Downtown Houston 2025 Master Plan

[KinkaidAlum]

That's why I hate the "community" liberals have created. It usually means a small minority are going to try and bully the masses into what they tell you is good for you. This new concept of community is just an erosion of personal freedom.

 

Yes, because liberals have so much power in Texas I can see how you'd feel threatened. 

[Montrose1100]

If they think it's worth so much they can buy it. That's the only way to prove how much you value something.

This is crazy to me. Do you think the UNESCO world heritage sites are pointless?

I certainly don't have enough money to buy the Mona Lisa but I do value it. This comment is crazy!! The only way to prove you value something is to buy it. Wow. Would you say that about your spouse? Children? Friends? Family?

Does this go for the same as the animals? Let them be hunted to extinction, however if someone could afford to buy and raise them it shouldn't matter. Unless you want future generations to only look at them from the Internet.

Some things are more important than money my friend.

[Ross]

This is crazy to me. Do you think the UNESCO world heritage sites are pointless?

I certainly don't have enough money to buy the Mona Lisa but I do value it. This comment is crazy!! The only way to prove you value something is to buy it. Wow. Would you say that about your spouse? Children? Friends? Family?

Does this go for the same as the animals? Let them be hunted to extinction, however if someone could afford to buy and raise them it shouldn't matter. Unless you want future generations to only look at them from the Internet.

Some things are more important than money my friend.

Yet more irrelevant strawmen. UNESCO heritage sites are generally owned by governments, and unlikely to be changed. The Mona Lisa is owned by a government entity. A private owner would be fully justified in burning the Mona Lisa if he so desired. Animal hunting is controlled by the government for native species, at least in Texas, exotics are the property of the land owners, and can be hunted at will, even to local extinction.

 

Can you explain why you think the owner of the Pennzoil tower has any obligation to you to preserve the building in it's current configuration?

 

[Montrose1100]

Yet more irrelevant strawmen. UNESCO heritage sites are generally owned by governments, and unlikely to be changed. The Mona Lisa is owned by a government entity. A private owner would be fully justified in burning the Mona Lisa if he so desired. Animal hunting is controlled by the government for native species, at least in Texas, exotics are the property of the land owners, and can be hunted at will, even to local extinction.

Can you explain why you think the owner of the Pennzoil tower has any obligation to you to preserve the building in it's current configuration?

I will admit I was being a bit dramatic but that statement was completely absurd.

Of course there is an obligation to preserve the building as is, it's one of Johnson's masterpieces and put Houston on the architectural map. It was also the dawn of the postmodern style breaking away from the traditional modern and international styles that were at the time popular. Altering the façade, design, or shape in anyway is changing history. I would say it is comparable to changing the history textbooks in the classrooms, And then the students accepting that as what really happened.

Philip Johnson himself hoped to leave behind a legacy, that people would look back at his Designs the same way that he looks back at cathedrals in France.

So forgive me if I'm a little bit passionate about the subject, But I guess it's not an obligation just to me but to the whole world.

[Ross]

What makes Johnson's work more important than, say, the work done by the  guy who designs Bucee's?

[Slick Vik]

What makes Johnson's work more important than, say, the work done by the guy who designs Bucee's?

Wow

[Montrose1100]

What makes Johnson's work more important than, say, the work done by the guy who designs Bucee's?

You must be joking... I will take the high road and just tell you to have a wonderful evening.

[Marcus Allen]

Obviously, all Ross is doing is ruffling feathers. I can not and neither should anyone else, take this bozo seriously. Back to topic, I would be sad if the facade was changed on those buildings. I am hoping it's like others have said; a renovation of the interior or a revamping to more modern yet similar looking materials for the exterior. I understand the market drives productivity, but I am also constantly surprised at Htown's willingness to readily replace locales which are deemed obsolete. Maybe the average Houstonian wouldn't care if PP was replaced, but architectural buffs would. Hey, I am still mourning the possible demolition of the Astrodome, although I know it's outdated. Maybe I am just sentimental. Regardless, we all are entitled to our opinions of course, I just find it annoying that someone would come onto An Architectural Forum, and down play the importance of any structure's impact on the surrounding community. That is just asinine.

[fatesdisastr]

Altering the façade, design, or shape in anyway is changing history. I would say it is comparable to changing the history textbooks in the classrooms, And then the students accepting that as what really happened.

