Downtown Night Life Market

[RedScare]

Chronicle article on the new parking plan.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/3325651

I've never paid a dime to park downtown afterhours, but admittedly, I know my way around the area. The lots closest to the action charge $15-20, but the streets are free. My first thought was that this was almost price gouging, but the lots are always full. If people are willing to pay that much just so they won't have to walk an extra block (300 feet), then that's just market pricing. Interesting concept, that one will not walk two blocks to get to a nightclub where they dance for three hours. Kind of like valet parking and escaltors at the fitness club, isn't it.

[ssullivan]

Great idea for those who don't want to find free on-street parking. The Angelika has done this forever with the underground theater district garage. Let's hope this pays off for the businesses doing it; I'm sure their hope is that they will make up the cost of taking $5 off a customer's cover charge or food/drink tab with increased numbers of patrons. If it works, it could not only bring more people downtown on weekend evenings but also encourage additional businesses to participate.

[skwatra]

i always park for free as well. but many don't want to park in the street for safety reasons, and yes most are too lazy to search and have to walk.

[worldlyman]

How do we keep NoD...,er, downtown Houston's nightlife stable?

We have discussed the decline of Deep Ellum here to a small degree. Tampa's version of it called Ybor City is suffering the same fate with the almost the exact symptoms and cause. These were core nightlife areas i their towns.

http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=120271

As a former Tampa Bay resident, I'll say that whereas 1980s Deep Ellum's genesis was artsy, Ybor was always more of a yahoo 6th Street...but it had its share of fancy restaurants and trendy boutiques.

I remember when downtown Houston's nightlife exploded circa 1998-2001...it was tempered artificially, namely the Main Street Reconstructive Surgery. But post-2001, I'd been a San Diego resident save for eight months in Houston (from the Super Bowl to late July 2004). So I find it hard to gauge downtown H-town's nocturnal swing these days. But in Labor Day Weekend 2005, I sampled it on a Saturday...it was healthy enough but it didn't seem as mindblowing as 2000 or 2001. H-town Pavilions will certainly add extra measures of health when fully realized for sure.

So, how does downtown Houston's nocturnal entertainment scene keep its overall baseline vitality going? At least, can it keep its more "sophisticated" demographic rather than downgrading to the yahoos and gangbangers of nowaday Ybor City and Deep Ellum?

Deep Ellum and Ybor City are very much peripheral to their respective downtowns whereas Main St/Travis andtheir crosses are right in the heart. "Centro Ybor" was very much a Pavilions type of construct but it seems to be floundering now. And there is even a free trolley that goes from Ybor to the more "mature" Channelside entertainment district (it's interesting how they didn't mix-n-share the commerce and demographic).

So does geography play a part? Is the architectural context along with the adjacent resources like the Toyota Center, Houston Pavilions and Theater District too substantial to allow a devolution?

Edited March 12, 2006 by worldlyman

[dbigtex56]

Good questions.

I too have my doubts about how sustaiinable the downtown club district will be. That's the nature of nightclubs; a few daring people will find somewhere off the beaten track and create something unique. Then crowds follow them and the very quality that was initially appealling is lost.

There's an old saying: "Ever since that place became popular, no one goes there anymore." Oxymoronic but true. It's happened on the Richmond Strip, Shepherd Plaza, lower Westheimer, River Oaks Plaza. In the 60s and early 70s, the same fate befell Allen's Landing.

It will be interesting to see how places like Warehouse Live impact the social scene. Will the old Chinatown take over NoDo as 'the' party place?

[bachanon]

club patrons are fickle. if it's trendy and hip, expect it to have a short life. people who are hell-bent on seeing and being seen and who love the next big thing will tire easily of any new concept or location. why numbers is still around is a mystery to me. i have great affection for the place, as do others, maybe that's why. a club district is difficult to sustain without a constant stream of newcomers, say college students, tourists or conventions goers for instance.

[Guest danax]

The DT club scene is the double-edged sword. It's brought some people and businesses down there to help get things started but, if it ever turns into a hip-hop youngsta zone full of weekly violence, crime and general tomfoolery, the area will lose momentum quickly. Not trying to sound like Carrie Nation here but "partying" will always attract and include negative elements.

Other than places like 6th street with an ever-new flush of students, these places seem almost destined to die out sooner or later.

