfortable, as another user previously pointed out. I lived in Midtown Atlanta when the Braves stadium moved from downtown to the suburbs. We can be thankful that this isn’t on the table likely due to Houston not having a real directional bias to suburban wealth, but ultimately that decision was made in Atlanta paying attention to the demographics of who was going to and spending money at Braves game. A bet on catering to a demographic that’s currently in the minority is not one I’m sure I’d want to make in Houston right now

[j_cuevas713]

The Astros aren't looking at those developments without considering the environment they play in. They're also looking at St Louis which is more urban. The idea is to get a feel for what to incorporate in to the development. I expect it to blend well with MMP. I just expected a much larger plan to be unveiled. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by j_cuevas713

[kennyc05]

3 hours ago, j_cuevas713 said:

The Astros aren't looking at those developments without considering the environment they play in. They're also looking at St Louis which is more urban. The idea is to get a feel for what to incorporate in to the development. I expect it to blend well with MMP. I just expected a much larger plan to be unveiled. 

Again with Hines behind it it should be fine.

[X.R.]

I've been thinking about this development for a while, basically every time I went to the stadium this year and walked through those parking lots, and listened to all the interviews, and want to get my thoughts out.

I think y'all are right about them looking at all those other development, the Astros are very diligent both on the field and off. Plus, Astros management and Crane are extremely great at making money (breaking MLB retail records and then using a bit of that money to improve the stadium every year to put in the ticket emails) so I think we are in good hands regarding the development getting done sooner than later. There's just too much money on the table and they know it.

But its because he's so good at making money that he will default to the best way to make money while doing it in the most-cost efficient manner. None of this sounds like an overly urban development: "The development would include a high-end, four-star hotel. It would also include restaurants and an indoor tailgating area to be open year-round. In addition, it would include a walkway above the street, which would take people directly to the club level of the ballpark. "

He mentioned the indoor tailgating area in two different interviews, and to me that sounds like leasable, rentable stalls ala Texas Live. Crane loves money, I don't blame him for that, and making one of the lots the "indoor tailgate" way maximizes the return on capital the fastest while providing the average sports bro with what they love: food, alcohol, and giant TVs in a place that doesn't make them sweat. Cheaper initial investment for the Astros, they just build a few different shells in the interior, provide the TVs, get a couple anchor bars/food places, bing bang boom. Reserve an area for fans tailgates, maybe (probably not).  I think at the end of the day its going to be much better than what was there ala Home Plate Bar and tha other place, but I'm imagining more Biggio's/Texas Live/Golen Nugget (in Lake Charles) Sports Book and less a cool walkable experience. Tbh, I hope I'm wrong, because I love the areas around Wrigley, Fenway, Yankee Stadium, and Camden Yards. Yall are making me think theres hope for a cool experience.

[HoustonMidtown]

Astros unveil planned entertainment district outside MMP

https://www.mlb.com/news/astros-entertainment-district-minute-maid-park

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by HoustonMidtown

[CREguy13]

On 11/2/2023 at 3:35 PM, goofy said:

From x:

https://x.com/iammarybenton/status/1720151483025362995?s=42&t=fsBYoidunkKl3Yr6apX4AQ

 

at the state of downtown address, the astros showed off renderings of the mixed use plans and said “soon”

Just an observation, but I find it interesting the new garage planned on West side of ADLA shows a skybridge to the large parking lot that butts up against the Marriot Marquis... I forgot who owns that lot, but would be really neat if Crane had his eyes on that huge parking lot for future expansions.  

Hopefully Hines is consulting a masterplan beyond just this initial 2-acre phase.  Bummer construction isn't expected until after next season at the earliest, but hoping final renderings get released somewhat soon now that more detailed plans are public.