Downtown Tunnel Retail News & Updates

[new major on the block]

I like the tunnels. Its been maybe 2 years since I've been in them but I enjoyed walking through them. My only problem is that they weren't open later and were closed on the weekends. I think if only Houston had a subway system, they would be even better. It would be neat to take a subway train down to the galleria from the downtown tunnels. Oh well, wishful thinking aside, I still enjoy them.

[tomv]

That would be a good compromise, slowly converting the tunnels to primarily be pedestrian corridors, not underground malls. Keep the decor, the artwork, the lighting. Moving sidewalks, those long conveyor belts you see mainly at airports, would be a great addition. Can you imagine going 20 blocks in air conditioned comfort in minutes?

Whatever underground retail that remains or is added would be concentrated in clusters, with easy access to street level. Many stores and restaurants would be on two levels. Others would have at least a stairway down, like the CVS on Main street does now.

Someone else figure out how to make this all happen...

[Trae]

I wish it would happen. A subway would make so much better, too. Could you imagine going to Uptown from Downtown Houston, all underground?

[ricco67]

One (if not both) of the LRT routes that were proposed to go to the east side were planned on being a subway during downtown part of the route.

If memory serves me correct, they were going to use only one or two platforms and do a cross platform. Basically having multiple lines operating on a single platform. one of of the routes seemed like it would go off to washington before emerging outside of downtown. The washington route is merely idle talk for the moment since they were still trying to get the other lines up and running first.

If the subway route comes to fruition, it might be possible to connect it to the tunnels, but I'm sure on a limited basis.

[HtownWxBoy]

Highway6 said:

Comparing that wood model to the original renederings is depressing. Seems so much smaller with the diminished scope and fewer towers.

I'm guessing theres no plans to attach HP to the tunnel system, right ? Is this good ? I know you're trying to start a culture of street shopping instead of mole shopping... but the entire 3 blocks is street retail... wouldn't it be a good thing to have a link to the tunnels to draw people out (nearest connection would be First Tower garage) ?

Also, from the picture.. they've started structure on the lower block, no big amount of excavation needed since that block is only 3 levels. The middle block looks like they are excavating somewhat since thats where the tower will be but the wood model shows it about 10 stories, so obviously ya dont have to dig down too far.

I guess what strikes me is there is no underground parking planned ? I didnt realize this.

I know the residential component was canned for the amount of underground parking that would be needed.. but I didnt reazlize they werent including any now.... well, i don't know that for sure, but that is what the photo suggests to me... so far.

No plans that I know of to connect to the tunnel system... and I hope they don't! We need less tunnels downtown... not more! Tunnels just take away from the street life. As for parking, they will be leasing a parking garage next to HP so people can park there... correct?

[Highway6]

No plans that I know of to connect to the tunnel system... and I hope they don't! We need less tunnels downtown... not more! Tunnels just take away from the street life. As for parking, they will be leasing a parking garage next to HP so people can park there... correct?

I don't disagree with you on what tunnels have done. I just disagree on if having new access points are good or bad ?

There currently is only one place where you can access the tunnel system directly from the street without entering a building.

I think we need more.. but to it in such a way it draws people out of the tunnels.

I think having the tunnels connect to an active pedestrian node on the street would draw people out more than send people in.

People are going to use the tunnels regardless.. the tunnels are not going away.. If we want people to leave the tunnels, we need more direct street access...and we need that access at a pedestrian friendly point.. such as a Square or place with lots of street retail and activity.

On a side note: I think the parking lot bordered by Lousiana, Milam, Walker and McKinney would make a great place for such a node. Its surround by the tunnel system on all 4 sides. If that block would be made some sorrta outdoor gathering place.. maybe submerged halfway between street level and tunnel level, outdoor eateries, shaded.

The tunnels are closed at 6 anyways becasue they are privately owned.. having new street access isnt going to given reason for people not using it to use it. But all the people are down there now... You gotta give them reasons and points at which to leave, right ?

[Houston19514]

I don't disagree with you on what tunnels have done. I just disagree on if having new access points are good or bad ?

There currently is only one place where you can access the tunnel system directly from the street without entering a building.

I think we need more.. but to it in such a way it draws people out of the tunnels.

I think having the tunnels connect to an active pedestrian node on the street would draw people out more than send people in.

