GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[largeTEXAS]

Check out Laguarda Low's website. They have old renderings of the Pavilions, but you can get a taste of their style.

http://www.laguardalow.com/#

[citykid09]

^Cool!, I like those other projects also!

[brijonmang]

yeah seriously...maybe they could do some more work here in houston

[nate]

Just for the record, the average weekend rates at the Hilton Americas run upwards of $135-140/night. Weeknight rates are running about twice that, in the $260-300/night range. And the occupancy rate is often more than 50%. My parents stayed at the hotel two weeks ago and the occupancy rate that weekend was way over 50%, as the place was packed both Friday and Saturday night. Both the restaurant on the first floor and the coffee bar were doing a booming business at breakfast on that Saturday, with many people buying the $14 breakfast buffet.

Hotels don't just make money off guest rooms. There's a ton of profit in their catering and meeting room services, as well as bars and restaurants. The Hilton Americas handles a ton of smaller meetings and conferences, which all pay for meeting room rentals and food, and if the event is pulling in out-of-towners, guestrooms.

I don't think the Hilton Americas is hurting all that much. If it was, Hilton would be offering some much better weekend specials at the property than they are to keep it full.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tonight, I could stay at the Hilton for $109. Next weekend, I can get a room for $89. Source: hilton.com

Maybe the Hilton is doing better than other convention center hotels, I don't konw. It is a fact that convention center hotels around the country regularly have terrible vacancy rates and dirt cheap rooms.

If the hotel made business sense, why didn't a hotelier build when the convention center opened? The answer is that without taxpayer subsidies, the hotel probably would not be profitable.

[YakuzaIce]

Check out Laguarda Low's website. They have old renderings of the Pavilions...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cool renderings. I had not seen these before. They are pretty close up and detailed compared to the older renderings. But they do appear to be of the old design.

[KinkaidAlum]

Interesting thing is that today's on-line version of the Houston Business Journal is reporting that the Greater Houston Convention and Visitors Bureau reported booking 650,000 FUTURE room nights worth an estimated $65 million going directly to local hotels and an overall economic impact of $800 million to the greater Houston area.

Seems as if building the hotel has DEFINITELY helped in future bookings.

[JJ18]

I wonder what kind of stores would lease in the Pavillions I do know one thing is that anything would be good for downtown.

With American Apparel and Foley's (Macy's) tourist and out of towners won't fell like if there somewhere with out familiar shopping

Maybe....

Border's

Coffee Bean and Tea Leaf

Coach

Virgin Megastore

ESPN Zone

NIKETOWN

Diesel

Eddie Bauer

Jillian's

A&F

AE

Hot Topic

Vans

Yall know some urban-like shops that cater to young people because Downtown has clubs restaurants and its new and it attracts young people more than it does 50 somethings.

[citykid09]

I think any kind of shops that the Galleria does not have, because you don't want one to take away from the other.

[YakuzaIce]

If anyone cares on channel 16 (TWC) I believe they are talking to the city council about Pavillions.

[houstonfella]

I have seen some pretty imbarising streets around Houston, streets with ditches?????? Come on your the 4th largest city in the USA and you still have ditches. People from other cities come to Houston and see that and they laugh.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ride the subway to Shea Stadium in NY and come back and tell me you'll laugh at about anything in Houston.

[Pumapayam]

I have an open ditch in my neighborhood and would not change that for the world

Sure, I would like a sidewalk. But the open ditch give it a country feeling in an urban environment. That and when it rains hard, the water is absorbed into the ground much faster.

[kjb434]

The open ditches in some areas of houston do give the illusion that you are no longer in an urban environment which some people love. We have plenty enough urban streets within this city to not go after the existing ditches and turn them to storm sewers.

The Memorial villages have had a recent drainage study performed and one of the guidines was no storm sewers or minimal implementation at best to preserve the ditch system.

Anyway,

The pavillons project seems just need some approvals from the city about tax incentives and some negotiating about getting into the TIRZ along main street. If these things occure, it seems like its all a go.

[H-Town Man]

I have an open ditch in my neighborhood and would not change that for the world

Sure, I would like a sidewalk.

[RedScare]

Having read this same style of argument in numerous threads, I started asking myself, 'why are these posters so bound and determined to turn Houston into some other city, or worse, The Woodlands or some other suburb?'

I believe it is the same thing that drives everything else in this country...pop culture. Not pop music, although that is a big part of pop culture, but the culture itself. Pop is short for popular. The popular culture in the US is rampant sameness. We are constantly bombarded by media and marketing telling us what is 'in' or 'hip' or 'cool' or any number of other current terms that signify that we are in the vanguard of society.

