Car Talk → 2022

[Specwriter]

Cimarron was actually a J-car.  Hard to believe in retrospect, but I remember reading that that was meant to be their response to the BMWs that were becoming popular at the time.  Instead it practically destroyed their reputation for decades.  The Chevette was utter junk.  I can't see the point in a RWD subcompact.  It's not like a Chevette driver would have been concerned about better handling!

 

At the time, mid-1970s a scaled down rear-wheel drive platform was just cheaper to build. Even when the Vega and Pinto hit the market in the very early '70s there were a few European makes with FWD such as Mini, Citroen, and Simca which the American manufacturers could have cribbed.

 

Of course GM did come out with FWD a few years later with the Citation, Phoenix, Omega, and Skylark quadruplets once they had "perfected" FWD cheapness.

 

The emoticon signifies that my first brand new car was a 1980 Pontiac Phoenix coupe. It was a handsome looking car, rode well, and was fairly quiet for a small unibody vehicle but I had to replace 2 CV joints in the five years I owned it and have it repainted because the original paint faded so badly after only three years. Also, the plastic pieces of the interior faded to about 50 shades of red within that time. Other than the CV joints the car really gave me no serious trouble but I could see how GM had cut corners in its manufacture. At the time my fiancée was driving a 1975 Toyota Corona with the 20R engine. It was by no means "fancy" but the difference in ruggedness and reliability was obvious.  

[mollusk]

Cimarron was actually a J-car.  Hard to believe in retrospect, but I remember reading that that was meant to be their response to the BMWs that were becoming popular at the time.  Instead it practically destroyed their reputation for decades.  The Chevette was utter junk.  I can't see the point in a RWD subcompact.  It's not like a Chevette driver would have been concerned about better handling!

 

I never could keep the GM body lettering system straight.

 

I'd refer to the Chevette as a complete POS except that doing so would be an insult to self respecting dookie everywhere.  When my Pinto died (actually, not that horrible a car in the context of the time), I was actually talked into buying one as my first new car with a window sticker, since our neighbor was a Chevy dealer.  Shift knobs lasted about a week or two at best, build quality was nasty, and the clutch was going out at just over 10K miles when I was rear ended by a guy in an early 70s Catalina, totaling that turkey.  GM was balking at the warranty claim on the clutch, claiming that for all they knew I could be using the car as a taxi.  Really - that was their actual excuse.  A two door Chevette taxi.  Riiiiiiiiight.  I haven't bought a GM product since.  

 

My only excuse for driving such awesomely bad cars was that I was a student at the time and just didn't have the bucks.  Unlike a guy I worked with who actually ordered a Cimarron so as to get it with hand crank windows.  

 

In the late 70s, front drive was practically unknown to US manufacturers except on the Toronado/Eldorado, even though by then it had started to be more prevalent among the Europeans - for example, the Fiat 128, VW Rabbit/Golf/Scirocco and Dasher/Passat, Ford Fiesta, etc.

[Subdude]

Anyone who was driving then can probably remember how those early Japanese models were just leap years ahead of the American brands in terms of fit and finish, although that said as a student I briefly had a 1978 or so Corona that threw a rod and left me stranded on the Katy Fwy. 

 

 

 

 

 

My only excuse for driving such awesomely bad cars was that I was a student at the time and just didn't have the bucks. 

 

Been there.  I shudder to think..

 

 

 

[mollusk]

The early Japanese cars were absolutely way ahead in terms of fit and finish, and for the most part reliability as well.  Most of them drove pretty well, too - early Civics in particular were an absolute blast to drive.  The early Japanese cars did appear to very much have a design life, though; it seems that once things started to break on them, everything would go south in short order.

 

OTOH, the early Japanese cars also used some of the thinnest materials available.  My folks had a Datsun B210; we had bathroom towels that were thicker than the "carpet."  And who can forget the cheezy vinyl on the driveline hump and in the back of the original 240Z, in all its Chairman Mao's jacket quilted glory.

[mkultra25]

The Chevette was utter junk.  I can't see the point in a RWD subcompact.  It's not like a Chevette driver would have been concerned about better handling!

 

There are exceptions to every rule. 

 

[JLWM8609]

Cimarron was actually a J-car.  Hard to believe in retrospect, but I remember reading that that was meant to be their response to the BMWs that were becoming popular at the time.  Instead it practically destroyed their reputation for decades.  The Chevette was utter junk.  I can't see the point in a RWD subcompact.  It's not like a Chevette driver would have been concerned about better handling!