People are going to use the tunnels regardless.. the tunnels are not going away.. If we want people to leave the tunnels, we need more direct street access...and we need that access at a pedestrian friendly point.. such as a Square or place with lots of street retail and activity.

On a side note: I think the parking lot bordered by Lousiana, Milam, Walker and McKinney would make a great place for such a node. Its surround by the tunnel system on all 4 sides. If that block would be made some sorrta outdoor gathering place.. maybe submerged halfway between street level and tunnel level, outdoor eateries, shaded.

The tunnels are closed at 6 anyways becasue they are privately owned.. having new street access isnt going to given reason for people not using it to use it. But all the people are down there now... You gotta give them reasons and points at which to leave, right ?

I agree on having better connections between street and tunnels. And, I LOVE your idea for the L-M-W-M block. Awesome idea!

[ricco67]

I agree on having better connections between street and tunnels. And, I LOVE your idea for the L-M-W-M block. Awesome idea!

I disagree, if want easier access to and from the tunnels, why don't you just have a connections from the surface of Discovery Green on the surface and the garage?

At times I don't care for the tunnels, but I have to admit, it makes it easy to go from one side of Downtown to another without having to deal with traffic and go around the blocks themselves.

[bkjones98]

I disagree, if want easier access to and from the tunnels, why don't you just have a connections from the surface of Discovery Green on the surface and the garage?

At times I don't care for the tunnels, but I have to admit, it makes it easy to go from one side of Downtown to another without having to deal with traffic and go around the blocks themselves.

Obviously no one here has to wear a suit to work--in the summer. I mean, have you been around this place in August?

[RedScare]

Obviously no one here has to wear a suit to work--in the summer. I mean, have you been around this place in August?

Yes, I do....and, yes, I have.

I never use the tunnels, and I have never met anyone who refused to go somewhere downtown because they had to walk outside for a block...or, (gasp) even two. I suppose they exist (one apparently just posted on this thread), but the few that do exist probably do not justify the time and expense of a tunnel extension. If it is that much of a chore to walk across the street in Houston in August, I recommend that you patronize the tunnel. Yao can afford to do without your business.

Considering that the majority of business at the Pavillions will be after hours and weekends anyway, this is really a non-issue.

[RedScare]

Crescent & Finger want a skywalk.

The theory is that the suits that will live/shop there don't like walking outside in the heat, wind, and occasional rain, and that it will indeed keep them from walking across the street for many of their shopping/dining experiences.

Wow. There are more wimps in downtown than I thought. We need more escalators in front of our fitness centers, too.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I am going outside to finish building my fence. I hope I don't break a sweat.

Edited June 13, 2007 by RedScare

[bkjones98]

Yes, I do....and, yes, I have.

I never use the tunnels, and I have never met anyone who refused to go somewhere downtown because they had to walk outside for a block...or, (gasp) even two. I suppose they exist (one apparently just posted on this thread), but the few that do exist probably do not justify the time and expense of a tunnel extension. If it is that much of a chore to walk across the street in Houston in August, I recommend that you patronize the tunnel. Yao can afford to do without your business.

Considering that the majority of business at the Pavilions will be after hours and weekends anyway, this is really a non-issue.

Evidently you took my quip about the heat in August and a preference to walk in air conditioning personally. As a matter of fact, I could not care less if there is a tunnel extension. The comment about wearing a suit to work had nothing to do with your, or anyone else's, job; I

[Subdude]

I don't disagree with you on what tunnels have done. I just disagree on if having new access points are good or bad ?

There currently is only one place where you can access the tunnel system directly from the street without entering a building.

I think we need more.. but to it in such a way it draws people out of the tunnels.

I think having the tunnels connect to an active pedestrian node on the street would draw people out more than send people in.

People are going to use the tunnels regardless.. the tunnels are not going away.. If we want people to leave the tunnels, we need more direct street access...and we need that access at a pedestrian friendly point.. such as a Square or place with lots of street retail and activity.

On a side note: I think the parking lot bordered by Lousiana, Milam, Walker and McKinney would make a great place for such a node. Its surround by the tunnel system on all 4 sides. If that block would be made some sorrta outdoor gathering place.. maybe submerged halfway between street level and tunnel level, outdoor eateries, shaded.

