GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[shasta]

Yea... I was the one who posted the exact figures several days ago: 8.8 mil from the city, 5.5 mil from Harris County (out of nearly 200 mil total for the project)... do you really think the increased tax receipts from this development and future development spurred by the project will not eventually compensate for this investment? Seems like a basic cost-benefit analysis to me, and I would side with the city's decision.

I think people are overlooking the simple fact of what the city (and only the city is trying to achieve long term. They should be commended.

They are making an INVESTMENT in the heart of the city (downtown). They feel that if they make an investment and build a park, offer tax incentives to projects they agree with, expand the convention, build stadiums, hotels, etc. that it will be an INVESTMENT that will pay off for them in the future. How?

Well they are banking that by doing this 'planning' they will be able to recoup their investment by the increased tax potential for neighboring projects.

Example- spend money to build and maintain Discovery Green.........One Park Place is built (increased tax revenue)......Discovery Tower is built (increased tax revenue).....and the city is happy because they got the residential component near the park they were hoping for.

Retail is another part of the puzzle that they were looking to attract and they got it....and it probably will spawn further development.

The city proved they know what they were doing when no private developer would build a convention center HOTEL downtown...SO THEY DID IT. Now they made so much in profits that they are looking to flip that hotel and build another thus strengthening their Convention District.

The city is fine with what they are doing...see the big picture people. Who else makes a huge investment back into the city??

Edited May 24, 2008 by shasta

[musicman]

I haven't seen anyone make an argument like that. Are you missing the part about the city subsidizing the new downtown mall?

el mercado del sol anyone?

[PuroAztlan]

Booooooooooooooooorrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiinnnnngggg

How bout this, you ALL win.

All of you.

/Argument

[CasaNova]

when downtown can support it, it will come.

What came first the chicken or the egg? Man most people will not want to move DT unless there is something else to do after hours. And most chain retailers don't want to venture into an unproven area, unless they can capture a share of an untapped market. HP can be a catalystic synergy that can spur other projects. We have seen historically, that in Houston one project alone will not be the answer to all, but it has to start somewhere and hope that it keeps on growing. Other cities have done this succesfully.

What I find interesting, and someone else mentioned this earlier in different words, the downfall of Houston not evolving into a premier city has to do with what got us to be the fourth largest city. Sprawl, suburban sprawl. Our populations has grown rapidly, but it has also expanded outward. This gives us sheer volume compared to other large cities, but not so in comparison by density per sq mile. And when you got people in the outskirt in Egypt who don't give a d-a-r-n about building up Houston's DT cuz they don't live there, we will never get anywhere far and fast. To many hands in the pot. Just my opinion anyway, don't mean to offend anybody.

Edited May 24, 2008 by Subdude
Improper language

[GovernorAggie]

Wow. Totally. Exhausting.

This discussion belongs in "Other Houston" not HP.

Oh by the way people, don't forget that Uptown is also subsidized and has been for a long time by the State and City.

There, I got my jab in there too.

Edited May 23, 2008 by GovernorAggie

[musicman]

What came first the chicken or the egg? Man most people will not want to move DT unless there is something else to do after hours. And most chain retailers don't want to venture into an unproven area, unless they can capture a share of an untapped market.

it comes down to having the population to support the businesses. i know several people who've lived downtown for 10 yrs or so. they had high hopes too but it seems their hopes haven't materialized as fast as they would have liked. property owners are charging too much rent for most small businesses to survive which limits prospective businesses.

What I find interesting, and someone else mentioned this earlier in different words, the downfall of Houston not evolving into a premier city has to do with what got us to be the fourth largest city. Sprawl, suburban sprawl. Our populations has grown rapidly, but it has also expanded outward. This gives us sheer volume compared to other large cities, but not so in comparison by density per sq mile. And when you got people in the outskirt in bone f**k Egypt who don't give a d-a-r-n about building up Houston's DT cuz they don't live there, we will never get anywhere far and fast. To many hands in the pot. Just my opinion anyway, don't mean to offend anybody.

most people move to the burbs for a reason. cheaper housing, better schools, different lifestyle (sailing, etc) not to live the lifestyle you want to live in downtown. there are people who've chosen to live downtown now and enjoy it.

as for the downfall of houston, where's that happening? most cities would kill to have our economy.

[RedScare]

Only if the project shows a profit for its backers. That should be their risk, not mine. And if the city gets its money back in tax receipts, it would have gotten more without the subsidy.