The problem is, while we constantly look to see what the 'hip' people are wearing, or where they are living, we are handcuffing our own individuality. If you are obsessed with what everyone else does, and strive to imitate it, you are far from 'hip'...you are a slave to fashion.

Houston's personality comes from the fact that it used not to be a slave to fashion. It marched to its own beat, similar, though a different beat, to New Orleans, for instance. Lately, Houston is in danger of losing that individuality. There are those who are terrified that Houston will not be the same as New York, Chicago or LA...or even Dallas. We cry that downtown should look more like Dallas' or Chicago's. We try to rename our districts to sound like New York's. We have threads on this forum devoted to whether we have as many 'upscale' stores as Dallas...as if that means something.

This obsession with trying to be like everyone else suggests an insecurity with oneself. Houston at times, suffers from this obsession on a citywide scale. However, nowhere is this more evident than in the comments of those who do not even deign to live inside the city itself. Those who choose to live in the vast plains of sameness insist that those of us who are trying to salvage the city's individuality cease and desist and conform to the norms of the masses. They cry that Houston is doomed if it does not conform to the edict of Madison Avenue and become Dallas.

I hope Houston does not succumb to the pressure to conform. I hope we do not enact zoning. I hope we don't try to recreate The Woodlands inside the Loop. I hope we don't let Uptown creep outside of its niche next to the west loop. And most of all, I hope the litmus test for all new development does not become whether it is 'family friendly', for that is just a recipe for boring sameness.

The Pavillions will genrate traffic for downtown. That is good. The park will add to the things to do downtown. The redevelopment of the bayou will add to the beauty of downtown. But, if all new development merely aims to attract families by day, and upper middle class whites by night, it will miss the point. I'd love to see a downtown that attracts, not only these groups, but hip-hoppers, latinos, skaters and others. It is only by having all Houstonians enjoying downtown will it be worth bragging about.

[nate]

Having read this same style of argument in numerous threads, I started asking myself, 'why are these posters so bound and determined to turn Houston into some other city, or worse, The Woodlands or some other suburb?'

I believe it is the same thing that drives everything else in this country...pop culture.  Not pop music, although that is a big part of pop culture, but the culture itself.  Pop is short for popular.  The popular culture in the US is rampant sameness.  We are constantly bombarded by media and marketing telling us what is 'in' or 'hip' or 'cool' or any number of other current terms that signify that we are in the vanguard of society. 

The problem is, while we constantly look to see what the 'hip' people are wearing, or where they are living, we are handcuffing our own individuality.  If you are obsessed with what everyone else does, and strive to imitate it, you are far from 'hip'...you are a slave to fashion.

Houston's personality comes from the fact that it used not to be a slave to fashion.  It marched to its own beat, similar, though a different beat, to New Orleans, for instance.  Lately, Houston is in danger of losing that individuality.  There are those who are terrified that Houston will not be the same as New York, Chicago or LA...or even Dallas.  We cry that downtown should look more like Dallas' or Chicago's.  We try to rename our districts to sound like New York's.  We have threads on this forum devoted to whether we have as many 'upscale' stores as Dallas...as if that means something.

This obsession with trying to be like everyone else suggests an insecurity with oneself.  Houston at times, suffers from this obsession on a citywide scale.  However, nowhere is this more evident than in the comments of those who do not even deign to live inside the city itself.  Those who choose to live in the vast plains of sameness insist that those of us who are trying to salvage the city's individuality cease and desist and conform to the norms of the masses.  They cry that Houston is doomed if it does not conform to the edict of Madison Avenue and become Dallas.

I hope Houston does not succumb to the pressure to conform.  I hope we do not enact zoning.  I hope we don't try to recreate The Woodlands inside the Loop.  I hope we don't let Uptown creep outside of its niche next to the west loop.  And most of all, I hope the litmus test for all new development does not become whether it is 'family friendly', for that is just a recipe for boring sameness.

The Pavillions will genrate traffic for downtown.  That is good.  The park will add to the things to do downtown.  The redevelopment of the bayou will add to the beauty of downtown.  But, if all new development merely aims to attract families by day, and upper middle class whites by night, it will miss the point.  I'd love to see a downtown that attracts, not only these groups, but hip-hoppers, latinos, skaters and others.  It is only by having all Houstonians enjoying downtown will it be worth bragging about.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Amen, brother.

