lockmat Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 This vid might explain it. . .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiUOh!!!! got me. niiiiiiiiice move Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memebag Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 memebag, You really don't know the economic impact a retail mall can do for the CBD? Conventions?Dang it, I was going to use that quote in my sig!(Google says that word is used 191 times on this forum, btw.)I think I know the economic impact of a retail mall. Why does that mean taxes should subsidize this one?If the mall will make money, then why does it need a subsidy?If the mall won't make money, then why are we subsidizing a mall that can't show a profit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PuroAztlan Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 If there is such a huge demand and/or potential for higher end developments along main their is about a dozen other surface lots that can disappear. I guess next time a developer has a 100 million + to invest DT they better ask "The Niche" or "memebag" for advice first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tierwestah Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 If we went by The Niche's logic, none of us would be able to see downtown prosper in our lifetimes. We'd still have the downtown we had back in 1998/1999. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasaNova Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Surface lots are an opportunity to grow. These prime lots have been underdeveloped, and thus have undercut that opportunity.What would've gone there had the project failed and those lots were still available in today's office market? Just think of all the highrises, all the new employees brought downtown.Heck, even Bill Denton remarked last year that if they had known things were going to improve this much, they would've dramatically expanded their office component....and things have gotten even better since then. Had the City just left this alone, to die like it should've in the first place, we could've gotten something better.I doubt it. It would have been another reason for people to whine and dog it ( no matter what that project would have been) just like this HP project is being dogged now. I mean you are never going to make everybody happy. Unhappy people always find something to bi*ch about. Nothing is ever good enough, and then they complain when nothing is ever done, go figure. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Time to take action and stop talking, that's what the city has done. Hey it's like a guy or a girl always waiting for something better, in the end they end up by themselves, with no one, or wishing they hadn't passed up on someone earlier that should have been appreciated. This is a good start (HP) and i have a feeling it will spur other developements. The subsidizing has other intangibles. If it spurs other projects, it will raise value and pay for it self. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockmat Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 (edited) I doubt it. It would have been another reason for people to whine and dog it ( no matter what that project would have been) just like this HP project is being dogged now. I mean you are never going to make everybody happy. Unhappy people always find something to bi*ch about. Nothing is ever good enough, and then they complain when nothing is ever done, go figure. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Time to take action and stop talking, that's what the city has done. Hey it's like a guy or a girl always waiting for something better, in the end they end up by themselves, with no one, or wishing they hadn't passed up on someone earlier that should have been appreciated. This is a good start (HP) and i have a feeling it will spur other developements. The subsidizing has other intangibles. If it spurs other projects, it will raise value and pay for it self.Well, if it's true that these new towers are going up will have retail on the first floor, the retail we want is coming, just not in mass like HP.So in a way, niche could be right. A couple huge towers could have been built there with retail on the bottom and the only thing missing from each might be an extra floor of retail/entertainment. It's just that HP gives us what we want in one chunk, but it's not necessarily by demand (subsidy).The towers with retail are coming, slowly but surely.But I'm happy with HP, but I see what niche is saying. Edited May 22, 2008 by lockmat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memebag Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 It's just that HP gives us what we want in one chunk, but it's not necessarily by demand (subsidy).Who is this "we" that wants more retail? Am I the only citizen who has way more retail than I need? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crunchtastic Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Who is this "we" that wants more retail? Am I the only citizen who has way more retail than I need?Meme, is that you on my lawn? Good grief. Niche is right. I give up arguing. It's about density, and how much the City is stupidly subsidizing land that's not seeing its best use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jax Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Who is this "we" that wants more retail? Am I the only citizen who has way more retail than I need?It's not that meme bag just doesn't get it, it's just that he likes to argue. Unfortunately, that is starting to make this forum kind of annoying, for me at least... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memebag Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 It's not that meme bag just doesn't get it, it's just that he likes to argue. Unfortunately, that is starting to make this forum kind of annoying, for me at least...Was it different before I arrived? Did everyone here belong to the "we" that wants more retail? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-Town Man Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Who is this "we" that wants more retail? Am I the only citizen who has way more retail than I need? A lot of people want more retail downtown. It encourages street life. In the case of HP, it gives convention visitors something to do. It's not that meme bag just doesn't get it, it's just that he likes to argue. Unfortunately, that is starting to make this forum kind of annoying, for me at least... Arguing makes this forum annoying? Why should arguing make this forum annoying? Do you have a problem with arguing? Or do you have a problem with things that are annoying? Please cite logical reasons why arguing would make this forum more annoying for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt16 Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Who is this "we" that wants more retail? Am I the only citizen who has way more retail than I need?We all have enough retail to fill our NEED, but a fair amount of us WANT more retail options DT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 We all have enough retail to fill our NEED, but a fair amount of us WANT more retail options DT.when downtown can support it, it will come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumapayam Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 We all have enough retail to fill our NEED, but a fair amount of us WANT more retail options DT.You need more residental . . . to support the retail. A balance needs to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jax Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Arguing makes this forum annoying? Why should arguing make this forum annoying? Do you have a problem with arguing? Or do you have a problem with things that are annoying?Please cite logical reasons why arguing would make this forum more annoying