GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[Jax]

I agree that there needs to be better continuity between areas of interest downtown. People don't like walking past 5 parking lots or 5 blocks of abandoned buildings to get from one destination to another. We were all hoping that the Pavilions wouldn't just be a success but that they would also encourage more development nearby (ie along main). I haven't seen much evidence of that yet, except I think I saw the ground level retail in that ugly parking garage at Walker being built out.

What ever happened to the American Apparel or the development that was supposed to go up next to Josephine's across from House of Blues?

[crunchtastic]

A place such as HP might encourage more development with the promise of addtional bodies in a the general area, but that development is likely just going to be another stand alone retail pod, or hotel. Proximity isn't the same thing as connectivity. So how do you go from one to the other? I don't see how without a permananet resident population, which is why I am underwhelmed with HP.

[roadrunner]

It was kind of hard to imagine this being a success based on the timing and the current economic environment.

[swtsig]

It was kind of hard to imagine this being a success based on the timing and the current economic environment.

and the fact that it's basically just a glorified outdoor mall. for the life of me i still can't figure out why they didn't put a significant amount of street level retail that actually faced the STREET.

3 blocks of downtown and this is what they decide upon??? it's a farce.

[lockmat]

and the fact that it's basically just a glorified outdoor mall.

Better than a normal mall, no? At least it's glorified, which is pretty good.

[TheNiche]

3 blocks of downtown and this is what they decide upon??? it's a farce.

...and you, as a citizen of Houston, paid to finance a significant fraction of this farce. Whose fault is that?

[DrLan34]

HP is not as big as a success due to the economic situation right now. i really think that is the main reason. if oil was at 140 a barrel this place would almost be filled. This would mean another place to party downtown other than the preston at main area. I think when the economy gets better this place will be a big success.

Residential would have been awesome but at least we have 3 major blocks taken up. So 3 surface lots taken up and they are not just office space. Now the other empty lots all around the exxon building can hopefully start to fill up with residential. so maybe not having residential on top of hp will allow those surface lots to be taken up. I'm already happy to see the YMCA moving forward.

I know once those wine bars open up I will be hanging out there more.

[Jax]

I was just at Guadalajara Del Centro. It was actually pretty busy. Walking through the empty parts of the Pavilions was kind of depressing but the places that were open were surprisingly busy at least.

[Houston19514]

HP is not as big as a success due to the economic situation right now. i really think that is the main reason. if oil was at 140 a barrel this place would almost be filled. This would mean another place to party downtown other than the preston at main area. I think when the economy gets better this place will be a big success.

Residential would have been awesome but at least we have 3 major blocks taken up. So 3 surface lots taken up and they are not just office space. Now the other empty lots all around the exxon building can hopefully start to fill up with residential. so maybe not having residential on top of hp will allow those surface lots to be taken up. I'm already happy to see the YMCA moving forward.

I know once those wine bars open up I will be hanging out there more.

Exactly. The complaints about the lack of connectivity are a little unfair. HP provides three blocks of connectivity to downtown. It is hardly fair to blame them for the remaining empty lots.

And, again, Denver Pavilions has been pretty darned successful in downtown Denver and it's retail is also mostly inwardly-facing, towards "interior" passageways. That will not be an issue, once it fills up with tenants (and once the remaining outwardly-facing spaces are filled).

[lockmat]

I was just at Guadalajara Del Centro. It was actually pretty busy. Walking through the empty parts of the Pavilions was kind of depressing but the places that were open were surprisingly busy at least.

I think that's the key.

With the exception of Lids (which I think heavily relies on bigger stores), if they're open, they'll come.

[InTheLoop]

I'm way too familiar w/Denver Pavillions - it may have been an initial success, but it is now very unimpressive.

Turnover was high even prior to the recession.

I thought then, and now, that it was disjointed with panhandlers just on the periphery at all times.

They also just lost Virgin Megastore with more vacancies to come. (All VMs are history now)

Locals I know have no civic pride in the rapidly aging facility, and "improvements" are unimpressive. It's a mutt.

Hope HouPav sees the devolution of the Denver Pavillions and learns how not to reinvigorate D'town.

(of course D'town/LoDo Denver makes D'town Hou look like an evening ghost town, so...doesn't bode well for HouPav IMHO.)

That would be true IMO irrespective of recessions.

[roadrunner]

I think if Houston's convention business downtown continues to grow, in the long run this will be fine. It's definitely not a tourist destination or anything (not really sure what is in this city), but it still will be a nice little nightlife complex to complement GRB/DG....similar to Bayou Place and the Theater District.