 

The Cimarron was Cadillac's response to the BMW 3 series, the Mercedes-Benz W123 (since the W201 190E was still a year or two away when the Cimarron came out in late 81), and Audi. You'd think they would've learned what happens when you barely tart up a lower car to become a luxury car from Ford and their Lincoln Versailles, which was a barely disguised Ford Granada/Mercury Monarch.

 

The 80s weren't a good decade for Cadillac. Besides the Cimarron, there was also the V8-6-4 cylinder deactivation system, the diesel engines (which pretty much had their problems sorted out by the mid 80s, but their past reputation had already done its damage), the FWD 1985 DeVille and Fleetwood, and the HT-4100 engine.

[Subdude]

The Cimarron was Cadillac's response to the BMW 3 series, the Mercedes-Benz W123 (since the W201 190E was still a year or two away when the Cimarron came out in late 81), and Audi. You'd think they would've learned what happens when you barely tart up a lower car to become a luxury car from Ford and their Lincoln Versailles, which was a barely disguised Ford Granada/Mercury Monarch.

 

The 80s weren't a good decade for Cadillac. Besides the Cimarron, there was also the V8-6-4 cylinder deactivation system, the diesel engines (which pretty much had their problems sorted out by the mid 80s, but their past reputation had already done its damage), the FWD 1985 DeVille and Fleetwood, and the HT-4100 engine.

 

Interestingly enough, the Granada/Monarch/Versailles were originally designed as replacements for the Ford Maverick/Mercury Comet.  They were upgraded to semi-luxury compacts relatively late in development.  The original Granada advertising pitched it as a sort of Mercedes-Benz alternative.  Check out this ad, which is basically repeating "Granada..Mercedes..Granada..Mercedes."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owYcpe6vxc0

[Purpledevil]

There are exceptions to every rule.

Well damn, mkultra...that's quite possibly the funniest thing I've ever seen.

Nicely done.

Has anyone noticed the "Oilermobile" on West 19th? I just saw it last night sitting on the side of the street between Beall and Durham. Completely decked out in Columbia blue and white with Oiler helmets on the doors. I was driving and didn't have time to snap a pic. It's a 1979 Dodge truck, and it's pretty darn cool to see it, regardless of what you think of the team.

[mollusk]

The Cimarron was Cadillac's response to the BMW 3 series, the Mercedes-Benz W123 (since the W201 190E was still a year or two away when the Cimarron came out in late 81), and Audi. You'd think they would've learned what happens when you barely tart up a lower car to become a luxury car from Ford and their Lincoln Versailles, which was a barely disguised Ford Granada/Mercury Monarch.

 

The 80s weren't a good decade for Cadillac. Besides the Cimarron, there was also the V8-6-4 cylinder deactivation system, the diesel engines (which pretty much had their problems sorted out by the mid 80s, but their past reputation had already done its damage), the FWD 1985 DeVille and Fleetwood, and the HT-4100 engine.

 

The 80s weren't a good decade for GM as a whole.  Under the Roger Smith regime, pretty much everything GM touched turned to a smoldering heap of wreckage.  Even the 80s Corvettes were nasty.

 

In Dan Niel's 50 Worst Cars of All Time collection, he has this to say about the Cimarron:

 

"Everything that was wrong, venal, lazy and mendacious about GM in the 1980s was crystallized in this flagrant insult to the good name and fine customers of Cadillac."

[Ross]

Interestingly enough, the Granada/Monarch/Versailles were originally designed as replacements for the Ford Maverick/Mercury Comet.  They were upgraded to semi-luxury compacts relatively late in development.  The original Granada advertising pitched it as a sort of Mercedes-Benz alternative.  Check out this ad, which is basically repeating "Granada..Mercedes..Granada..Mercedes."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owYcpe6vxc0

 

Those were some of the most unintentionally funny ads of the time. "Hey, it looks just like a Mercedes, but pay no attention to the underpinnings". I laughed every time I saw one of those ads on TV, or one of the print ads. Here's a page with a few of them http://www.classiccarstodayonline.com/2012/06/13/the-1975-1980-ford-granada-had-a-simple-and-effective-ad-campaign-copying-the-cars-you-really-want/

[mkultra25]

Well damn, mkultra...that's quite possibly the funniest thing I've ever seen.

Nicely done.

 

Didn't realize there was a video when I posted the pic. It's even better. Anyone who'd build something like this without tubbing the rear end is sporting a colossal set of cojones. 

 

[mollusk]

Didn't realize there was a video when I posted the pic. It's even better. Anyone who'd build something like this without tubbing the rear end is sporting a colossal set of cojones. 

 

 

mkultra speaks the truth.

[Subdude]

The 80s weren't a good decade for GM as a whole.  Under the Roger Smith regime, pretty much everything GM touched turned to a smoldering heap of wreckage.  Even the 80s Corvettes were nasty.