A lot of people on this forum wish that Houston would be more like Uptown Dallas. That would be a disaster. Uptown Dallas is attractive in many parts, but it is just so sterile. There is very little demographic diversity and very little architectual diversity. Other people I know have said the same thing.

Remember what Philip Johnson said: "I like Houston. It's the last great 19th-century city. Houston has a spirit about it that is truly American, an optimism. People there aren't afraid to try something new."

Keep it up. Don't become Dallas, don't enact zoning. In other works, keep blazing the trail. Stay Houston.

[suzerain]

Amen, brother.

A lot of people on this forum wish that Houston would be more like Uptown Dallas. That would be a disaster. Uptown Dallas is attractive in many parts, but it is just so sterile. There is very little demographic diversity and very little architectual diversity.  Other people I know have said the same thing.

Remember what Philip Johnson said: "I like Houston. It's the last great 19th-century city. Houston has a spirit about it that is truly American, an optimism. People there aren't afraid to try something new."

Keep it up. Don't become Dallas, don't enact zoning. In other works, keep blazing the trail. Stay Houston.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think that a lot of this can be attributed to Houston following its own spirit. There is not a whole to Houston that I have seen that it can be said that this city has that others do not. A thriving downtown on the bayou where trade occurred and the residents lived used to be this city. I do not think talking about enacting zoning and learning from other cities causes this city to lose its trailblazing spirit. Rather, I think Houston has lost that cutting edge spirit. I go to other cities and see so many more places that are unique to that city and form part of what it means to live in that city...Houston, not so much.

I really want Houston to succeed, but I do not think Philip Johnson would decry zoning. How is Houston more unique by having suburbs extending 50 miles away and 16 lane highways and traffic all hours of the day because you have to drive everywhere.

Houston was the city of the 20th century. My fear, and due to the anathema to zoning fed by developers who want to the suburbs and easy and quick turnaround on their investment, is that Houston will become more of symbol of mistakes and missed chances. There are some in this city who want to change this. I think Mayor Lee Brown (and I am not usually a fan of his) hit it head on when he said that the city has to consider planning, increasng quality of life, and creating an urban alternative because young college graduates and other more educated persons through out the country do not want to come to Houston.

I loved growing up here. I hate that my wife and I consider moving elsewhere because of the flaws here in Houston and the fact that they seem to get worse. For example widening I45 through the Heights. The city needs to fight battles to keep Houston from being more and more eaten up by highway with less and less housing in the inner core, lest the only trailblazing this city sees is a greater exodus to further and further suburbs.

Projects like this give me hope that, at least in some areas, Houston is getting its act together and seeing that a strong urban core builds a city, builds its identity, and allows for more than one lifestyle choice in this city.

Suzerain

[texasboy]

I don't think that a lot of this can be attributed to Houston following its own spirit.  There is not a whole to Houston that I have seen that it can be said that this city has that others do not.  A thriving downtown on the bayou where trade occurred and the residents lived used to be this city.  I do not think talking about enacting zoning and learning from other cities causes this city to lose its trailblazing spirit.  Rather, I think Houston has lost that cutting edge spirit.  I go to other cities and see so many more places that are unique to that city and form part of what it means to live in that city...Houston, not so much.

I really want Houston to succeed, but I do not think Philip Johnson would decry zoning.  How is Houston more unique by having suburbs extending 50 miles away and  16 lane highways and traffic all hours of the day because you have to drive everywhere.

Houston was the city of the 20th century.  My fear, and due to the anathema to zoning fed by developers who want to the suburbs and easy and quick turnaround on their investment, is that Houston will become more of symbol of mistakes and missed chances.  There are some in this city who want to change this.  I think Mayor Lee Brown (and I am not usually a fan of his) hit it head on when he said that the city has to consider planning, increasng quality of life, and creating an urban alternative because young college graduates and other more educated persons through out the country do not want to come to Houston. 

I loved growing up here.  I hate that my wife and I consider moving elsewhere because of the flaws here in Houston and the fact that they seem to get worse.  For example widening I45 through the Heights.  The city needs to fight battles to keep Houston from being more and more eaten up by highway with less and less housing in the inner core, lest the only trailblazing this city sees is a greater exodus to further and further suburbs.

Projects like this give me hope that, at least in some areas, Houston is getting its act together and seeing that a strong urban core builds a city, builds its identity, and allows for more than one lifestyle choice in this city.

Suzerain

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

amen

[kjb434]

Young college grads are large part of Houston's growth. I along with 1000s of students have moved to Houston because of opportunity.