The tunnels are closed at 6 anyways becasue they are privately owned.. having new street access isnt going to given reason for people not using it to use it. But all the people are down there now... You gotta give them reasons and points at which to leave, right ?

What is the one place you can access the tunnels now from the street? I'm drawing a blank on that.

It sounds nice in concept, but I suspect that most businesses in the tunnels would not want a public access point like you are describing. Part of the attraction of the tunnels is that they are a private, not a public environment, so not just anyone can wander in. I think most people vastly prefer tunnels for the security, air conditioning, lack of panhandlers, and convenience of not having to wait on traffic lights.

Crescent & Finger want a skywalk.

The theory is that the suits that will live/shop there don't like walking outside in the heat, wind, and occasional rain, and that it will indeed keep them from walking across the street for many of their shopping/dining experiences.

Makes sense to me. If a tunnel or skywalk connection will improve HP usage it would be a good idea. Is there any downside to the idea? The tunnel system is one of downtown's great amenities.

[Highway6]

What is the one place you can access the tunnels now from the street? I'm drawing a blank on that.

Good question.. not entirely sure.

That is just something I've heard many times and have read online.

I know somewhere around Tranquility Park there are stairs that go down to either the garage, tunnel, or both.. that could possibly be what is being referred to.

On this interactive map of the system...it shows all the access points. It's showing stairs, and stairs alone, where the tunnel crosses under Main between Walker and Mckinney. Most other acceess points are shown in the center of blocks and are more obviously associated with buildings... so I guess this could be it.

Maybe Jones Hall too..

EDIT : I'm told by a friend working down there that in addition to the public access at the civic/theatre garages that you can access the tunnels from the plaza outside the Wells Fargo bldg, without going through the lobby escaltors.

Edited June 14, 2007 by Highway6

[woolie]

I hate the tunnels, but I don't think the Skywalks are so bad. The TMC has plenty of skywalks but (few: 1 or 2) tunnels.

We usually walk on the street to have lunch, but if it's unbearably hot or raining we do take the skywalks. I think you need to have both good streets, but also make the concession that Houston is a mother____er in August and I don't want to walk 6 blocks completely in the heat.

[MyEvilTwin]

The entrance to the tunnels from the Continental Center I is at the end of a long hallway that juts out from the building, along the parking garage (but sticking out at the end by itself, way beyond the parking garage). It's kind of an odd arrangement, really, and I've always assumed it had something to do with the original plans to add a second tower to the property that never came to fruition (but if Brookshire goes ahead with its proposed new building...). As it is, it's like they built a hallway from the building to the tunnel entrance -- so while you could argue otherwise, I'd say this might qualify as a tunnel entrance that's not inside of a building.

[Houston19514]

The entrance to the tunnels from the Continental Center I is at the end of a long hallway that juts out from the building, along the parking garage (but sticking out at the end by itself, way beyond the parking garage). It's kind of an odd arrangement, really, and I've always assumed it had something to do with the original plans to add a second tower to the property that never came to fruition (but if Brookshire goes ahead with its proposed new building...). As it is, it's like they built a hallway from the building to the tunnel entrance -- so while you could argue otherwise, I'd say this might qualify as a tunnel entrance that's not inside of a building.

There are also tunnel entrances in the sunken plaza in front of Wells Fargo, and I believe at the city building that was formerly HL&P. There's also a direct entrance in the McKinney Place building, next to what used to be the doughnut shop.

[TxDave]

What is the one place you can access the tunnels now from the street? I'm drawing a blank on that.

There may not be many places where you can access the tunnels directly from the street, but that really does not matter much since you can get in through the public access to most buildings on the system. Granted that makes it a "business hours only" environment, but that's what the tunnels are.

Even if all of the tunnel level businesses were forced to street level, I am not sure it would work. The core office towers aren't really designed well for street level retail. And given the business services orientation of most tunnel tenants, I think many of them would probably have to be closed in the evenings and weekends anyway (you likely won't have many residents or other drop-in business along Smith or Louisiana outside office hours).

Having said that, I think Houston Pavilions really does need to be connected to the current system, whether by tunnel or skywalk. Since so many of its Houston Center neighbors have skywalks in that area of downtown, perhaps that should be the first approach, but why can't it be connected by both methods?