 

In Dan Niel's 50 Worst Cars of All Time collection, he has this to say about the Cimarron:

 

"Everything that was wrong, venal, lazy and mendacious about GM in the 1980s was crystallized in this flagrant insult to the good name and fine customers of Cadillac."

 

I just finished re-reading an old book about the auto industry in the 1980s (Comeback: The Fall and Rise of the American Auto Industry by Paul Ingrassia).  It was mainly about GM digging itself into a ditch.  As you can tell by the title, the pitch was that GM and Chrysler had learned from their mistakes and were on the verge of a big comeback in the 1990s.  Obviously the author way jumped the gun on that conclusion.  

[Specwriter]

I just finished re-reading an old book about the auto industry in the 1980s (Comeback: The Fall and Rise of the American Auto Industry by Paul Ingrassia).  It was mainly about GM digging itself into a ditch.  As you can tell by the title, the pitch was that GM and Chrysler had learned from their mistakes and were on the verge of a big comeback in the 1990s.  Obviously the author way jumped the gun on that conclusion.  

 

Ingrassia may be partially correct. GM's products improved but they way it did business (marketing, labor relations, customer service) did not. They bought SAAB and killed it (murder by incompetence - not understanding the car or its traditional customers); let Saturn wither on the vine when it had been, and could have continued to be, an alternative to lower priced imports; and scuttled two of the linchpins of its heritage: Oldsmobile and Pontiac.

[Subdude]

Ingrassia may be partially correct. GM's products improved but they way it did business (marketing, labor relations, customer service) did not. They bought SAAB and killed it (murder by incompetence - not understanding the car or its traditional customers); let Saturn wither on the vine when it had been, and could have continued to be, an alternative to lower priced imports; and scuttled two of the linchpins of its heritage: Oldsmobile and Pontiac.

 

I think getting rid of their excess brands was one of the smartest things that GM did.  Except for Oldsmobile, too bad they had to wait for bankruptcy to do it.  All those superfluous brands created a big overhead in marketing and manufacturing costs that simply wasn't supportable given their market share.  Saturn was known for great customer service but failed because the cars weren't good and there was no marketing segment reason for them to exist (turns out not many people wanted plastic cars).  Likewise, even if they had been great cars Olds and Pontiac didn't have any particular reason to exist.  Interestingly, Buick was meant to have been killed off as well until they recognized how well the brand was perceived in China.  As for Saab, looks like the successor owner may be forced into bankruptcy.  

[HoustonMidtown]

2015 Dodge Charger Hellcat  - 707 hp !!

 

 

[mollusk]

I think getting rid of their excess brands was one of the smartest things that GM did.  

 

Alfred P. Sloan's original idea was having a "brand for every purse" during a time when a given brand had one model, maybe two, and perhaps two or three trim levels for each.  For example, from at least the '30s into the '60s, Buick had two different sizes and two different engines, thus four models (at one time the Special, later the cheesiest model, was the small body with the big engine - and thus the hot ticket).  

 

The creep started in the 60s, but before Roger Smith the different brands at least had different engines and different engineering - so a Pontiac wasn't really a Chevy with plastic junk on the bottom as it ended up.  Eventually, it got to where the difference between a Citation and a Cimarron was about $5 K and the store where you bought it - and even the Cimarron did not rise to the quality of a Malibu of 10 years earlier (side note - Michael Moore had it right with Roger and Me).  And once upon a time, dealerships had one brand, at most two in cities (see Pontiac/GMC), or maybe three in smaller places (Buick/Olds/Caddy).  Mopar had Chrysler/Plymouth, with no overlap between the cheesiest Chrysler and the nicest Plymouth; Dodge was down the street - and there was no doubt what was a Lincoln, what was a Mercury, and what was a Ford.  Now, the mega dealers sell every dang thing under the sun.

 

As per* my fingers and toes count from the Car and Driver New Cars for 2015 issue, Chevrolet alone has 18 models now.

 

So in reality, ditching a couple brands is really no different than what taking out the overlap in model lines among brands would have been - except the Buick dealer wouldn't have a cheap car unless it was an Opel.

 

 

 

* sorry, Monarch, I resisted as long as I could.    

[Subdude]

2015 Dodge Charger Hellcat  - 707 hp !!

 

DG015_063CH_charger_hell_side-sm.jpg

 

DG015_073CH_CharherHellcat-sm.jpg

 

Will this be sold to the public, or is it just for racing use?

[HoustonMidtown]

Will this be sold to the public, or is it just for racing use?