Houstons sprawl is no different than Chicago, New York, London, Paris, Los Angeles. The all have sprawl and lots people that drive on large freeways.

Zoning will be like putting a band aid on Houston by encouraging sameness.

I aggree with Redscare completely on this.

Downtown shouldn't become a destination to visit, but also a viable community where people can live also.

[VelvetJ]

I don't think that a lot of this can be attributed to Houston following its own spirit.  There is not a whole to Houston that I have seen that it can be said that this city has that others do not.  A thriving downtown on the bayou where trade occurred and the residents lived used to be this city.  I do not think talking about enacting zoning and learning from other cities causes this city to lose its trailblazing spirit.  Rather, I think Houston has lost that cutting edge spirit.  I go to other cities and see so many more places that are unique to that city and form part of what it means to live in that city...Houston, not so much.

I really want Houston to succeed, but I do not think Philip Johnson would decry zoning.  How is Houston more unique by having suburbs extending 50 miles away and  16 lane highways and traffic all hours of the day because you have to drive everywhere.

Houston was the city of the 20th century.  My fear, and due to the anathema to zoning fed by developers who want to the suburbs and easy and quick turnaround on their investment, is that Houston will become more of symbol of mistakes and missed chances.  There are some in this city who want to change this.  I think Mayor Lee Brown (and I am not usually a fan of his) hit it head on when he said that the city has to consider planning, increasng quality of life, and creating an urban alternative because young college graduates and other more educated persons through out the country do not want to come to Houston. 

I loved growing up here.  I hate that my wife and I consider moving elsewhere because of the flaws here in Houston and the fact that they seem to get worse.  For example widening I45 through the Heights.  The city needs to fight battles to keep Houston from being more and more eaten up by highway with less and less housing in the inner core, lest the only trailblazing this city sees is a greater exodus to further and further suburbs.

Projects like this give me hope that, at least in some areas, Houston is getting its act together and seeing that a strong urban core builds a city, builds its identity, and allows for more than one lifestyle choice in this city.

Suzerain

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Double Amen to this post Suzerain. Wanting Houston to progress in itself has nothing to do with trying to be like someone else. Maybe this is what has happened to our city. Fear of being like another city caused us to become stagnant. Or maybe it's because whenever a flaw is brought to the attention of our citizens, we come up with every excuse imaginable and find a way to defend it, like some consistently demonstrate on this board. Who in their right mind can defend the appearance of I-45 North? Well incredibly, a very well known business man in our city found a way to defend the appearance of it. It boggles the brain. It's almost like a particular American President who doesn't want to hear anyone that disagrees with him, so he creates his own world where everything is rosey despite the screaming evidence.

That quote from Phillip Johnson was describing the Houston of that time. The Houston of today is different. Houston was on the cutting edge. It wasn't afraid to take chances. It was first to do things. It wanted to be the best of the best. It wanted to be like no other place. Those days are now replaced by a city that seems to be stifled with conservatism ( this has nothing to do with politics). Houston always seems to be a step behind now. We seemed to have embraced a, " as cheap as you can get it" mentality ( and this was evident before 9-11). I truly wonder what Phillip Johnson would say to the overall quality of buildings that have gone up recently in his self described "Showcase City"?

With all due respect, but to ignore what has made the worlds greatest cities successful, out of fear of "becoming like other cities", is foolish. Not keeping up with the rest of the world in what is "hip" can leave you in last place, something that unfortunately is becoming a part of who we are.

Personally, I can't say I'm exactly for zoning, however I look at the city's number one tourist attraction. It is in the most prestigous shopping area in the region. People literally come from other countries to Houston specifically to shop in this area. It is known across the world. It is Houston's hip stylish beauty mark. And right at the entrance of the 'Rodeo Drive of Texas', is a BIG OL' RED ZONE D' EROTICA SIGN. Folks, despite any argument that anyone makes on how awesome it is to have it there and how it shows how Houston is different from other cities, this is not something to be proud of, and our residents need to begin to understand WHY this sort of thing isn't cool.

Redscare, after reading the last paragraph on your last post, I would swear you were describing a number of other cities around the country. I know you wouldn't want downtown Houston to become the way you decribed because that would be like trying to be like other cities, and I know you don't want that.

[RedScare]

VelvetJ, the reason you were surprised by my last paragraph is that you misread what I am saying. I don't want Houston to stop growing. I don't want Houston to stop building. I don't mind if parts of Houston look like other cities. What I don't want to see is Houston building palaces of fakeness and little potemkin villages to impress visitors.