[totheskies]

Yeah I thought the HoustonPress article was way too presumptive.

We live in Houston, Texas... the land of no zoning, skyscrapers that can sprout out of literally nowhere... and we're gonna criticize HP for being disjointed from the activity centers of Downtown?? Give me a BREAK. Where's the criticism for those who decided to build the GRB and the Theater District on opposite ends of downtown? Where's the criticism for all of those people that decided to gut the grocery stores/retail from the 40s and 50s, rip up the streetcar lines, and literally "pave paradise"? Surely the awesome burden of connectivity for the Houston CBD does not fall entirely to one brave little development that decided to open in the midst of Recessionary vice. And yeah, it's not tunnel connected... God (or other deity of of your choice) forbid that we have some retail in this town that is exposed to the open air. Yeah, yeah I know... HP facing inward really sucks, I agree with that. But its nothing they can't fix with some aggressive signage (and more tennants, which hopefully will come).

We're just shy of 5 months into this thing... I'm by no means impressed with Houston Pavilions, but I am willing to give it the benefit of the doubt, and not compose it's epilogue and then seal the coffin door.

Edited March 6, 2009 by totheskies

[Daniepwils]

What ever happened to the American Apparel or the development that was supposed to go up next to Josephine's across from House of Blues?

That is dead I think. Also you are a block off. This was to go up at the corner of Main and Dallas (across from XXI and Macy's.

[musicman]

I was just at Guadalajara Del Centro. It was actually pretty busy. Walking through the empty parts of the Pavilions was kind of depressing but the places that were open were surprisingly busy at least.

how much was your bill?

[crunchtastic]

Is it the same Guadalajara as over on 59 at Kirby?

[musicman]

Is it the same Guadalajara as over on 59 at Kirby?

yep but foo foo'd out.

[Jax]

My enchilada was $11 and I had a beer. $15 in total or so...

[woolie]

Whoever suggested dismantling HP, then spreading outwards in a shockwave of radical deconstruction had a great idea. This city isn't salvageable, probably best to tear it down and start over. Once everything to the beltway is gone and Allen's landing is once again a mosquito infested swamp, once all evidence of human habitation in this place has long been erased from history, then this failed 170-year experiment in speculative real-estate can be forgotten, and at last the great rebirth of Houston can begin.

[DrLan34]

the guadalajara is pretty sweet and they have a nice lounge place upstairs to get some drinks before hittin up main street

[houstonartstudent]

So has anyone seen the cool new bus shelter they installed off of Fannin at the Pavilions? It should really help protect people waiting for the bus from the weather...too bad they placed it under the covered part of the circular walkway that already served that purpose I'll be sure to take a picture soon so you know where Metro's money is going rather than the light rail

[TheNiche]

I'm way too familiar w/Denver Pavillions - it may have been an initial success, but it is now very unimpressive.

Turnover was high even prior to the recession.

I thought then, and now, that it was disjointed with panhandlers just on the periphery at all times.

They also just lost Virgin Megastore with more vacancies to come. (All VMs are history now)

Locals I know have no civic pride in the rapidly aging facility, and "improvements" are unimpressive. It's a mutt.

I've observed that entertainment-oriented retail seems to follow this pattern as a general rule. I'm not sure that it has much of anything to do with design, layout, or access (in this case). It's just the nature of the business, not unlike bars or nightclubs.

We live in Houston, Texas... the land of no zoning, skyscrapers that can sprout out of literally nowhere... and we're gonna criticize HP for being disjointed from the activity centers of Downtown?? Give me a BREAK. Where's the criticism for those who decided to build the GRB and the Theater District on opposite ends of downtown? Where's the criticism for all of those people that decided to gut the grocery stores/retail from the 40s and 50s, rip up the streetcar lines, and literally "pave paradise"? Surely the awesome burden of connectivity for the Houston CBD does not fall entirely to one brave little development that decided to open in the midst of Recessionary vice.

Convention and Theater traffic aren't really related. I'm not sure that there's much of a synergy. And certainly the history of the two districts are internally and comparatively disjointed; it is not only that one hand could not have known what the other was doing--individual fingers acted apart from one another, and the palm, too.

In the context of their era (its culture, economy, aesthetic, and perception of history), it's hard to blame people who drained the life from downtowns across the country in the name of 'urban renewal'. Were any tears shed, recently, when Gulfgate Mall was torn down and rebuilt as a power center? No, we celebrated. It was a crappy and dingy mid-century mall; just like Radio Row was a crappy enclave of dingy 19th-century buildings before it was wiped clean in the early 60's for the construction of the original WTC towers. Buildings are a lot like cars, in that they're prized by the masses when they're new, shunned by all in middle age, then prized once more by the elite in old age--and even then only after the surviving buildings are a rarity, essentially collectors' pieces.