Hmm....no.

City gives $8.8 million incentive. Developer builds $200 million building. City taxes $200 million building at $0.65 per $100 valuation, resulting in $1.3 million in increased tax revenue PER YEAR. Over 10 years, City has profited by not only $4.2 million, but also the taxes on the equipment and inventory in each individual store, office and restaurant within the development, IN ADDITION to the sales taxes on all merchandise and services sold in the stores and restaurants.

OR, the City could continue to collect the $124,000 per year that it currently gets on 3 parking lots.

[memebag]

Hmm....no.

City gives $8.8 million incentive. Developer builds $200 million building. City taxes $200 million building at $0.65 per $100 valuation, resulting in $1.3 million in increased tax revenue PER YEAR. Over 10 years, City has profited by not only $4.2 million, but also the taxes on the equipment and inventory in each individual store, office and restaurant within the development, IN ADDITION to the sales taxes on all merchandise and services sold in the stores and restaurants.

OR, the City could continue to collect the $124,000 per year that it currently gets on 3 parking lots.

That's assuming HP (or some other mall) wouldn't have been built without the subsidy. If it's such a profitable idea, why did it need subsidizing?

[RedScare]

That's assuming HP (or some other mall) wouldn't have been built without the subsidy. If it's such a profitable idea, why did it need subsidizing?

I didn't say it was a profitable area. I pointed out that the tax revenue was $124,000 per year without the building, $1.3 million per year with it. Note that once built, the building has a taxable value 10 times the value of the parking lots, redardless whether any tenants move in. My post was in response to your incorrect one noted below.

Only if the project shows a profit for its backers. That should be their risk, not mine. And if the city gets its money back in tax receipts, it would have gotten more without the subsidy.

[memebag]

I didn't say it was a profitable area. I pointed out that the tax revenue was $124,000 per year without the building, $1.3 million per year with it. Note that once built, the building has a taxable value 10 times the value of the parking lots, redardless whether any tenants move in. My post was in response to your incorrect one noted below.

I'm not making something clear, but I'm not sure what. The post you responded to was trying to say that if the land was turned into a mall, the city would get more benefit if it hadn't subsidized it. They get to collect the taxes regardless of their subsidy. I wasn't talking about a scenario where the land wasn't turned into a mall.

[RedScare]

I'm not making something clear, but I'm not sure what. The post you responded to was trying to say that if the land was turned into a mall, the city would get more benefit if it hadn't subsidized it. They get to collect the taxes regardless of their subsidy. I wasn't talking about a scenario where the land wasn't turned into a mall.

Why waste time debating something neither you nor I can prove? The only thing we know is that nothing was on the land and nothing publicly proposed prior to the HP project. It appears clear that the incentive helped cause development the property sooner, but not being privy to negotiations, neither of us can conclusively debate that either.

At the end of the day, I support some targeted incentives to spur tax-producing development, and the math in my post indicates why I supported this one. The construction of One Park Place and Discovery Tower is why I support the donation of a $40 million property that became Discovery Green. You apparently feel otherwise. Good for you. You've not persuaded me to change my mind.

[ricco67]

I think people are overlooking the simple fact of what the city (and only the city is trying to achieve long term. They should be commended.

They are making an INVESTMENT in the heart of the city (downtown). They feel that if they make an investment and build a park, offer tax incentives to projects they agree with, expand the convention, build stadiums, hotels, etc. that it will be an INVESTMENT that will pay off for them in the future. How?

Well they are banking that by doing this 'planning' they will be able to recoup their investment by the increased tax potential for neighboring projects.

Example- spend money to build and maintain Discovery Green.........One Park Place is built (increased tax revenue)......Discovery Tower is built (increased tax revenue).....and the city is happy because they got the residential componnent near the park they were hoping for.

Retail is another part of the puzzle that they were looking to attract and they got it....and it probably will spawn further development.

The city proved they know what they were doing when no private developer would build a convention center downtown...SO THEY DID IT. Now they made so much in profits that they are looking to flip that one and build another thus strengthening their Convention District.

The city is fine with what they are doing...see the big picture people. Who elese makes a huge investment back into teh city??

Whether or not you want to believe it, the city is playing it very smart. Most of the subsisidized or Tax Reinvestment zones (Galleria, Midtown anyone?) have paid off wonderfully in the long term.

Jax's argument as far as "locals" using it that live nearby may not come into total fruition, but it WILL be part of the equation. The main thing is that it will give convention goers, visiting businessmen, as well as the locals (Downtown, midtown, East side) a place to go to.

