Downtown Tunnel Retail News & Updates

[kylejack]

As much as I enjoy the tunnel system in Houston, I wonder if they're really as useful as people claim them to be. Since the tunnels only operate during weekday business hours, that means that Houston CBD loses 60% of its retail after 7pm. The city's been working hard at revitalizing downtown, but a serious step would be to do one of two things...

a-- close the business components of the tunnels and move all the retail to surface level, or

b-- extend the operational hours for the tunnel system, and open more entry points to the street level.

With so much usable retail space, why not open the tunnels to the public?

Suggesting that the city should shut down the private tunnels is ridiculous. Those tunnels are owned by the respective buildings, and its their business whether they continue to operate. There are hundreds of businesses in the tunnels and they succeed because its convenient for people to walk around during lunch without having to move their car or deal with crossing streets.

As far as downtown losing its retail during the weekend, that has more to do with few people being downtown. If the demand was there it would be served. Its improving with things like Discovery Green and Pavilions. Those should help to increase demand.

[totheskies]

So is this whole thread here because you feel excluded from the tunnels? I have news for you. There's a lot of private property you are excluded from. Why not start a thread about the men's bathroom on the 5th floor of my office building? It's open after business hours, but you can't get in without a security card.

Nope... just pointing out that out of the 5.6 million people in Houston, only 200k (max) use the downtown tunnels on any regular basis. Yet the time when most Houstonians travel to downtown is outside of business hours... for Rockets and Astros games, to visit Disco G, or to go to the theater district. There are people downtown, but they only have acces to half of downtown's retail base. It's just not smart business for the city or the downtown workforce.

AGAIN I LIKE THE TUNNELS... what I don't like is how they encourage downtown's retail base to only operate during lunchtime and business hours. Houston's tunnels are one of the coolest things about the city.

Edited December 4, 2008 by totheskies

[memebag]

Nope... just pointing out that out of the 5.6 million people in Houston, only 200k (max) use the downtown tunnels on any regular basis. Yet the time when most Houstonians travel to downtown is outside of business hours... for Rockets and Astros games, to visit Disco G, or to go to the theater district. There are people downtown, but they only have acces to half of downtown's retail base. It's just not smart business for the city or the downtown workforce.

AGAIN I LIKE THE TUNNELS... what I don't like is how they encourage downtown's retail base to only operate during lunchtime and business hours. Houston's tunnels are one of the coolest things about the city.

But those tunnels don't discourage downtown retail from operating outside of business hours. Houstonians do. Any of those businesses would have chosen a location above ground if they thought that would make more money. It doesn't because downtown workers drive home after work.

[kylejack]

Nope... just pointing out that out of the 5.6 million people in Houston, only 200k (max) use the downtown tunnels on any regular basis. Yet the time when most Houstonians travel to downtown is outside of business hours... for Rockets and Astros games, to visit Disco G, or to go to the theater district. There are people downtown, but they only have acces to half of downtown's retail base. It's just not smart business for the city or the downtown workforce.

AGAIN I LIKE THE TUNNELS... what I don't like is how they encourage downtown's retail base to only operate during lunchtime and business hours. Houston's tunnels are one of the coolest things about the city.

If you like the tunnels, why would you suggest something insane like having the City of Houston shutting these *private property* tunnels down?

*WHY* do you think these businesses would be open if they were on the surface level? They would not be open. It would be a bunch of closed retail stores. If you want proof, just look at Houston Center. If there were enough demand, Park Shops at Houston Center would be open all the time. Have you ever been to the Cafe Express on Main Street downtown after 6 PM? Its deserted.

If the tunnels didn't exist, many of those businesses would go out of business, because the businesspeople who frequent them would bring their lunch or eat at restaurants in their own building.

[LTAWACS]

I saw get rid of them.

[Daniepwils]

I saw get rid of them.

