GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[102IAHexpress]

2 hours ago, bobruss said:

I don't think I ever said I was for a taxpayer funded retail district. What I was alluding to is the fact that as long as they just add retail in the tunnels it doesn't really help the community downtown grow and provide a viable place to shop. If you need just about anything after dark you are forced to get in your car and drive to the Montrose area. I lived downtown for 7 years and was forced to get in my car for everything. I want people who would like to live close to their jobs and the entertainment they enjoy to be able to go out their doors and walk a few blocks and pick up what they need. The more people who choose to live this lifestyle will help Houston with its transportation issues. It will take cars off the streets and promote a healthier life style. It will create less CO2 and improve the overall downtown experience for everyone who uses it.

When you're trying to develop a new culture which is downtown living, something that has never been successful in Houston sometimes you need to help it along. If it takes a little help from tax relief I sure don't mind because the more of those people walking around downtown shopping eating and living are adding money to the tax base, and something you never really address in your arguments is the fact that the improvements lead to higher tax returns. I'm sure 609 Main, BG Place, and Hilcorp have added many more dollars to the tax roles and the reason those three were developed where they were was because of the rail. Nothing good comes without a little sacrifice and out of these tax incentives the city has created a new tax base of residents for the long haul.

 

It's almost as if you know nothing about downtown Houston. Have you ever seen photos of Downtown Houston from a 100 years ago? Search them on chron.com they are very informative. Houstonians were living, working, eating, shopping, walking in Downtown over a hundred years ago. How can you claim that type of living has never been successful in Houston? Houston has its beginnings in downtown living. However, with time the needs and wants of Houstonians changed and they moved out from downtown. The citizenry spoke with their feet and moved out. But If today, citizens want to move back in to downtown they are free to do so (i did), however I'm not sure the city should use taxpayer dollars to encourage that behavior at the expense of other priorities.

[bobruss]

Now your beginning to piss me off. Ive lived in Houston since 1954. I spent quite a bit of my early life shopping eating and going to movies on Main street. my father played drums and sang in the big bands that used to play in the Rice hotel, the Petroleum club, the Cork Club when the Shamrock opened. Ive seem m7y share of early Houston. I would go downtown with my dad and watch him set uphill drums and then we would walk down Main to the original James coney island. I'd go to movies at the Majestic and the Loews and afterwards have ice cream from the store next door. Sometimes we'd go to Simpsons diner which was an old fashioned diner on Main about where the First city lobby was eventually built.

I'm talking about Hpuston since the sixties. 

The reason they moved out was because of low cost housing in Sharpstown great schools in Spring Branch and Bellaire, freeways and big yards and new schools. White flight and all of those accompanying things

Don't try to tell me about early Houston. I lived it. You are just full of it and you are a conservative blowhard that I will never see eye to eye with.

Fix Chicago and don't try to tell us what to do. You obviously left it to us so have fun up there during those cold windy nights in January and take the L or whatever its called and eat your dogs at the Wrigley and I'll pay my taxes and worry about it later. Im for growth downtown and if it takes some support so what. Ive seem millions of dollars go for much worse things.

[102IAHexpress]

1 hour ago, bobruss said:

Now your beginning to piss me off. Ive lived in Houston since 1954. I spent quite a bit of my early life shopping eating and going to movies on Main street. my father played drums and sang in the big bands that used to play in the Rice hotel, the Petroleum club, the Cork Club when the Shamrock opened. Ive seem m7y share of early Houston. I would go downtown with my dad and watch him set uphill drums and then we would walk down Main to the original James coney island. I'd go to movies at the Majestic and the Loews and afterwards have ice cream from the store next door. Sometimes we'd go to Simpsons diner which was an old fashioned diner on Main about where the First city lobby was eventually built.

I'm talking about Hpuston since the sixties. 

The reason they moved out was because of low cost housing in Sharpstown great schools in Spring Branch and Bellaire, freeways and big yards and new schools. White flight and all of those accompanying things

Don't try to tell me about early Houston. I lived it. You are just full of it and you are a conservative blowhard that I will never see eye to eye with.

Fix Chicago and don't try to tell us what to do. You obviously left it to us so have fun up there during those cold windy nights in January and take the L or whatever its called and eat your dogs at the Wrigley and I'll pay my taxes and worry about it later. Im for growth downtown and if it takes some support so what. Ive seem millions of dollars go for much worse things.