I think the other investments that have been done downtown have worked out wonderfully, The Hilton Americas is bearing fruit with the expansion of the GRB (which, if I remember correctly the initial construction was fought by EVERYONE), Discovery Green will be an added amenity to those that work and live in the area.

el mercado del sol anyone?

El Mercado was a joke, I totally understand, but it was a different time, in fact, I think it was done ahead of its time. That part of Houston was considered a virtual deadzone with only the projects next door and a poor mexican community in a relatively inaccessable part of town. Could it be done today? Probably not, in 5 years? Probably.

Hmm....no.

City gives $8.8 million incentive. Developer builds $200 million building. City taxes $200 million building at $0.65 per $100 valuation, resulting in $1.3 million in increased tax revenue PER YEAR. Over 10 years, City has profited by not only $4.2 million, but also the taxes on the equipment and inventory in each individual store, office and restaurant within the development, IN ADDITION to the sales taxes on all merchandise and services sold in the stores and restaurants.

OR, the City could continue to collect the $124,000 per year that it currently gets on 3 parking lots.

As usual, Red gets it and puts it well.

[lockmat]

Jax's argument as far as "locals" using it that live nearby may not come into total fruition, but it WILL be part of the equation. The main thing is that it will give convention goers, visiting businessmen, as well as the locals (Downtown, midtown, East side) a place to go to.

I could be wrong, but my opinion is that for people (houstonians) to use it, a PARKING sign in neon lights on the side of the garage is needed. IMO people who are not used to going downtown are a little intimidated with finding a place to park. It's different for the Rockets and Astros b/c there are lots. Parking garage entrances aren't camoflaged, but can sometimes be a little harder to find. But when I see a piece of land with no building on it, I know what that is for and I can go right to it. People need to know where they can park, especially if they're not familiar with the area.

[ricco67]

I could be wrong, but my opinion is that for people (houstonians) to use it, a PARKING sign in neon lights on the side of the garage is needed. IMO people who are not used to going downtown are a little intimidated with finding a place to park. It's different for the Rockets and Astros b/c there are lots. Parking garage entrances aren't camoflaged, but can sometimes be a little harder to find. But when I see a piece of land with no building on it, I know what that is for and I can go right to it. People need to know where they can park, especially if they're not familiar with the area.

There are parking lots all over downtown that have a giant "P" at the entrance for sports patrons to use, not to mention there are those annoying hawkers that use flags and whistles to attract attention for people to use THEIR parking garages. Those that regularly attend sports will eventually learn about these.

I'll try to take a picture of one when I go to a game later today.

[lockmat]

There are parking lots all over downtown that have a giant "P" at the entrance for sports patrons to use, not to mention there are those annoying hawkers that use flags and whistles to attract attention for people to use THEIR parking garages. Those that regularly attend sports will eventually learn about these.

I'll try to take a picture of one when I go to a game later today.

Yeah, I know the P's you're talking about. But do those people who wave cars down to come into their garages do it when an event is not going on? Plus, people who go to HP may not go to ball games.

Anyway, HP shoppers will want to park in the HP garage anyway.

[BigSky]

Was it ever reported that Lawry's Steakhouse pulled out of HP. I read it in the HBJ recently, which has me a little concerned. I guess with all of the steakhouses in Downtown Houston the demos probably don't support that much competition, but I would have assumed that they did their due diligence previously. SO far, you have Morton's, Strip House, Timpano's, Don Shula's in the Hyatt and then the Lawry's all within a 5 block radius.

Mark

[Trae]

Was it ever reported that Lawry's Steakhouse pulled out of HP. I read it in the HBJ recently, which has me a little concerned. I guess with all of the steakhouses in Downtown Houston the demos probably don't support that much competition, but I would have assumed that they did their due diligence previously. SO far, you have Morton's, Strip House, Timpano's, Don Shula's in the Hyatt and then the Lawry's all within a 5 block radius.

Mark

Read the last two pages of this thread. A new restaurant has already taken Lawry's place.

[PuroAztlan]

Read the last two pages of this thread.

you tryna give da brotha a migraine?

[NewMND]

Read the last two pages of this thread.

LOL! That is just cruel. I wouldn't even make my worst enemy read the last two pages of this thread.

Lawrys did indeed pull out, but considering the number of "mixed-used" projects going up around town, I'm sure they'll find a home somewhere. Three Forks steak restaurant has replaced them in the Pavilions.