[RedScare]

There really is just no overwhelming (or even underwhelming) need for tunnel or skywalk access. A quick glance at the current tenant list shows most of the tenant mix to be evening and weekend draws. House of Blues will not have daytime events. Neither will Red Cat. Lucky Strike will not draw a lunch crowd. And, a person trying to decide between Yao's and the Subway in the tunnel is...well...just weird.

The obsession with the tunnels appears to be by those who do not work downtown. People use the tunnels because there are fast food eateries there. Those that prefer a less hectic lunch do not go to the tunnels. There is not a mindset that, "if it aint on the tunnel loop, I aint goin". HP is located within a few blocks of a large number of office towers and a rail stop. It is easily accessible above ground. Besides, the remarks about the weather are only talking about the worst 3 months. The other 9 months, the weather is good walking weather. Even on a rainy day, it is only a factor if it rains DURING lunch, a phenomenon that is relatively rare.

[HtownWxBoy]

We all want a dense, vibrant, pedestrian-filled Downtown... and one of the worst things you can do if you want that is keep people from the streets. The tunnels are obviously one of the main reasons, if not the main reason, Downtown almost always looks dead, even in the middle of a work day. Most of the people and a lot of the shops, restaurants, etc. are underground. Imagine if ALL of this was above ground every day... how different things would look. I realize it's nice to stay in the tunnels during our hot and humid summers... nobody likes to be all sweaty from just walking two blocks... but I just can't think of any other reason why tunnels should be Downtown. If it's raining, use an umbrella like they do in Seattle or New York City... if it's cold, wear a coat with gloves and a scarf like they do in Boston and Philly.

[RedScare]

There are tunnel termini at each of the 3 blocks north of HP...the tower adjacent to Saks, the tower in the block east of Saks, and a skywalk from Four Seasons to the parking garage north of House of Blues. The outdoor averse pedestrian would only need to cross Dallas Street from any of these 3 locations to enter Houston Pavillions.

The far, Far, FAR LARGER problem occurs once the Tunnel Rat reaches Houston Pavillions itself. Houston Pavillions is....OUTDOORS!

OH, NO! Run for the hills! HP is an OUTDOOR PAVILLION! What is a Houston Tunnel Rat to do????

Do we REALLY need a tunnel to an outdoor pavillion?

EDIT: Just to be clear, there ARE outdoor plazas with tunnel access. Here is an example...

However, other than those that park underneath this plaza, how many others use the tunnels to access it? More importantly, how many people would refuse to go to this plaza if there were not a stairwell from a tunnel to get to it?

Edited June 24, 2007 by RedScare

[TxDave]

There really is just no overwhelming (or even underwhelming) need for tunnel or skywalk access. A quick glance at the current tenant list shows most of the tenant mix to be evening and weekend draws. House of Blues will not have daytime events. Neither will Red Cat. Lucky Strike will not draw a lunch crowd. And, a person trying to decide between Yao's and the Subway in the tunnel is...well...just weird.

The obsession with the tunnels appears to be by those who do not work downtown. People use the tunnels because there are fast food eateries there. Those that prefer a less hectic lunch do not go to the tunnels. There is not a mindset that, "if it aint on the tunnel loop, I aint goin". HP is located within a few blocks of a large number of office towers and a rail stop. It is easily accessible above ground. Besides, the remarks about the weather are only talking about the worst 3 months. The other 9 months, the weather is good walking weather. Even on a rainy day, it is only a factor if it rains DURING lunch, a phenomenon that is relatively rare.

After all of this, you did successfully change my opinion.

When I worked downtown Houston, we used the potential viewing,

[Jax]

I find the tunnels kinda strange too. I personally hate being stuck in underground tunnels, and I especially hate it when I have to be underground for long periods of time in labs (at Rice and at McGill). A friend of mine from Moscow who recently lived in Toronto and Montreal was talking to me about the main thing that Houston is missing compared to the cities we are familiar with - people in the streets. The weird thing is that Montreal has an extensive tunnel system, probably larger than the one in Houston due to all the subway connections, and the weather is worse for most of the year (snow in November - April with Jan and Feb temperatures reaching 30 below freezing). Yet there are STILL more people in the streets. She said that when you walk in the tunnels in Houston during the work days (she now works for Shell), the crowds of people down there rival what you see in the streets in Montreal. So I guess what this means is that somebody really has to build something on the surface that will make it worth their while to get out of the tunnels here in Houston, just like they have in other cities.