 

Your analysis and conclusions are wrong again. Don't conflate Mid and late 20th century flight from the inner loop to Houston's suburbs with downtown Houston's downward spiral of population loss that started in the early 20th century. People were leaving downtown for the Hieghts and Montrose long before they left to car centered suburbs in the 1960s. 

 

[KinkaidAlum]

Were people really leaving for Montrose and the Heights or was  the city just growing like wildfire? I don't think you realize just how small Houston was in the early 20th century. It basically DOUBLED in population between 1900 and 1910. It did so again between 1910 and 1920. It more than doubled between 1920 and 1930.

 

There was no space to put people downtown in those years unless you built UP but high rise residential living wasn't really even a thing. 

[cspwal]

Also with the building moritorium inbthe 70s, the new places to live were outside the loop, so retail followed the people

[Sunstar]

I personally think the retail will come downtown, but like the residential boom it's going to take incentives to retailers to make it economically feasible.

Downtown is too under served in this regard for there not to be an uptick at some point, especially as new residential units come online.

[102IAHexpress]

On 5/26/2017 at 9:27 PM, KinkaidAlum said:

Were people really leaving for Montrose and the Heights or was  the city just growing like wildfire? I don't think you realize just how small Houston was in the early 20th century. It basically DOUBLED in population between 1900 and 1910. It did so again between 1910 and 1920. It more than doubled between 1920 and 1930.

 

There was no space to put people downtown in those years unless you built UP but high rise residential living wasn't really even a thing. 

 

I am aware of the population stats: http://www.houstontx.gov/planning/Demographics/docs_pdfs/Cy/hist_pop_1900_2017.pdf

 

And I agree that high rise living was not wide spread, however very dense low rise tenements were common place in Galveston and Houston.  People probably wanted to just spread out and live more comfortably; downtown houstonians found that comfort north of buffalo bayou.

 

[UtterlyUrban]

6 hours ago, Sunstar said:

I personally think the retail will come downtown, but like the residential boom it's going to take incentives to retailers to make it economically feasible.

Downtown is too under served in this regard for there not to be an uptick at some point, especially as new residential units come online.

I do hope that you are correct.

 

however, in 1 square mile in downtown, we already have 100,000 "high wage office workers" who commute in daily.  We also have, what?,  20,000-50,00 "affluent" consumers within a few mile radius.  But, nothing except retail crickets...........

 

While I hope that you are correct -- i REALLY hope you are  -- personally I now believe that downtown will be an "entertainment" destination, not supported by dry goods retail for many, many more years.  Gosh, I hope that i am wrong but I just don't see that it is going to happen.

Edited May 28, 2017 by UtterlyUrban

[hindesky]

Some stone is starting to appear around the entrance area.

[quietstorm]

8 hours ago, UtterlyUrban said:

I do hope that you are correct.

 

however, in 1 square mile in downtown, we already have 100,000 "high wage office workers" who commute in daily.  We also have, what?,  20,000-50,00 "affluent" consumers within a few mile radius.  But, nothing except retail crickets...........

 

While I hope that you are correct -- i REALLY hope you are  -- personally I now believe that downtown will be an "entertainment" destination, not supported by dry goods retail for many, many more years.  Gosh, I hope that i am wrong but I just don't see that it is going to happen.

I actually think it will be ok if downtown Houston doesn't develop significant retail.  What I've found that distinguishes Houston from places like NYC, Chicago and SF in terms of retail is our lack of public transportation and street grid in our retail district (Uptown). My visitors mistakenly think 'Uptown' (Galleria Area) is Houston's CBD. In my view, the Galleria Area is similar to 5th Ave, Michigan Ave, or Union Square in terms of retail options. If downtown develops into a significant entertainment district to compliment the growing residential and existing corporate sector and developed better transit options to Uptown that would be something. While the Galleria itself is certainly 'walkable', the greater Uptown district has a ways to go in terms of overall mobility and access.

[UtterlyUrban]

Looking at the May 17th posts here and the PDF contained  in them, is it fair to assume that greenstreet is essentially now being marketed as an office concept that contains restaraunts and a hotel?  There seems to be no effort to attract non-food/entertainment retail in that brochure?

 

wasnt the entire point of selecting Dallas as the new "retail corridor" (and spending millions of tax dollars) to leverage Greenstreet (among others) as a retail location?

 

Has midway now formally moved in a different direction?

