GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[pm91]

">

">

">

">

">

">

">

[tierwestah]

and supposedly III Forks (which was set to replace Lawry's Steakhouse) has backed out.

Where did you hear this?

[lockmat]

I can't believe they only went 7 stories for the office component. Even in a slow market, 7 stories for downtown, really?!

They easily could have gone 15 or at the least 10, but 7?! Think about that. Pretty lame-o

[UrbaNerd]

I can't believe they only went 7 stories for the office component. Even in a slow market, 7 stories for downtown, really?!

They easily could have gone 15 or at the least 10, but 7?! Think about that. Pretty lame-o

Each segment seems to be approximately two floors, actually, if the scaling of the window workers is correct.

[Houston19514]

Each segment seems to be approximately two floors, actually, if the scaling of the window workers is correct.

Yeah, I think it's something like 11 or 12 stories.

[jfre81]

I can't believe they only went 7 stories for the office component. Even in a slow market, 7 stories for downtown, really?!

They easily could have gone 15 or at the least 10, but 7?! Think about that. Pretty lame-o

Well to be fair I wasn't expecting this to turn the Houston skyline into Dubai or anything....it's indeed closer to 10 though.

[wernicke]

Well to be fair I wasn't expecting this to turn the Houston skyline into Dubai or anything....it's indeed closer to 10 though.

If you check out this office leasing plan it looks like it is 11 stories.

The developer's stated reason for not going bigger with the office building, and including the residential, was parking space requirements that could not be met.

[N Judah]

Argh, is there any direct way to get rid of those parking requirements? ie a referendum or something that we can all just vote on?

[lockmat]

Argh, is there any direct way to get rid of those parking requirements? ie a referendum or something that we can all just vote on?

My guess that it's pretty much impossible to not have a garage when building commercial scrapers.

[Houston19514]

Argh, is there any direct way to get rid of those parking requirements? ie a referendum or something that we can all just vote on?

I don't think he's talking about building code or legal requirements for parking. I think he's just talking about "market" requirements, i.e., you either have parking available or you don't lease out your office/retail/apartment space.

[jc281]

3forks is out? BIG bummer

[Trae]

Just a small rumor.

[memebag]

3forks is out? BIG bummer

Yeah, there goes Houston's vibrancy. It's too bad this town doesn't have any $50 steak places.

[N Judah]

I don't think he's talking about building code or legal requirements for parking. I think he's just talking about "market" requirements, i.e., you either have parking available or you don't lease out your office/retail/apartment space.

Darnit, if that's in fact the case, then what's the point of the whole no-zoning thing if the free market can't step up and provide parking garages when and where we need them? Ah well...

[TheNiche]

Darnit, if that's in fact the case, then what's the point of the whole no-zoning thing if the free market can't step up and provide parking garages when and where we need them? Ah well...

The free market and Houston Pavilions don't have a great deal to do with one another, remember. The idea was to spend lots and lots of money to satiate the impatient masses who so desperately wanted to waste three blocks of unbounded opportunity (in the form of parking lots) on a pathetic little island of yuppie retail.

It isn't common to find so many adjacent blocks of well-located downtown land under one owner; had the City not paid someone to do something with them when the market was down, we'd have probably had a much better opportunity available to us in the present to not only get the retail but the hotel and a larger office component along with structured parking.

[dbigtex56]

Argh, is there any direct way to get rid of those parking requirements? ie a referendum or something that we can all just vote on?

I don't think he's talking about building code or legal requirements for parking. I think he's just talking about "market" requirements, i.e., you either have parking available or you don't lease out your office/retail/apartment space.

Darnit, if that's in fact the case, then what's the point of the whole no-zoning thing if the free market can't step up and provide parking garages when and where we need them? Ah well...

I'm of the impression that the city requires a certain number of parking spaces to be provided in realtion to the square footage of any new commercial construction. If I'm mistaken, someone please correct me. If not, this well-intentioned ordinance has doomed us to the building patterns of a half century ago.