I think that if people walk to school/work in -30 degrees C (because street level has so much to offer), that people could stand walking a few blocks under the Houston sun if there was something up there to make it worth their while. And it doesn't seem like it could be that hard. If the same amenities existed on the surface that you see in the tunnels, what would you chose? If you could sit in a cafe and watch people walking in the street and see the sky and have natural light or eat in a food court underground with no windows, which would you chose? It's just that there aren't enough options on the surface. There are some good restaurants downtown but not enough choices I guess. And they are more concentrated in one area of downtown. And I guess if the tunnels are really crowded, people feel more comfortable going where other people are. One of the nice things about walking in Montreal is you never feel alone. If there was a reason to go to the surface, more people would leave the tunnels. If more people were on the surface, more people would feel comfortable being on the surface.

One thing that is important about street level here in Texas though, is shade. What they really need is to keep the sidewalks covered either with awnings or trees. One of the worst parts about walking in Houston is that parking lots don't provide as much shade as buildings which are built up to the sidewalk.

Edited June 24, 2007 by Jax

[TheNiche]

We all want a dense, vibrant, pedestrian-filled Downtown... and one of the worst things you can do if you want that is keep people from the streets. The tunnels are obviously one of the main reasons, if not the main reason, Downtown almost always looks dead, even in the middle of a work day. Most of the people and a lot of the shops, restaurants, etc. are underground. Imagine if ALL of this was above ground every day... how different things would look.

Nah, that just makes me more likely to run over one.

Seriously though, I can't figure out what's so important about being able to see pedestrians walking around. It isn't as though the pedestrians don't exist, but given an option between using tunnels and using the streets, if they choose the tunnels, then that's clearly the preferred way to get around by foot. Now I don't know what it costs to build a tunnel, so I'm not really able to come up with a clear concept of the cost/benefit involved, but from where I stand, it seems pretty arrogant to actively discourage folks from doing things the way that they want to do them, all for some aesthetic ideal that would seem more important to downtown's visitors than to its users.

I realize it's nice to stay in the tunnels during our hot and humid summers... nobody likes to be all sweaty from just walking two blocks... but I just can't think of any other reason why tunnels should be Downtown. If it's raining, use an umbrella like they do in Seattle or New York City... if it's cold, wear a coat with gloves and a scarf like they do in Boston and Philly.

When its hot, and I'm downtown and I'm able to, I use tunnels. When it rains, I use tunnels. If it's cloudy and dark, I use tunnels. Pretty much the whole month of June, I use tunnels. If its cold, I use tunnels. If it's windy, especially in downtown where tall buildings turn streets into wind tunnels, I use the underground tunnels. Why would anyone want to subject themselves to that when there's an alternative is what I and most other folks can't figure out. ...and I just am not willing to carry around rain gear, an umbrella, a jacket, a hat, and a comb with me everywhere I go. I carry a wallet, keys, and a pen. That's it. Nothing more.

[KinkaidAlum]

When its hot, and I'm downtown and I'm able to, I use tunnels. When it rains, I use tunnels. If it's cloudy and dark, I use tunnels. Pretty much the whole month of June, I use tunnels. If its cold, I use tunnels. If it's windy, especially in downtown where tall buildings turn streets into wind tunnels, I use the underground tunnels. Why would anyone want to subject themselves to that when there's an alternative is what I and most other folks can't figure out. ...and I just am not willing to carry around rain gear, an umbrella, a jacket, a hat, and a comb with me everywhere I go. I carry a wallet, keys, and a pen. That's it. Nothing more.

You need to carry a comb if you walk outside?

Yikes. I am embarrassed for you.

One of the reasons people claim to use the tunnels is that they feel safer down there. Well, they'd feel safer in the streets if all of those law-abiding office moles were on the street level.

[TheNiche]

You need to carry a comb if you walk outside?

Yikes. I am embarrassed for you.

I have hair. I don't like gel. High winds are my enemy.

One of the reasons people claim to use the tunnels is that they feel safer down there. Well, they'd feel safer in the streets if all of those law-abiding office moles were on the street level.