Why would you say that? I don't think you can get rid of them now. Most people downtown would be pissed. I know I would. Have you ever had to walk in a suit in 100+ weather and humidity? -- It isn't fun.

[memebag]

Why would you say that? I don't think you can get rid of them now. Most people downtown would be pissed. I know I would. Have you ever had to walk in a suit in 100+ weather and humidity? -- It isn't fun.

You can't get rid of them. They are private property. That's like saying the BoA center should get rid of a hallway on the 7th floor.

[Daniepwils]

Dallas did somehow. Trying to force more businesses to the street. It ruined the tunnels there.

[memebag]

Dallas did somehow. Trying to force more businesses to the street. It ruined the tunnels there.

Not according to this thread. What are you talking about?

[LTAWACS]

You can't get rid of them. They are private property. That's like saying the BoA center should get rid of a hallway on the 7th floor.

I dont understand what you are saying.

If they are private property can we not just tax the hell out of them?

[kylejack]

I dont understand what you are saying.

If they are private property can we not just tax the hell out of them?

...? Tax only businesses that are subterranean? Well that seems like a pretty strange standard. Would a convenience store in a building's basement get charged this underground tax?

[memebag]

I dont understand what you are saying.

If they are private property can we not just tax the hell out of them?

Tax whom? The entity that owns the property? What are you talking about?

[Daniepwils]

Not according to this thread. What are you talking about?

Well Downtown Dallas retail is worse then Houston, has been for years. When I first went to work for my firm I worked in Dallas a bit. I remember a coworker telling me how they were trying to force the tunnel business to the street. The tunnels in Dallas for the most part are empty compared to Houston.

Edited December 5, 2008 by Daniepwils

[capnmcbarnacle]

...? Tax only businesses that are subterranean? Well that seems like a pretty strange standard. Would a convenience store in a building's basement get charged this underground tax?

I've always thought calling it the "tunnels" is a bit of a misnomer. The first time I took an out of towner there, who had been hearing about them, their reaction was "It's basically just businesses in the lobby basements," which it is. Obviously there are tunnels under the streets that the city gives permission for, but this is nothing more than lobby businesses that have moved downstairs. As has been noted, the "tunnels" are basically the building basements and they are paid for and maintained by the buildings.

[memebag]

Well Downtown Dallas retail is worse then Houston, has been for years. When I first went to work for my firm I worked in Dallas a bit. I remember a coworker telling me how they were trying to force the tunnel business to the street. The tunnels in Dallas for the most part are empty compared to Houston.

... and they still have little retail at street level. Thank you for proving my point.

[TxDave]

The tunnel system in Dallas has never been as extensive or well developed as in Houston. It has some small clusters that are not well connected (some only by basement hallways), whereas Houston's system is comprehensive, attractive, and user friendly.

It would be ideal to have all of the pedestrian activity exclusively at street level - the scene would be similar to many other major urban centers. However the climate in Texas makes this unrealistic during certain seasons and weather conditions. During Spring and Fall the streets would be very active, but if the tunnels are not accessible during the hot months or on rainy days, most people would likely just stay in their office, resulting in no activity whatsoever.

It seems a compromise would be an ideal solution. Encouraging many of the underground establishments to move upstairs would increase visibility of the business and its customers. Meanwhile, if the tunnels were better integrated with the street (e.g. outdoor entrances that provide access to the sidewalks), people would be encouraged to move between the two and access more street level establishments as they moved through downtown.

On nice days people could use the surface streets, but during bad weather they could use the tunnels to move about and emerge to the street once they reach their destination. At the same time downtown visitors and conventioneers would have visibility and access to the businesses that remain in the tunnels. The integration of the street level and underground activity should ultimately have a synergistic effect in the downtown area.