[Tumbleweed_Tx]

retail isn't working there. F21 is doing ok, BCBG closed, Books A Million closed. A shoe store only lasted 6 months.

Gatorade had a temporary gym for the super bowl. That's pretty much it for retail there.

[Houston19514]

On 5/29/2017 at 6:42 AM, UtterlyUrban said:

Looking at the May 17th posts here and the PDF contained  in them, is it fair to assume that greenstreet is essentially now being marketed as an office concept that contains restaraunts and a hotel?  There seems to be no effort to attract non-food/entertainment retail in that brochure?

 

wasnt the entire point of selecting Dallas as the new "retail corridor" (and spending millions of tax dollars) to leverage Greenstreet (among others) as a retail location?

 

Has midway now formally moved in a different direction?

 

You were apparently looking at their office concept leasing brochure.  Here is their  general leasing brochure.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Houston19514

[samagon]

I think it's dreadfully ironic that the guy that has been arguing about how bad fixed guideway mass transit is for Houston is referencing how great downtown Houston was when there was fixed guideway mass transit in Houston!  

[102IAHexpress]

Not sure if you are referencing me?  But I never said Downtown Houston was great or not great back then. If I did please point it out. I do think it was definitely booming economically which is great but I wouldn't call living in a packed tenement "great" either. On the totally of that era I have not made a judgement. I only even mentioned it because Bobruss made a claim without evidence that Houston has never had a culture of downtown living. I simply corrected him on that. Houston did have a culture of downtown living. Whether it was great, I don't know. However, you omitted the point I made about downtown Houston's downward spiral of population loss and Downtown Houstonian's exit for the Heights and Montrose.

[samagon]

moving to the Heights and Montrose was made possible by extension of the same electric trolley...

 

I think we can all agree that Downtown Houston hasn't had as many people on the streets since the 1970s and prior.

 

It's not just tax incentives, it's not just the stadiums and parks, it's not just the light rail, and it's not just the retail district on Dallas street. It's all of these things, and other factors that have nothing to do with anything the city is actively doing. At the end of the day, I'm okay with some of my tax money being used for these ventures.

 

I also hope that more of my taxes are used in this way.

 

Edited May 31, 2017 by samagon

[cspwal]

11 minutes ago, samagon said:

moving to the Heights and Montrose was made possible by extension of the same electric trolley...

 

I think we can all agree that Downtown Houston hasn't had as many people on the streets since the 1970s and prior.

 

It's not just tax incentives, it's not just the stadiums and parks, it's not just the light rail, and it's not just the retail district on Dallas street. It's all of these things, and other factors that have nothing to do with anything the city is actively doing. At the end of the day, I'm okay with some of my tax money being used for these ventures.

 

I also hope that more of my taxes are used in this way.

 

 

Bingo.  At the end of the day, that's what you're paying local taxes for - your city to provide services.  The difference between living in a small town and a big city is you get an active downtown as part of all this, so I'm also fine for my tax dollars to go to support the downtown infrastructure

[102IAHexpress]

1 hour ago, samagon said:

moving to the Heights and Montrose was made possible by extension of the same electric trolley...

 

 

 

You're giving way too much credit to Houston's original street cars. Do you have any evidence that early Houstonian's moving to the Heights and Montrose was possible only because the electric trolley? Or have you forgotten about the invention of mass produced automobiles?

[KinkaidAlum]

Houston Heights was founded in 1891.

It was incorporated in 1896.

 

Ford's Model T came in 1908. 10,000 were sold that year. No, not in Houston. Globally. 

 

But, yeah, the auto is what gave rise to The Heights. 

 

Now, Montrose was officially platted in 1911 so the auto might have had more to do with its growth but the initial developer HIGHLIGHTED the street car service along it's main boulevard. But, why pay attention to the actual first advertisements of the development?

[samagon]

Correct KinkaidAlum.

 

As well the Heights developer built their own streetcar line to connect to the overall system.

[102IAHexpress]

37 minutes ago, KinkaidAlum said:

Houston Heights was founded in 1891.

It was incorporated in 1896.

 

Ford's Model T came in 1908. 10,000 were sold that year. No, not in Houston. Globally. 

 

But, yeah, the auto is what gave rise to The Heights. 

 

Now, Montrose was officially platted in 1911 so the auto might have had more to do with its growth but the initial developer HIGHLIGHTED the street car service along it's main boulevard. But, why pay attention to the actual first advertisements of the development?