My point is that visitors will be impressed by visiting a real downtown that serves the locals. That downtown would include restaurants, shops, bars and other entertainment for locals, that visitors will enjoy as well. When you go to New Orleans or San Francisco, Chicago or New York, do you complain that there are no malls to look at? Do you complain that it is not as clean as the Woodlands mall? Of course not.

In that same way, visitors to Houston want to come and enjoy the way we live life. If that way of life is just like what they left, there will be no reason to visit. Few cities have the Galleria. Few have a downtown the size of Houston's. If we improve both for ourselves, others will appreciate them, too.

By the same token, every medium to large city has Sugarlands and Woodlands, with the malls that accompany them. Maybe the Woodlands mall looks nicer than most, but would you travel to see it? And how long can you look at street after street of brick tract homes before you go crazy?

I want to see us improve what is broken, while keeping what makes Houston "grow on you". And you can't do that by razing everything and building new. It will just be a potemkin village.

[eelimon]

I like when y'all get this way.

[YakuzaIce]

I really want Houston to succeed, but I do not think Philip Johnson would decry zoning.  How is Houston more unique by having suburbs extending 50 miles away and  16 lane highways and traffic all hours of the day because you have to drive everywhere.

Suzerain

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Zoning doesn't stop freeways or sprawl by the way. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but once you get out of the zoning the city cannot have zoning regulations there.

Personally, I can't say I'm exactly for zoning, however I look at the city's number one tourist attraction. It is in the most prestigous shopping area in the region. People literally come from other countries to Houston specifically to shop in this area. It is known across the world. It is Houston's hip stylish beauty mark. And right at the entrance of the 'Rodeo Drive of Texas', is a BIG OL' RED ZONE D' EROTICA SIGN. Folks, despite any argument that anyone makes on how awesome it is to have it there and how it shows how Houston is different from other cities, this is not something to be proud of, and our residents need to begin to understand WHY this sort of thing isn't cool.

With zoning that area would likely be nothing more than a mall, and the original neighborhoods. Zoning would not have allowed 901 foot tall towers to be built in the area. Also regarding signs. Our own no zone downtown has a ban on signs over a certain height. Only a couple government funded or historical buildings have gotten away with having high signage. The other exception is continental and they only were allowed that because they took up a majority of the building and it is only lights.

[nmainguy]

Young college grads are large part of Houston's growth.  I along with 1000s of students have moved to Houston because of opportunity. 

Houstons sprawl is no different than Chicago, New York, London, Paris, Los Angeles.  The all have sprawl and lots people that drive on large freeways.

Zoning will be like putting a band aid on Houston by encouraging sameness.

I aggree with Redscare completely on this. 

Downtown shouldn't become a destination to visit, but also a viable community where people can live also.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

kjb434: I can no longer hold my tounge. You are a student? You rarely compose a complete, coherent sentence. [Young college grads are large part of Houston's growth...The all have sprawl and lots people that drive on large freeways.] Are you allergic to the words "a", "They" and "of"? Try to insert those 3 in the previous 2 sentences I've pasted from your post. Your posts many times are practically unreadable. This is just my pet peave: people who profess to be educated and consistantly display a total lack of grammer, spelling and lack of punctuation. It's not that I just disagree with your growth at any cost-damn the torpedos-add more freeway lanes forever-philosophy-it's just that you are so damn sloppy.

[arche_757]

Perhaps we could get a spell check added to the response page?

[nmainguy]

Perhaps we could get a spell check added to the response page?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...or a brain check...

[dbigtex56]

This is just my pet peave:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I get peevish about that, too.

[RedScare]

whoops.

[nmainguy]

dbigtex? a wise guy, huh?

OK...so I'm NOT perfect..sue me!

...and to RedScare: back at you ya commie!!!!

[VelvetJ]

Redscare, I got ya. I suppose I felt like preaching on yesterday, so I figured I would make you my one man congregation.

I knew what you meant, that's why I included the little wink at the end of the paragraph. In all honesty the emotion that came with that post was not directed toward you.

Although I meant what I typed, this was one of those times I admit I probably could have kept my calorie intaker closed.

[RedScare]

Hey, VJ, nothing personal. One thing that is clear from all of these posts is that a lot of us are very proud to call this 'burg home, and we all want it to become better. Some of us may have some personal preferences for what we want to see done, but we all want something done. I enjoy the comments, especially the ones that show a different point of view.

As to you, nmainguy..........