[Mark F. Barnes]

This has almost become laughable, when you start comparing The Houston Tunnel Complex to the Dallas tunnels. It's like comparing the NYC Subway system or the Chicago "EL" train to the kiddie choo choo that goes around Herman Zoo. It''s no comparison at all. The Houston Tunnel is highly functional and serves a great purpose to those that work downtown. If people have a problem with it, don't use it. But to those that love it, it provides a great service. If you work downtown for any length of time, and learn the system, it's a great asset, and to those that don't work downtown, it's just another thing to gripe and whine about. Let it go, it's here to stay, move on and go gripe about the never ending nightmare of the Katy Freeway.....................

[IronTiger]

I went to Dallas in 2006 and explored the downtown areas via the tunnels and skywalks. While somewhat depressing in the basement areas, it is very viable and convenient. The tunnels and skywalks even takes people to nearby hotels. One hotel was an upscale place...it was set up like a small mall in the concourse, with an ice rink (I'm pretty sure) and a few shops, including a donut shop where we bought apple fritters. I've never been to downtown Houston.

[memebag]

It seems a compromise would be an ideal solution. Encouraging many of the underground establishments to move upstairs would increase visibility of the business and its customers. Meanwhile, if the tunnels were better integrated with the street (e.g. outdoor entrances that provide access to the sidewalks), people would be encouraged to move between the two and access more street level establishments as they moved through downtown.

Again, the tunnels are private property. They can't be more "integrated with the street" than the rest of the office buildings for physical security reasons.

On nice days people could use the surface streets, but during bad weather they could use the tunnels to move about and emerge to the street once they reach their destination. At the same time downtown visitors and conventioneers would have visibility and access to the businesses that remain in the tunnels. The integration of the street level and underground activity should ultimately have a synergistic effect in the downtown area.

Would you let conventioneers wander around your house for the sake of synergistic effects?

[totheskies]

If you like the tunnels, why would you suggest something insane like having the City of Houston shutting these *private property* tunnels down?

*WHY* do you think these businesses would be open if they were on the surface level? They would not be open. It would be a bunch of closed retail stores. If you want proof, just look at Houston Center. If there were enough demand, Park Shops at Houston Center would be open all the time. Have you ever been to the Cafe Express on Main Street downtown after 6 PM? Its deserted.

If the tunnels didn't exist, many of those businesses would go out of business, because the businesspeople who frequent them would bring their lunch or eat at restaurants in their own building.

Please re-read my original post.

[totheskies]

... and they still have little retail at street level. Thank you for proving my point.

Retail in DTD follows the same patterns as Houston... most businesses close after business hours.

Again, I don't think you guys are actually visiting downtown after business hours. There are more people there than ever thanks to Discovery Green, and the interest it has spurred. More retail options would be welcome in downtown now. The 2010 census is going to reveal significant changes in Houston's central core, most noticeably a population increase. Now that more people live close to downtown, it is warranted that downtown needs more surface level retail, and can extend its operating hours.

[memebag]

Retail in DTD follows the same patterns as Houston... most businesses close after business hours.

Again, I don't think you guys are actually visiting downtown after business hours. There are more people there than ever thanks to Discovery Green, and the interest it has spurred. More retail options would be welcome in downtown now. The 2010 census is going to reveal significant changes in Houston's central core, most noticeably a population increase. Now that more people live close to downtown, it is warranted that downtown needs more surface level retail, and can extend its operating hours.

But that has nothing to do with the tunnels. Moving the retail out of the tunnels won't increase the amount of retail open after business hours. There are already street level businesses downtown that can't afford to stay open after business hours.

[moni]

Nope... just pointing out that out of the 5.6 million people in Houston, only 200k (max) use the downtown tunnels on any regular basis. Yet the time when most Houstonians travel to downtown is outside of business hours... for Rockets and Astros games, to visit Disco G, or to go to the theater district. There are people downtown, but they only have acces to half of downtown's retail base. It's just not smart business for the city or the downtown workforce.

AGAIN I LIKE THE TUNNELS... what I don't like is how they encourage downtown's retail base to only operate during lunchtime and business hours. Houston's tunnels are one of the coolest things about the city.