I'd like to see a sidewalk cafe zone DT.

[dbigtex56]

club patrons are fickle. if it's trendy and hip, expect it to have a short life. people who are hell-bent on seeing and being seen and who love the next big thing will tire easily of any new concept or location. why numbers is still around is a mystery to me.

I think you answered your own question. #'s was never about being exclusive or trendy. They allow the music and patrons to set the mood.

That business about decor, dress codes and doormen will be downtown's downfall.

[RedScare]

club patrons are fickle. if it's trendy and hip, expect it to have a short life. people who are hell-bent on seeing and being seen and who love the next big thing will tire easily of any new concept or location. why numbers is still around is a mystery to me. i have great affection for the place, as do others, maybe that's why. a club district is difficult to sustain without a constant stream of newcomers, say college students, tourists or conventions goers for instance.

Even those groups won't necessarily sustain a district. Dallas Alley was huge when it opened in the mid 80s, but the locals quickly tired of it, leaving it to the tourists. With only tourists to sustain it, DA went downhill fast. Downtown Dallas' nightlife renaissance is now not dependent on Dallas Alley, but on nearby districts, such as Victory or Uptown.

Houston Pavillions' best feature is that it is NOT in the club zone, but near it. Those who do not desire the dance clubs will have somewhere else to go downtown. The club zone itself will likely drop off, then re-emerge as a different type of scene. If the urban living trend continues, it could become popular for bars and live music. Because it is downtown, it will always have better security and less cruising options. These 2 items will keep it from going the Ellum or Ybor route.

[Double L]

The thing that brought these businesses there in the first place was the light rail. If the light rail plan sustains sucessfully Main Street will be a central transportation corridor geared towards pedestrians. Three things have to successfully sustain over the next 10-15 years to make it work: Light rail, downtown retail growth and inner loop population growth.

Edited March 13, 2006 by Double L

[bachanon]

The thing that brought these businesses there in the first place was the light rail. If the light rail plan sustains sucessfully Main Street will be a central transportation corridor geared towards pedestrians. Three things have to successfully sustain over the next 10-15 years to make it work: Light rail, downtown retail growth and inner loop population growth.

there was downtown revitalization going on before the light rail. there were speculators holding on to buildings before light rail. light rail enhanced the interest that was already afoot.

[713 To 214]

club patrons are fickle. if it's trendy and hip, expect it to have a short life. people who are hell-bent on seeing and being seen and who love the next big thing will tire easily of any new concept or location. why numbers is still around is a mystery to me. i have great affection for the place, as do others, maybe that's why. a club district is difficult to sustain without a constant stream of newcomers, say college students, tourists or conventions goers for instance.

Bingo.

[Subdude]

If anything, I'm surprised that downtown has been able to maintain a club scene as long as it has. At some point I expect it to become less trendy and people will move on. The influx of clubs has been great for downtown in helping restore old buildings, but I would rather have seen more residential and retail, which don't work well in a heavy bar environment. Maybe this will change when Houston Pavillions is completed.

[DJ V Lawrence]

club patrons are fickle. if it's trendy and hip, expect it to have a short life. people who are hell-bent on seeing and being seen and who love the next big thing will tire easily of any new concept or location. why numbers is still around is a mystery to me. i have great affection for the place, as do others, maybe that's why. a club district is difficult to sustain without a constant stream of newcomers, say college students, tourists or conventions goers for instance.

The downtown nightlife will survive if it doesn't just depend on nightclubs that close at 2am.

For example, if Main Street had more after-hours clubs, a Denny's and IHOP, 24-hour clothing retail, 24-hour coffee shops, and even a 24-hour bookstore or two, and all had views of the street via patios or windows, the area would have an extremely healthy nightlife that could last until sunrise.

The secret is having heavy pedestrian traffic ALL night on weekends and steady pedestrian traffic on weekdays. The nightclubs will REALLY benefit from that as well, and you'd probably see even more clubs open up on Main. Next, encourage new nightclubs that want to open downtown to open up within walking distance of the other nightclubs on Main. And third, encourage downtown residence to walk at night by giving them places to do that they may need (like a 24 hour supermarket in or by Houston Pavillions)

[Houston1stWordOnTheMoon]

Is it safe to walk around downtown at night? If not, that could be easily solved with increased police patrols on horse back-golf cart-patrol cars.