 

Not sure what ANY of that has to do with my post. I NEVER said downtown Houstonian's were leaving downtown for the Heights in 1891 or 1896. If i did please point it out.

 

However i did state that downtown Houston at one point in its history did have lots of people living there, but in time there was a downward spiral of population loss that started in the 1st quarter of the 20th century.

 

Also, I can also state mass produced automobile facts. Fact: Between 1913 and 1927, Ford factories produced more than 15 million Model Ts.

 

Also, like always people on this forum submit reply and read posts later.

 

I never said Houston's early streetcars deserved no credit. If I did please point it out. I only stated that Samagon's post incorrectly gave ALL the credit to Houston's streetcars. If instead Samagon would like to edit his post to say "moving to the Heights and Montrose was made possible in part by extension of the same electric trolley... " then I would have no problem with that statement. But i doubt he will edit it. And I doubt you will provide evidence that automobiles played no role in downtown Houstonians moving to the Heights and Montrose.

 

Also, you will concede I'm sure, that roads existed out in the Heights at the same time if not before street car lines were built to the Heights, correct?

 

 

[tigereye]

 

[Sanjorade]

Reading this forum is getting more and more trying with all the arguing.

[j_cuevas713]

I like it tbh

[j_cuevas713]

4 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

You're giving way too much credit to Houston's original street cars. Do you have any evidence that early Houstonian's moving to the Heights and Montrose was possible only because the electric trolley? Or have you forgotten about the invention of mass produced automobiles?

Actually it wasn't the automobile specifically that pushed people from the city core, it was White Flight. The car was an accessory to this movement but not the cause. 

[ADCS]

3 minutes ago, j_cuevas713 said:

Actually it wasn't the automobile specifically that pushed people from the city core, it was White Flight. The car was an accessory to this movement but not the cause. 

 

White flight wouldn't have happened without cars, freeways and subsidized 30 year notes.

[j_cuevas713]

Just now, ADCS said:

 

White flight wouldn't have happened without cars, freeways and subsidized 30 year notes.

So you're telling me if the car hadn't been produced, White Flight wouldn't have happened? I doubt it. It definitely helped push people further away from the core, but Houston was already experiencing a form of White Flight in it's early days. 

Edited May 31, 2017 by j_cuevas713

[ADCS]

10 minutes ago, j_cuevas713 said:

So you're telling me if the car hadn't been produced, White Flight wouldn't have happened? I doubt it. It definitely helped push people further away from the core, but Houston was already experiencing a form of White Flight in it's early days. 

 

Yep. You'd have redlining and neighborhood segregation like in Chicago, New York, Boston and Philadelphia around the turn of the last century, but you wouldn't have the mass exodus to newly manufactured suburbs with big, sprawly single-family houses if everyone was still relying on the trolley to get around, and no one could afford a house because 10-15 year mortgages were too expensive.

 

Edit: you also wouldn't have the leaded gasoline that led to the massive crime wave that convinced many/most white families to pack up and get on out of the city.

Edited May 31, 2017 by ADCS

[j_cuevas713]

Just now, ADCS said:

 

Yep. You'd have redlining and neighborhood segregation like in Chicago, New York, Boston and Philadelphia around the turn of the last century, but you wouldn't have the mass exodus to newly manufactured suburbs with big, sprawly single-family houses if everyone was still relying on the trolley to get around, and no one could afford a house because 10-15 year mortgages were too expensive.

True, good point. 

[102IAHexpress]

Getting closer to on topic. How concerned should Downtown be not just about retail but about lunch time restaurants? National consumer habits are not just shaking up traditional retail but also traditional restaurants.

 

Quote

The U.S. restaurant industry is in a funk. Blame it on lunch.

 

Americans made 433 million fewer trips to restaurants at lunchtime last year, resulting in roughly $3.2 billion in lost business for restaurants, according to market-research firm NPD Group Inc. It was the lowest level of lunch traffic in at least four decades.

While that loss in traffic is a 2% decline from 2015, it is a significant one-year drop for an industry that has traditionally relied on lunch and has had little or no growth for a decade.

 

“I put [restaurant] lunch right up there with fax machines and pay phones,” said Jim Parks, a 55-year-old sales director who used to dine out for lunch nearly every day but found in recent years that he no longer had room for it in his schedule.

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/going-out-for-lunch-is-a-dying-tradition-1496155377

 

If this trend continues can we expect to see restaurant closures in Downtown?