Somehow I don't really buy that argument. And I know that you don't actually mean the literal application of the word "all", as though nobody would feel safe unless every last person were on the surface, but I've got to wonder what the threshold is before people start feeling safe. We may not have a whole lot of pedestrian movement on the surface, but there's enough that I don't think that most people would feel unsafe during daylight business hours. It only starts to feel unsafe after dark, and very few people are using the tunnels at that point...probably quite a few more on the street than underground, actually.

[RedScare]

When its hot, and I'm downtown and I'm able to, I use tunnels. When it rains, I use tunnels. If it's cloudy and dark, I use tunnels. Pretty much the whole month of June, I use tunnels. If its cold, I use tunnels. If it's windy, especially in downtown where tall buildings turn streets into wind tunnels, I use the underground tunnels. Why would anyone want to subject themselves to that when there's an alternative is what I and most other folks can't figure out. ...and I just am not willing to carry around rain gear, an umbrella, a jacket, a hat, and a comb with me everywhere I go. I carry a wallet, keys, and a pen. That's it. Nothing more.

Sorry to hear that your vanity forces you underground, but that's certainly your choice. But, my question is this...assuming that no tunnel access is built, will you refuse to go to HP? Do you know anyone that would?

I am not advocating against extending tunnel access to HP. Unlike some of the other posters who think that if no office workers are slogging down the sidewalk for their amusement that downtown is somehow not a downtown, I am only looking at this from the standpoint of HP. And frankly, not only do I think tunnels are a non-issue as far as patronage from office workers, but they are expensive to build, and as an owner, I would want pedestrian activity around my retail development, as it subconsciously draws others in.

[Jax]

I actually like the wind tunnel effect that the tall buildings create, it's better in Houston than other cities at least. It feels great especially in the summer when you walk from the hobby center back to the metro rail and it's hot out. And besides, it's not as bad as the wind tunnel effect in the north where it gets really cold. Montreal can feel damn cold when its already 30 degrees below zero and you have a strong wind blowing because of the buildings. I imagine NYC and Chicago would have the same problem. So the wind tunnel in Houston, in my opinion, is actually like outdoor air conditioning!

[TheNiche]

Sorry to hear that your vanity forces you underground, but that's certainly your choice. But, my question is this...assuming that no tunnel access is built, will you refuse to go to HP? Do you know anyone that would?

Frankly, I'll probably be in the category of people that refuse to go to HP (if I can help it) regardless of whether or not there are tunnels because the tenants do not appeal or are less convenient to me in a downtown location than they are elsewhere. Besides, me and yuppie shoppers, well we just don't mix very well. I prefer a more simple down-home experience. Likewise, I'd prefer not to really care about the shape of my hair, but it's not something I can't very well help because there are other people out there than do.

Btw, I really don't appreciate your high level of snarkiness on various threads just lately, Red. Might I ask what it was that crawled up your ass and died?

I am not advocating against extending tunnel access to HP. Unlike some of the other posters who think that if no office workers are slogging down the sidewalk for their amusement that downtown is somehow not a downtown, I am only looking at this from the standpoint of HP. And frankly, not only do I think tunnels are a non-issue as far as patronage from office workers, but they are expensive to build, and as an owner, I would want pedestrian activity around my retail development, as it subconsciously draws others in.

Just as you are not advocating against extending tunnel access to HP, I am not advocating for extending tunnel access to HP. Like I said, I really don't have a good concept of the costs involved, and frankly, my response to HtownWxBoy wasn't in any way focused on HP, but more upon downtown as a district.

Edited June 24, 2007 by TheNiche

[moni]

I actually like the wind tunnel effect that the tall buildings create, it's better in Houston than other cities at least. It feels great especially in the summer when you walk from the hobby center back to the metro rail and it's hot out. And besides, it's not as bad as the wind tunnel effect in the north where it gets really cold. Montreal can feel damn cold when its already 30 degrees below zero and you have a strong wind blowing because of the buildings. I imagine NYC and Chicago would have the same problem. So the wind tunnel in Houston, in my opinion, is actually like outdoor air conditioning!

To be honest Jax, I never experienced the "canyon effect" anywhere like downtown Houston. I am not a very large person and I have been downtown in Houston when it took 2 people to keep me upright. I guess I am a tunnel fan.