[Houston19514]

Was it ever reported that Lawry's Steakhouse pulled out of HP. I read it in the HBJ recently, which has me a little concerned. I guess with all of the steakhouses in Downtown Houston the demos probably don't support that much competition, but I would have assumed that they did their due diligence previously. SO far, you have Morton's, Strip House, Timpano's, Don Shula's in the Hyatt and then the Lawry's all within a 5 block radius.

Mark

+ Vic & Anthony's

+ the steakhouse in the Hilton Americas (I think it's name is Spencer's or something like that)

[pm91]

can someone please post some new pictures for updates? i never get to go DT (im 17) and i would love to see an update.. thanks

[midtownuser]

can someone please post some new pictures for updates? i never get to go DT (im 17) and i would love to see an update.. thanks

wow, you are only 17. good for you kid.

don't you know a watched pot never boils

Edited May 27, 2008 by midtownuser

[Mister X]

KHOU reported yesterday that the city council voted to allow the big electric signs at HP. It will be the Times Square of Texas. How glamourous. I'm starting to feel snootier and more pretentious already.

[Pumapayam]

KHOU reported yesterday that the city council voted to allow the big electric signs at HP. It will be the Times Square of Texas. How glamourous. I'm starting to feel snootier and more pretentious already.

KHOU story with video about signs.

Pre approval.

It says they will have four month to put it up, which means they can't install it after the October opening, or they will want to have it ready by then, can't tell.

[ricco67]

KHOU reported yesterday that the city council voted to allow the big electric signs at HP. It will be the Times Square of Texas. How glamourous. I'm starting to feel snootier and more pretentious already.

Oy Vey.

This could be bad. Any details on it?

[GovernorAggie]

I think it means they have four months to get them up, since the opening is in four months. This is great!

[2112]

Can we describe the set of people who want more retail downtown? Are they people who live downtown? Work downtown? Visit conventions?

I spend very little time downtown. I've lived and worked in Houston for over 40 years and less than one of those years was spent working downtown. When I was there I didn't feel a need to go shopping, except once when I got to work and realized I had forgotten to put on a belt. The lady at Macy's said they sell a lot of belts to people in that situation.

Just my two cents: You are right, for a large majority of us who dont live downtown, we dont have a burning need to shop there. Heck, there are plenty shopping districts in Houston that are worth going to, and in that respect Houston is not lacking. But it has nothing to do with that lack of urgency to shop in the CBD. It's about creating a downtown in our city we can all be proud of. How cool would it be to have a downtown that is just a little small version of Times' Square? Or maybe more realistically something that resembles downtown Seattle or Denver? There are proud Houstonians that would love to see thier downtown flourish, regardless where in the city they actually live. I'm sure with the 2 and a half million Houstonians and the 6 million in and around around the city, there is enough critical mass to make such a dream come true.

Edited June 3, 2008 by 2112

[Trae]

I like the approval. So what will be shown on them?

[TheNiche]

Just my two cents: You are right, for a large majority of us who dont live downtown, we dont have a burning need to shop there. Heck, there are plenty shopping districts in Houston that are worth going to, and in that respect Houston is not lacking. But it has nothing to do with that lack of urgency to shop in the CBD. It's about creating a downtown in our city we can all be proud of. How cool would it be to have a downtown that is just a little small version of Times' Square? Or maybe more realistically something that resembles downtown Seattle or Denver? There are proud Houstonians that would love to see thier downtown flourish, regardless where in the city they actually live. I'm sure with the 2 and a half million Houstonians and the 6 million in and around around the city, there is enough critical mass to make such a dream come true.

^CBD Fetishism

It oughta be in the DSM-V.

[memebag]

Just my two cents: You are right, for a large majority of us who dont live downtown, we dont have a burning need to shop there. Heck, there are plenty shopping districts in Houston that are worth going to, and in that respect Houston is not lacking. But it has nothing to do with that lack of urgency to shop in the CBD. It's about creating a downtown in our city we can all be proud of.

I was proud of our downtown when it was a skater's paradise at night. That was something unique about Houston: we all go home at night and let the Urban Animals play while we sleep.

How cool would it be to have a downtown that is just a little small version of Times' Square?

Not very. There's a big version of Times Square and I know where to find it, if I wanted it.

Or maybe more realistically something that resembles downtown Seattle or Denver?

Why resemble something else when it can be what it is?