[totheskies]

Convention and Theater traffic aren't really related. I'm not sure that there's much of a synergy. And certainly the history of the two districts are internally and comparatively disjointed; it is not only that one hand could not have known what the other was doing--individual fingers acted apart from one another, and the palm, too.

In the context of their era (its culture, economy, aesthetic, and perception of history), it's hard to blame people who drained the life from downtowns across the country in the name of 'urban renewal'. Were any tears shed, recently, when Gulfgate Mall was torn down and rebuilt as a power center? No, we celebrated. It was a crappy and dingy mid-century mall; just like Radio Row was a crappy enclave of dingy 19th-century buildings before it was wiped clean in the early 60's for the construction of the original WTC towers. Buildings are a lot like cars, in that they're prized by the masses when they're new, shunned by all in middle age, then prized once more by the elite in old age--and even then only after the surviving buildings are a rarity, essentially collectors' pieces.

In what way are they "non-related"? Is it b/c you expect the Ballet and Opera-goers to want to eat out at fancier restaurants than the conventioneers? I guess that's the case for the "old guard", but I have a sneaking suspicions that Gen-Xers and Millennials might change that.

[Houston19514]

There's an article in today's Houston Business Journal about Warehouse Live opening a third venue called the Green Room. In the article they refer to the "uber-successful" House of Blues and say that it (the House of Blues) is already planning an expansion.

[TheNiche]

In what way are they "non-related"? Is it b/c you expect the Ballet and Opera-goers to want to eat out at fancier restaurants than the conventioneers? I guess that's the case for the "old guard", but I have a sneaking suspicions that Gen-Xers and Millennials might change that.

Oh, ok. I wasn't clear that you were getting at retail offerings. I thought you were just talking about some kind of synergy between convention centers and theaters, directly. That'd be a fair point except that downtowns don't occur spontaneously in a master-planned format, much less under the direction of a single entity operating from the same vantage point over a period of centuries. Real life isn't like Sim City.

Even an environment like the University of Houston, where there's a massive chunk of land under one deep-pocketed owner seems to completely rearrange their master plan about every ten to fifteen years based on the most recent fads in architecture and planning, creating a disjointed puzzle out of their campus.

[houstonartstudent]

make that two bus shelters under the already-covered area!...what is this world coming to?!?

[Gooch]

Buildings are a lot like cars, in that they're prized by the masses when they're new, shunned by all in middle age, then prized once more by the elite in old age--and even then only after the surviving buildings are a rarity, essentially collectors' pieces.

That's an excellent analogy! But don't forget carmakers also built the Yugo.

Edited March 14, 2009 by Gooch

[totheskies]

Oh, ok. I wasn't clear that you were getting at retail offerings. I thought you were just talking about some kind of synergy between convention centers and theaters, directly. That'd be a fair point except that downtowns don't occur spontaneously in a master-planned format, much less under the direction of a single entity operating from the same vantage point over a period of centuries. Real life isn't like Sim City.

Even an environment like the University of Houston, where there's a massive chunk of land under one deep-pocketed owner seems to completely rearrange their master plan about every ten to fifteen years based on the most recent fads in architecture and planning, creating a disjointed puzzle out of their campus.

If you're just referring to layout then I'd have to argue that HP did a pretty good job (or maybe a better way to say is that they made a good guess), at least from the perspective of creating an "activity node". Eventhough it's displaced by a block, HP is in between Macy's and Houston Center. This has the potential to create shopping district for downtown... it's a gonna take a while in this rough time, but I think the potential is still there.

[HtownWxBoy]

Houston Pavilions tenants keep hope

Houston Pavilions

According to ABC13, Lucky Strike Lanes is close to securing new investors and it could be open by early summer.

[Montrose1100]

In what way are they "non-related"? Is it b/c you expect the Ballet and Opera-goers to want to eat out at fancier restaurants than the conventioneers? I guess that's the case for the "old guard", but I have a sneaking suspicions that Gen-Xers and Millennials might change that.

If I wore a tux (as most gentlemen do.. not saying I'm a gentleman, but others who attend), to the Opera, you wouldn't find me in the same resteraunt as the Gun Show crowd. It's not a snobby remark, but if one is dressed in such attire, you usually don't see them mingling in everyday eateries. But then again I know a couple of people who went to McDonalds before prom...