 

I agree with you Montrose1100 on wanting to keep the facade the same. Not to get off topic but your argument about history books isn't very good. History books in public schools do not reflect real history. How we still hail Christopher Columbus as a national hero who deserves his own day is beyond me. For a man who raped, pillaged and robbed natives, our children really get the cheery history about a heinous individual. For that, history books should be changed to show multiple views because they only reflect the view of the individual or groups of individuals that write and edit them.

 

As much as I love Pennzoil Place I don't feel it's owner is obligated to keep the exterior the same. Yes it is his property and those who wish it to stay the same can voice their content in hopes that they will change their minds. However since it isn't a historic landmark they can do whatever they wish to it. I doubt the facade will change, it was just a mere observation I was voicing about the image.

[Nate99]

 

That's pretty fun to look at.

 

Looks like it is missing the residential Market Square arrea tower though.

 

[Montrose1100]

I agree with you Montrose1100 on wanting to keep the facade the same. Not to get off topic but your argument about history books isn't very good. History books in public schools do not reflect real history. How we still hail Christopher Columbus as a national hero who deserves his own day is beyond me. For a man who raped, pillaged and robbed natives, our children really get the cheery history about a heinous individual. For that, history books should be changed to show multiple views because they only reflect the view of the individual or groups of individuals that write and edit them.

As much as I love Pennzoil Place I don't feel it's owner is obligated to keep the exterior the same. Yes it is his property and those who wish it to stay the same can voice their content in hopes that they will change their minds. However since it isn't a historic landmark they can do whatever they wish to it. I doubt the facade will change, it was just a mere observation I was voicing about the image.

Well I was talking about how unrealistic they have become, and they still are continuing to get worse.

[Slick Vik]

I agree with you Montrose1100 on wanting to keep the facade the same. Not to get off topic but your argument about history books isn't very good. History books in public schools do not reflect real history. How we still hail Christopher Columbus as a national hero who deserves his own day is beyond me. For a man who raped, pillaged and robbed natives, our children really get the cheery history about a heinous individual. For that, history books should be changed to show multiple views because they only reflect the view of the individual or groups of individuals that write and edit them.

 

As much as I love Pennzoil Place I don't feel it's owner is obligated to keep the exterior the same. Yes it is his property and those who wish it to stay the same can voice their content in hopes that they will change their minds. However since it isn't a historic landmark they can do whatever they wish to it. I doubt the facade will change, it was just a mere observation I was voicing about the image.

 

It's pretty interesting when you compare texas history in texas and texas history in Mexico. In Mexico they say Sam Houston is a traitor because he basically left the guys at the Alamo out to die, who were waiting for him. Here he has his own statue and is a hero.

[H-Town Man]

Sure and such buildings are generally designated as national landmarks. Seems like a stretch to me to put this building at that level.

 

It's one of the most architecturally significant American skyscrapers of the late 20th century. Ada Louise Huxtable, architecture critic for the NY Times, said at the time that it had the biggest impact on a city's skyline since the Empire State Building was built. It shows up in most architecture textbooks that show the history of skyscrapers. It is widely regarded as the building that "broke the rectangular box," i.e. put an end to the era of simple rectangular prism skyscrapers, and ushered in the era of "sky-sculpture" towers.

[shasta]

That's pretty fun to look at.

 

Looks like it is missing the residential Market Square arrea tower though.

 

 

You are correct, we don't have enough information on that one yet.

[H-Town Man]

So, is your argument that if the community, whoever that is, decides the building is worth more to them than to the owner, the owner ought to bow to the desires of the community without compensation?

 

This has already been decided. In the late 70's, a developer wanted to build an office tower literally through the roof of Grand Central Station in New York, and effectively turn the grand waiting hall into the elevator lobby of his tower. There was a public outcry, and the city passed a landmark law preserving the structure as is. The developer whined that they couldn't stop his development without compensating him monetarily. The case went to the Supreme Court, which ruled in the city's favor.

 

Hence, this is settled case law with Supreme Court precedent. The question then is not whether we as a city could potentially stop any alteration to the building, but why we would waste time arguing about whether we have the right to or not.

 

The proposal:

 

 

As it looks today:

 

[Guest Jackwood]

So basically, Grand Central Station is exactly the same as Buc-ee's.

 

 

 

 =

Edited September 9, 2013 by Jackwood

[ArchFan]

"So basically, Grand Central Station is exactly the same as Buc-ee's."