[The Great Hizzy!]

Is it safe to walk around downtown at night? If not, that could be easily solved with increased police patrols on horse back-golf cart-patrol cars.

Other than a spare homeless person who might not be as docile as the rest of the homeless, I can't think of much of anything that could be construed as "troubling" about walking around DT at night. There are a couple of places that might offer themselves up to being good places for someone to try to mug you at night (south of Toyota Center, for example, before you get to St. Joe's, or the shady block just north of Main Street Square) but I've never once thought of DT being anything but relatively safe.

[sevfiv]

i feel safe walking downtown at night - the most threatening occurrence are the drunks driving after leaving the bars/clubs...

[ToolMan]

A can name a few bars that will stay; however, they have been around for a while and not trendy:

Warrens, Brewry Tap, La Carafe, Market Square Bar & Grill

Newer bars that will proboably stay around because they are not trendy:

The Flying Saucer, 12 Spot, Dean's (maybe), CharBar

None of these bars charge cover either.

Bars to be closed at some point:

M Bar, Grasshopper, Suede, Mint, ect...

Notice that most of the less trendy bars are off Main St.

Edited March 14, 2006 by ToolMan

[Double L]

Downtown is currently the safest district in the city. We often have police consistently patrolling the area and they really come out at evening hours around Main st. during events.

We're just going to have to keep things moving downtown and not let the momentum slow down too much. The downtown development district, the Houston Pavillions, the expansion of the park on the eastside and the population influx to the inner loop will do their part to help the momentum.

Edited March 14, 2006 by Double L

[DJ V Lawrence]

Other than a spare homeless person who might not be as docile as the rest of the homeless, I can't think of much of anything that could be construed as "troubling" about walking around DT at night. There are a couple of places that might offer themselves up to being good places for someone to try to mug you at night (south of Toyota Center, for example, before you get to St. Joe's, or the shady block just north of Main Street Square) but I've never once thought of DT being anything but relatively safe.

If our Downtown, the heart of our city, is not considered safe to walk around 24 hours a day, it should be considered unexceptable, and something's wrong...

[skwatra]

why would it be unexceptable? obviously we don't want any crime, but downtown is going to have your rich, your homeless, and everything in between - there's bound to be some crime. i find walking around DT Houston safer at night then Chicago or NYC, as well as most cities i've been to internationally.

[DJ V Lawrence]

why would it be unexceptable? obviously we don't want any crime, but downtown is going to have your rich, your homeless, and everything in between - there's bound to be some crime. i find walking around DT Houston safer at night then Chicago or NYC, as well as most cities i've been to internationally.

Downtown will always have all financial backgrounds there, but how in the world is Houston going to have a consistant nightlife anywhere in the city if people are afraid of Houston at night? That may be one problem right there.

I don't consider NYC 100% safe by all means, but I did feel safe in Times Square when I went there a few years back. I think it was because the pedestrian traffic was enormous, and there was a strong security presence there. I also felt very safe in Houston during the Super Bowl Main Event festival, for the same reasons. Does downtown REALLY feel dangerous at night at all time, or is it considered safer where there's a huge crowd as opposed to empty streets? I would imagine a huge crowd would deter a criminal from having any witnesses as opposed to seeing a person walking alone on an empty downtown street...

[sevfiv]

good points about crowds versus no crowds, although i wouldn't really know.

i am mostly walking downtown when no one else is, but have never felt more unsafe than anywhere else

Edited March 14, 2006 by sevfiv

[skwatra]

by downtown NY, i was't thinking Times Square, but actually going to bars in say SoHo and walking back to the subway on some empty streets to a relatively empty station. i never feel safe doing that.

the same with houston (to an obviously smaller scale). if i'm on Main in the club district, i feel safe up to at least 3am. and actually i feel safe pretty much all the time anywhere around there, even when its empty. i know there's a chance something may happen (as you said, moreso when the streets are void), but that's part of that kind of life.

i don't think that's going to keep people from going out. look at the millions that (used to) go out to Bourbon St. many wouldn't consider that safe at any time, yet they kept going.

[The Great Hizzy!]