And please don't buy into this whole 'free market' myth. There isn't - and shouldn't be - any such thing.

[JWW]

I'm of the impression that the city requires a certain number of parking spaces to be provided in realtion to the square footage of any new commercial construction. If I'm mistaken, someone please correct me. If not, this well-intentioned ordinance has doomed us to the building patterns of a half century ago.

And please don't buy into this whole 'free market' myth. There isn't - and shouldn't be - any such thing.

Municipalities generally have parking space requirements that differ for the type of development; hotel, office building, retail, (i presume apartment?), etc., will differ. Requirements can break down as simply as "2 parking spots per hotel room unit".

Not totally following the "please don't buy into this whole 'free market' myth. There isn't - and shouldn't be - any such thing." But besides the parking requirements from a muni., the developer obviously has to judge what the market (free) will bear regarding parking.

[totheskies]

The free market and Houston Pavilions don't have a great deal to do with one another, remember. The idea was to spend lots and lots of money to satiate the impatient masses who so desperately wanted to waste three blocks of unbounded opportunity (in the form of parking lots) on a pathetic little island of yuppie retail.

It isn't common to find so many adjacent blocks of well-located downtown land under one owner; had the City not paid someone to do something with them when the market was down, we'd have probably had a much better opportunity available to us in the present to not only get the retail but the hotel and a larger office component along with structured parking.

I'm still trying to figure out why this project is so "bad"? Please check out the Kansas City Power & Light district and it's "yuppie retail". It is (surprise!) many of the same things that are coming to Houston Pavillions. And it's been a rousing succes so far. Among adults in the 20-35 bracket, these types of development are the big money-makers. Especially when you consider that midtown is rapidly filling in with the same age range, I would say that Houston has a great opportunity in HP. Could it be better? Of course. But last time I visited downtown, it looked like there were plenty of surface parking lots still in tact (and thus more potential for a "better" development). As long as our local economy keeps tipping along (or at least stays afloat) HP will open the door for cooler projects down the road.

[HtownWxBoy]

I'm still trying to figure out why this project is so "bad"? Please check out the Kansas City Power & Light district and it's "yuppie retail". It is (surprise!) many of the same things that are coming to Houston Pavillions. And it's been a rousing succes so far. Among adults in the 20-35 bracket, these types of development are the big money-makers. Especially when you consider that midtown is rapidly filling in with the same age range, I would say that Houston has a great opportunity in HP. Could it be better? Of course. But last time I visited downtown, it looked like there were plenty of surface parking lots still in tact (and thus more potential for a "better" development). As long as our local economy keeps tipping along (or at least stays afloat) HP will open the door for cooler projects down the road.

It's not that bad... some people just need to complain... they will always find something to cry about. I am very excited about HP!

[713 To 214]

I'm still trying to figure out why this project is so "bad"? Please check out the Kansas City Power & Light district and it's "yuppie retail". It is (surprise!) many of the same things that are coming to Houston Pavillions.

You actually think comparing Houston to KC is a good thing?

[Trae]

You actually think comparing Houston to KC is a good thing?

What is wrong with comparing similar developments in each cities Downtowns? Dallas could take a page out of KC's Power and Lights District, too. Both cities could also look at Denver.

[CHiPs]

What is wrong with comparing similar developments in each cities Downtowns? Dallas could take a page out of KC's Power and Lights District, too. Both cities could also look at Denver.

I'm excited about HP...not too fond of the architecture, looks too "plain", can't reallt tell it's there til you're in DT...but given the space it has I think it will be successful...Denver Pavilions look amazing...Will there be open spaces to walk through the retail shops?...similar to the Marq E.

[HtownWxBoy]

I'm excited about HP...not too fond of the architecture, looks too "plain", can't reallt tell it's there til you're in DT...but given the space it has I think it will be successful...Denver Pavilions look amazing...Will there be open spaces to walk through the retail shops?...similar to the Marq E.

Yes.

[C2H]

I'm with tierwestah, how can we confirm this to be true about III forks being out. There was no source or anything explaing about the backout of 3 forks. Just an HAIFer's arbitrary claim.