 

Yes - it's available to the public - they have the 2-door version Challenger Hellcat also...

[JLWM8609]

That Hellcat is something else. If I had unlimited funds, I'd probably do something crazy like drop a Hellcat drivetrain into a Chrysler 300 made to look like a base model and have a helluva sleeper.

[HoustonMidtown]

That Hellcat is something else. If I had unlimited funds, I'd probably do something crazy like drop a Hellcat drivetrain into a Chrysler 300 made to look like a base model and have a helluva sleeper.

I have never driven the Charger or Challenger - from what I read, they are great in a straight line but can't hardly turn a corner - I doubt there would be any test drives available but I sure would like to drive one....

[JLWM8609]

I have never driven the Charger or Challenger - from what I read, they are great in a straight line but can't hardly turn a corner - I doubt there would be any test drives available but I sure would like to drive one....

 

They ought to be able to corner well. They share their underpinnings with the Mercedes-Benz W211 (03-09 E-class) and W220 (00-06 S-class)

[mkultra25]

They ought to be able to corner well. They share their underpinnings with the Mercedes-Benz W211 (03-09 E-class) and W220 (00-06 S-class)

 

Interesting. I knew Chrysler had benefited from some parts-sharing back when the parent company was still DaimlerChrysler, but didn't know about this specifically. I assume by "underpinnings" you're talking about suspension components or subassemblies, and not the chassis itself?  

 

I'd think any handling shortcomings would be the result of weight distribution issues more than the suspension; the F/R balance of the 2013 Challenger was roughly 55/45 with the big 392 Hemi, and is listed as 52/48 for the 2014 model, but that number was with the V-6, so not sure that it's significantly different than the 2013 once a V-8 is factored in. 

[JLWM8609]

Interesting. I knew Chrysler had benefited from some parts-sharing back when the parent company was still DaimlerChrysler, but didn't know about this specifically. I assume by "underpinnings" you're talking about suspension components or subassemblies, and not the chassis itself?  

 

Yes. The control arm front suspension comes from the W220. The 5 link rear suspension, the firewall, the floorpan, differential, and ESP system all come from the W211.

[mollusk]

Interesting. I knew Chrysler had benefited from some parts-sharing back when the parent company was still DaimlerChrysler, but didn't know about this specifically. I assume by "underpinnings" you're talking about suspension components or subassemblies, and not the chassis itself?  

 

I'd think any handling shortcomings would be the result of weight distribution issues more than the suspension; the F/R balance of the 2013 Challenger was roughly 55/45 with the big 392 Hemi, and is listed as 52/48 for the 2014 model, but that number was with the V-6, so not sure that it's significantly different than the 2013 once a V-8 is factored in. 

 

 

Yes. The control arm front suspension comes from the W220. The 5 link rear suspension, the firewall, the floorpan, differential, and ESP system all come from the W211.

 

Incidentally, since these are unit body cars (no separate chassis), the firewall and floorpan essentially are the chassis.

[Subdude]

2015 S-Class coupe, for the independently wealthy among you.  I read that it has optional crystal headlights.

 

[HoustonMidtown]

2015 S-Class coupe, for the independently wealthy among you.  I read that it has optional crystal headlights.

 

 

Simply beautiful......

[sevfiv]

2015 S-Class coupe, for the independently wealthy among you.  I read that it has optional crystal headlights.

 

Gah..

 

"For the customer who might feel as though this car doesn’t grab enough eyeballs, the brand offers an enhanced version of full-LED headlights that are accentuated by 47 cut-glass elements supplied by the Austrian company Swarovski. The lighting units house 30 crystals that serve as turn indicators, while the other 17 combine to make up the daytime running lights."

 

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2015-mercedes-benz-s-class-coupe-photos-and-info-news

[Subdude]

It even perfumes the air..

 

 

 

The Air-Balance package introduced on the S-Class sedan comes standard on the coupe, and can ionize the air out of the HVAC system or subtly pump in perfume.

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1402_2015_mercedes_benz_s_class_coupe_first_look/#ixzz3AqEqER00

 

[samagon]

That Hellcat is something else. If I had unlimited funds, I'd probably do something crazy like drop a Hellcat drivetrain into a Chrysler 300 made to look like a base model and have a helluva sleeper.

 

My crazy car would be an auction police package crown vic with the supercharged 5.4 out of the cobra. talk about a sleeper, people would look at it and assume it was just a cheap transportation box with a fun light on the a pillar, then zoooooooooooom!!! and eventually crash because the suspension is clapped out, but let's not talk about that part, obviously there's still some kinks to work out. Luckily I have time to work this stuff out cause I haven't reached unlimited funds yet.