The point is, downtown Houston is very safe. Check police records concerning "crimes" committed in that zone. The problem is that people associate "the city (and that's pretty much any city)" with crime, so whether the notion of crime is true, it doesn't matter. The perception is there for some and that will keep them home.

Reminds me of the feature KHOU did a couple of years ago just after METRO Rail started running, and a reporter asked this guy who lived out in the 'burbs something like, "With all of the new attractions downtown and the events that going on there, would you mind visiting more often?"

And that guy's response was, "Too many people and they can be unruly. Plus, you have to worry about parking and whether or not somebody will try to rob you. I'll just stay out here and relax."

That's why a good number of people move to the suburbs. The perception of safety relative to the city.

[MidtownCoog]

Downtown is currently the safest district in the city.

True. But my co-workers from London get all freaked out by the aggressive pan-handlers.

They usally stay at the Magnolia and walk to Houton Center.

It's a shame I have to make excuses for the freaking bums. I tell them to be mean and ignore them, but it upsets their British sensibilities.

[Houstonian in Iraq]

The point is, downtown Houston is very safe. Check police records concerning "crimes" committed in that zone. The problem is that people associate "the city (and that's pretty much any city)" with crime, so whether the notion of crime is true, it doesn't matter. The perception is there for some and that will keep them home.

Reminds me of the feature KHOU did a couple of years ago just after METRO Rail started running, and a reporter asked this guy who lived out in the 'burbs something like, "With all of the new attractions downtown and the events that going on there, would you mind visiting more often?"

And that guy's response was, "Too many people and they can be unruly. Plus, you have to worry about parking and whether or not somebody will try to rob you. I'll just stay out here and relax."

That's why a good number of people move to the suburbs. The perception of safety relative to the city.

So true, people still have a misconception about downtown. Other people as do I do our part to get the word out about how downtown really is. I wish the city or one of these downtown organizations would do more to get the word out, not just to other cities but to the rest of Houston and it's suburbs.

Edited March 14, 2006 by Houstonian in Iraq

[MidtownCoog]

one of these downtown organizations

That's another problem. Too many "downtown organizations", each with their own agenda.

[DJ V Lawrence]

That's another problem. Too many "downtown organizations", each with their own agenda.

Never even thought about that until now. Unification needed.

[worldlyman]

The downtown nightlife will survive if it doesn't just depend on nightclubs that close at 2am.

For example, if Main Street had more after-hours clubs, a Denny's and IHOP, 24-hour clothing retail, 24-hour coffee shops, and even a 24-hour bookstore or two, and all had views of the street via patios or windows, the area would have an extremely healthy nightlife that could last until sunrise.

The secret is having heavy pedestrian traffic ALL night on weekends and steady pedestrian traffic on weekdays. The nightclubs will REALLY benefit from that as well, and you'd probably see even more clubs open up on Main. Next, encourage new nightclubs that want to open downtown to open up within walking distance of the other nightclubs on Main. And third, encourage downtown residence to walk at night by giving them places to do that they may need (like a 24 hour supermarket in or by Houston Pavillions)

In the Sunset Strip, it is pretty cool just to sit in the patio of Hollywood Hustler (eclectic BarnesNobles newstand with fun toys and novelties) with a java or two...and watch people go by. That's a good example of a late-night bookstore even if it's not a 24 hour place. There also some good late night diners there, one or two that are 24 hour.

But there was a cool diner in downtown Houston, Century Diner or something, open 24 hours on the weekends, that shuttered. (One factor I think was the construction.) Frank's Pizza is an invaluable late night eatery on the weekends. I just wish Mai's or Biba's Greek were on Main St. next to some of the clubs.

Kaveh Kaneh's closing makes me more than a little sad. And I don't know about those who remembered, but the no-stu-oh next to Dean's Credit Clothing was a joy of an off-beat coffeehouse to hang out in, a sort of contrast to the mostly trendy downtown experience. I remembered when I would get a coffee at no-tsu-oh, walk around the block (or two) and then return the mug! There was a true urban vibe to Main St. pre-rail on those Fridays and Saturdays. The rush of cars, heavy sidewalk traffic...it was so exhilarating.

The Main St. of today, when they close it off on Fridays and Saturdays, kinda brings a packaged feel sort of like 6th St. or the Ybor City of olde. But that's OK. The H-town Pavilions will certainly change the dynamic outside of Main.