 

Not sure if he meant that.   However, I wonder if the attitude is like this:  GCS is (nowadays, at least) an appendage of evil big gubberment.  Buc-ee's is a Texas-proud private enterprise, therefore their stores are superior in every way.

 

I'm exaggerating for effect, of course.  And I like Buc-ee's as well as GCS.  Just in different ways.  

 

I just think that, even as a nation of free individuals dedicated to honoring property rights, we still retain the right to try to convince our neighbors to cooperate in such a way that we retain a few things of value for future generations.  

[H-Town Man]

 

"So basically, Grand Central Station is exactly the same as Buc-ee's."

 

Not sure if he meant that.   However, I wonder if the attitude is like this:  GCS is (nowadays, at least) an appendage of evil big gubberment.  Buc-ee's is a Texas-proud private enterprise, therefore their stores are superior in every way.

 

I'm exaggerating for effect, of course.  And I like Buc-ee's as well as GCS.  Just in different ways.  

 

I just think that, even as a nation of free individuals dedicated to honoring property rights, we still retain the right to try to convince our neighbors to cooperate in such a way that we retain a few things of value for future generations.  

 

 

Not sure how carefully you read my post, but I don't think you understood what I said.

Edited September 10, 2013 by H-Town Man

[Ross]

Johnson designed a few great buildings, and a few that do nothing for me, like the AT&T building, One Detroit, and the Crystal Cathedral. But I also think that on another scale, the Bucee's designers have done an outstanding job of taking a ubiquitous structure of our lives and making it better and more useful. I am a firm believer that function is more important than form, and while it's nice to have a great form, it shouldn't override function. That's why so many buildings in the Middle East are a pain to live or work in - the outside looks great, but the possible floor plans are not good at all.

 

As for Penn Central V NYC, in the end, it looks like Penn Central got what they wanted, which was for someone else to take over running GCS.

[Texasota]

Except does the building really have anything to do with Bucees success? Their strengths seems to be their selection of snacks, their reliable cleanliness, and, ultimately, their branding. The *only* way in which the actual building matters is in the extent to which they keep it clean.

[H-Town Man]

Johnson designed a few great buildings, and a few that do nothing for me, like the AT&T building, One Detroit, and the Crystal Cathedral. But I also think that on another scale, the Bucee's designers have done an outstanding job of taking a ubiquitous structure of our lives and making it better and more useful. I am a firm believer that function is more important than form, and while it's nice to have a great form, it shouldn't override function. That's why so many buildings in the Middle East are a pain to live or work in - the outside looks great, but the possible floor plans are not good at all.

 

As for Penn Central V NYC, in the end, it looks like Penn Central got what they wanted, which was for someone else to take over running GCS.

 

If function is your main criterion, then you could say that a Porta-Potty is great architecture.

 

Pennzoil Place is not personally my favorite building in Houston (although it's up there), nor my favorite Johnson building. But looked at impersonally, it has done more than any other building to put Houston on the map as a city where cutting edge architecture happens. In the years following that building's construction, architects were looking at us the way nowadays they look at Dubai and Hong Kong, and the way they looked at Chicago in the late 60's. For a time, the architectural world said, "What is Houston going to do next?"

[Triton]

3 pages of nothing. Wow.... hope we get something soon!

[Guest Jackwood]

What do you mean "nothing"? We have established beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Pennzoil building is to be redesigned to look like a Buc-ee's. And that it is none of our business. 

[wernicke]

One small teaser, 3 pages of arguing about the significance of Philip Johnson...

[Ross]

What do you mean "nothing"? We have established beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Pennzoil building is to be redesigned to look like a Buc-ee's. And that it is none of our business.

A Bucees inside the loop would be great. One downtown even better!

[Montrose1100]

One small teaser, 3 pages of arguing about the significance of Philip Johnson...

On an architecture forum too! The HORROR!

[H-Town Man]

On an architecture forum too! The HORROR!

 

Beat me to it.

[towerjunkie]

One of the pennzoil buildings looks slightly taller. Hmmm... that or I forgot about perspective. Most likely the second part. 

[cloud713]

We should now.. Full renderings and official height. Also the new 35 story residential tower to the west of market square.

[ClutchCity]

Maybe they are selling it? It says, "The Downtown Houston Icon Available 01/01/2014" in this weeks HBJ.