for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memebag Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 A lot of people want more retail downtown. It encourages street life. In the case of HP, it gives convention visitors something to do.Can we describe the set of people who want more retail downtown? Are they people who live downtown? Work downtown? Visit conventions?I spend very little time downtown. I've lived and worked in Houston for over 40 years and less than one of those years was spent working downtown. When I was there I didn't feel a need to go shopping, except once when I got to work and realized I had forgotten to put on a belt. The lady at Macy's said they sell a lot of belts to people in that situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desirous Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 You need more residental . . . to support the retail. A balance needs to happen. Certainly... which doesn't stop downtown residents like me from demanding more retail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jax Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 (edited) People who live close to downtown would shop downtown. People who visit Houston and stay downtown would shop downtown. People who work downtown would shop downtown. Students who study near downtown would shop downtown. Etc.Friends and family in Canada don't live in Downtown Toronto or Montreal but that is where they go to shop, for some strange reason. If you live in the burbs of Toronto you have the same choice of malls and strip centers as Houston but there is also the option of downtown shopping which is an entirely different experience. I for one would prefer to shop downtown instead of the Rice Village because I could get there without having to drive or take a bus with 2 transfers each taking 25 minutes. Edited May 23, 2008 by Jax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsb320 Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 It's not that meme bag just doesn't get it, it's just that he likes to argue. Unfortunately, that is starting to make this forum kind of annoying, for me at least...I'm getting weary too. Enough fighting, complaining and bitching already! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tierwestah Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 I can echo what Jax said but I would've also mentioned the reason why that some people on here would much rather the focus be put on their own neighborhood rather than downtown. It seems that they only care about their neighborhood and don't see why so much $ is spent downtown just because THEY never have a reason to go dt. Forgetting the fact that downtown is the birthplace and centerpiece of Houston. Judging the core of the city seems to be one of the first points that visitors see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 People who live close to downtown would shop downtown. People who visit Houston and stay downtown would shop downtown. People who work downtown would shop downtown. Students who study near downtown would shop downtown. Etc.homeless people shop would shop downtown. people who head in on memorial would shop downtown. people who go to jury duty would shop downtown. people who get off the bus would shop downtown. people who ride their bikes would shop downtown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jax Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 (edited) It seems that they only care about their neighborhood and don't see why so much $ is spent downtown just because THEY never have a reason to go dt. Forgetting the fact that downtown is the birthplace and centerpiece of Houston. I think it is a big problem that most people only care about themselves (or their immediate vicinity) and the present. I even heard somebody say on HAIF the other day "why would I care about something that I can't see the result of during my lifetime". I think that's really sad. In some ways it's kind of annoying how Houston's city limits are so large, because you have people who live 20 miles outside the loop influencing decisions on issues that only really affect people in the inner parts of the city. Edited May 23, 2008 by Jax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 I think it is a big problem that most people only care about themselveskinda like this?I for one would prefer to shop downtown instead of the Rice Village Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jax Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 No, not kinda like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-Town Man Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Can we describe the set of people who want more retail downtown? Are they people who live downtown? Work downtown? Visit conventions?I spend very little time downtown. I've lived and worked in Houston for over 40 years and less than one of those years was spent working downtown. When I was there I didn't feel a need to go shopping, except once when I got to work and realized I had forgotten to put on a belt. The lady at Macy's said they sell a lot of belts to people in that situation.I'm not in any of those three groups, and many people I know who would like to see more street life downtown aren't. I think it's people from a lot of different walks of life, not any one set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memebag Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 I'm not in any of those three groups, and many people I know who would like to see more street life downtown aren't. I think it's people from a lot of different walks of life, not any one set.Are the people who want more retail downtown the same people who would use that retail? Or are they people who will feel better just knowing it's there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wernicke Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 (edited) This thread has become a joke over the past few days.I... I... I... Me... Me... Me...I don't want any new development DT because I never go DT and no one I know goes DT... that is the dumbest argument in history against development. Kind of like the I would never use rail so why should they build rail comments. Edited May 23, 2008 by wernicke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memebag Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 This thread has become a joke over the past few days.I... I... I... Me... Me... Me...I don't want any new development DT because I never go DT and no one I know goes DT... that is the dumbest argument in history against development. Kind of like the I would never use rail so why should they build rail comments.I haven't seen anyone make an argument like that. Are you missing the part about the city subsidizing the new downtown mall? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wernicke Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 I haven't seen anyone make an argument like that. Are you missing the part about the city subsidizing the new downtown mall?Yea... I was the one who posted the exact figures several days ago: 8.8 mil from the city, 5.5 mil from Harris County (out of nearly 200 mil total for the project)... do you really think the increased tax receipts from this development and future development spurred by the project will not eventually compensate for this investment? Seems like a basic cost-benefit analysis to me, and I would side with the city's decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memebag Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 ... do you really think the increased tax receipts from this development and future development spurred by the project will not eventually compensate for this investment?Only if the project shows a profit for its backers. That should be their risk, not mine. And if the city gets its money back in tax receipts, it would have gotten more without the subsidy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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