Even if 3 forks is out, that'll make more way for hopefully fewer restaurants and more retail or entertainment. How bout a arcade?

[swtsig]

I'm with tierwestah, how can we confirm this to be true about III forks being out. There was no source or anything explaing about the backout of 3 forks. Just an HAIFer's arbitrary claim.

Even if 3 forks is out, that'll make more way for hopefully fewer restaurants and more retail or entertainment. How bout a arcade?

simply passing along what i was told... take it or leave it.

[TheNiche]

I'm still trying to figure out why this project is so "bad"? Please check out the Kansas City Power & Light district and it's "yuppie retail". It is (surprise!) many of the same things that are coming to Houston Pavillions. And it's been a rousing succes so far. Among adults in the 20-35 bracket, these types of development are the big money-makers. Especially when you consider that midtown is rapidly filling in with the same age range, I would say that Houston has a great opportunity in HP. Could it be better? Of course. But last time I visited downtown, it looked like there were plenty of surface parking lots still in tact (and thus more potential for a "better" development). As long as our local economy keeps tipping along (or at least stays afloat) HP will open the door for cooler projects down the road.

Which adults in the 20-35 bracket? Are they from Gulfton? No. Are they from Spring? No. Are they from Pasadena? Kashmere? An decrepit apartment plaguing Inwood Forest? No, no, no. I say that it is a yuppie playground precisely because it fits the young 20-35 bracket, but mostly because of the customers' household buying power and consumption patterns, their level of educational attainment, and other factors that feed into my intuitive psychographic profile of what constitutes a 'yuppie'.

Mayor White made it clear in no uncertain terms that he would never endorse subsidies for downtown housing built to serve wealthy people. But he does endorse subsidies for retail that caters almost exclusively to the upper class...apparently it isn't immoral so long as po' people are able to walk around (somewhat) freely amongst the yuppie masses and see what they can't afford...or occasionally blow their money on an expensive impulse.

As long as our local economy keeps tipping along (or at least stays afloat) HP will open the door for cooler projects down the road.

Hey, I'm only annoyed at the opportunity cost of such a teriffic and irreplacable site. HP is totally out of scale with the rest of downtown. It should've been so much more...if only the City had been more patient.

[TheNiche]

It's not that bad... some people just need to complain... they will always find something to cry about. I am very excited about HP!

Some people look upon a parking lot with contempt. They exist in and for the present; if it does not benefit them--and directly--it is hurting them. It is a false bifurcation.

I see buildings, skyscrapers of every shape and function. I reject the very notion of 'present'. I see only opportunity. I live for the totality of existence, an existence that is not perceived but for the tiniest fraction of a second after the future has come to pass, and therefore I exist wholly for the future. A vacant site is not a puzzle to be solved. It does not require my intervention. And the outcome need not please me; the moment I ask someone to sacrifice their future for mine is the moment that I set a deadly precedent, for what will become of me when my karmic debt comes due? And in what currency shall it be paid?

[/endrant]

[ricco67]

Some people look upon a parking lot with contempt. They exist in and for the present; if it does not benefit them--and directly--it is hurting them. It is a false bifurcation.

I see buildings, skyscrapers of every shape and function. I reject the very notion of 'present'. I see only opportunity. I live for the totality of existence, an existence that is not perceived but for the tiniest fraction of a second after the future has come to pass, and therefore I exist wholly for the future. A vacant site is not a puzzle to be solved. It does not require my intervention. And the outcome need not please me; the moment I ask someone to sacrifice their future for mine is the moment that I set a deadly precedent, for what will become of me when my karmic debt comes due? And in what currency shall it be paid?

[/endrant]

You know, what I don't understand is why can't they have some sort of configuration where they (HP) can let customers access nearby garages. This could have easily worked for at least the Hotel (Valet parking, anyone?) portion of the project if they built it. Most of the business for HP will be after 5pm, why not utilize that empty space and make a bit of a profit? it's not like HP's garage is going to be free.

[RedScare]

Not sure what you are asking, ricco. HP IS working a deal for a nearby garage. They have not built one. They leased the existing garage south of HP. I would also point out that City ordinance prohibits double use of the same parking spaces. Since HP will be open for lunch, the spaces would be double use during the day.

Niche, you take the complaints about garages far too literally. These complaints largely arise from the perceived goals of the new urbanist. Note that I said "perceived", as I doubt most of the complaints here come from those who have seriously studied new urbanism. The complaints arise from an ideal, one that cannot be achieved under Houston's current structure. A development like HP, which will be open until 2 am, needs customers to survive. Ideally, those customers would come from the surrounding neighborhood by foot. But, there are few neighbors, at least within walking distance. Mass transit could produce more customers. But, the transit system is largely shut down by 2 am. A developer who spent $200 million on his project cannot give up several hours of business per day for years or decades waiting for the day that the transit system can deliver the volume of customers he needs. So he builds a parking garage to accomodate his driving customers. Makes perfect business sense.

But, the urban posters are not interested in this common sense reality. Their urban bona fides require them to rail against anything that does not comport with their limited grasp of new urbanist principles. So, ANY accomodation of the automobile must be condemned, even though it is a garage, as opposed to a surface lot, and even though the new development would not even be built without it. Further, EVERY new development must be condemned if it is not "mixed use" with ground floor retail", even though most ground floor retail in similar settings....i.e., Dallas....sits empty. The fact that a retail development with a parking garage across the street from an apartment building is every bit as walkable and urban as a "mixed use" development is lost on them, because they are parrotting phrases they read on some other forum, without reading the theory behind the term or phrase.

It is annoying, but there is little you can do about it. Even explaining it will sail over their heads. Best to nod and agree that a "mixed use" development would go great on that block, and that parking garage is ugly and Houston should outlaw them. Much easier that way.

[ricco67]

Not sure what you are asking, ricco. HP IS working a deal for a nearby garage. They have not built one. They leased the existing garage south of HP. I would also point out that City ordinance prohibits double use of the same parking spaces. Since HP will be open for lunch, the spaces would be double use during the day.

Niche, you take the complaints about garages far too literally. These complaints largely arise from the perceived goals of the new urbanist. Note that I said "perceived", as I doubt most of the complaints here come from those who have seriously studied new urbanism. The complaints arise from an ideal, one that cannot be achieved under Houston's current structure. A development like HP, which will be open until 2 am, needs customers to survive. Ideally, those customers would come from the surrounding neighborhood by foot. But, there are few neighbors, at least within walking distance. Mass transit could produce more customers. But, the transit system is largely shut down by 2 am. A developer who spent $200 million on his project cannot give up several hours of business per day for years or decades waiting for the day that the transit system can deliver the volume of customers he needs. So he builds a parking garage to accomodate his driving customers. Makes perfect business sense.

But, the urban posters are not interested in this common sense reality. Their urban bona fides require them to rail against anything that does not comport with their limited grasp of new urbanist principles. So, ANY accomodation of the automobile must be condemned, even though it is a garage, as opposed to a surface lot, and even though the new development would not even be built without it. Further, EVERY new development must be condemned if it is not "mixed use" with ground floor retail", even though most ground floor retail in similar settings....i.e., Dallas....sits empty. The fact that a retail development with a parking garage across the street from an apartment building is every bit as walkable and urban as a "mixed use" development is lost on them, because they are parrotting phrases they read on some other forum, without reading the theory behind the term or phrase.

It is annoying, but there is little you can do about it. Even explaining it will sail over their heads. Best to nod and agree that a "mixed use" development would go great on that block, and that parking garage is ugly and Houston should outlaw them. Much easier that way.

Well,I'm just saying that if the parking capacity ordinance MIGHT be worked around, but as usual, you broke through my little attempt at finding a different solution.

The idea came to me when I noticed that Hilton Americas, Four seasons, and Marriott Courtyard all offer parking to people not staying at the hotel to park on their premises when there is abundant parking.