Please don't shout, we hear you.

[Daniepwils]

Retail in DTD follows the same patterns as Houston... most businesses close after business hours.

Again, I don't think you guys are actually visiting downtown after business hours. There are more people there than ever thanks to Discovery Green, and the interest it has spurred. More retail options would be welcome in downtown now. The 2010 census is going to reveal significant changes in Houston's central core, most noticeably a population increase. Now that more people live close to downtown, it is warranted that downtown needs more surface level retail, and can extend its operating hours.

Um where? I live and work downtown. There is not a significant amount of more people downtown after business hours (excluding the weekend). I would even say there are less people downtown now than 3-4 years ago. Main street is very empty with the exception of Sambuca/Flying Saucer area. HP might change this, but as of now it really isn't a "destination mall". As for the park itself, after hours on a regular day there are not many people at the park. Right now due to the ice rink there are more people.

[capnmcbarnacle]

One thing to consider is the type of retail that exists in the tunnels and whether there is any market for it after hours. It's not like the tunnels are full of great retail and restaurants. You tend to have the following businesses, many of which simply provide the opportunity to take care of errands away from home:

1. Dentists/Barbershops/Eyeglass shops & optometrists/watch and jewelry repair/dry cleaners -- won't be open after hours anyway.

2. Convenience stores -- Need a coke, candy, lotto ticket? Does DT need 50 of these moved to the sidewalk?

3. Stationary and office supply stores/corporate mug shots -- only office people need this stuff.

4. Gift shop/tchochkes/bad retail -- need a gift for the secretary, care for a scarf to match your dress, or a holiday sweater?

5. Restaurants/coffe places/smoothie bars -- they feed 200,000 people for lunch. How many can afford to stay open to feed 5,000 people after hours? Too much supply, not enough demand. How many Alonti Delis do we need after hours? How about 20?

Look, I'd like to see stuff on the sidewalk, but most of what is the in the tunnels doesn't translate to anything other than the office crowd that needs a quick bite or get their watch fixed.

Edited December 8, 2008 by capnmcbarnacle

[takeshi]

Please re-read my original post.

There's nothing in your original post that explains why moving businesses (that wouldn't be open after hours anyway) to street level or opening tunnels after hours would make any difference. Nor is there anything in your original post that explains why demand for existing street-level businesses is so low despite your claims that there is unsatisfied demand. Perhaps you'd care to point it our for us?

But that has nothing to do with the tunnels. Moving the retail out of the tunnels won't increase the amount of retail open after business hours. There are already street level businesses downtown that can't afford to stay open after business hours.

Precisely! All you have to do is look at current street level businesses. They're not suffering because of a lack of street level businesses...

Edited December 8, 2008 by takeshi

[kylejack]

One thing to consider is the type of retail that exists in the tunnels and whether there is any market for it after hours. It's not like the tunnels are full of great retail and restaurants. You tend to have the following businesses, many of which simply provide the opportunity to take care of errands away from home:

1. Dentists/Barbershops/Eyeglass shops & optometrists/watch and jewelry repair/dry cleaners -- won't be open after hours anyway.

2. Convenience stores -- Need a coke, candy, lotto ticket? Does DT need 50 of these moved to the sidewalk?

3. Stationary and office supply stores/corporate mug shots -- only office people need this stuff.

4. Gift shop/tchochkes/bad retail -- need a gift for the secretary, care for a scarf to match your dress, or a holiday sweater?

5. Restaurants/coffe places/smoothie bars -- they feed 200,000 people for lunch. How many can afford to stay open to feed 5,000 people after hours? Too much supply, not enough demand. How many Alonti Delis do we need after hours? How about 20?

Look, I'd like to see stuff on the sidewalk, but most of what is the in the tunnels doesn't translate to anything other than the office crowd that needs a quick bite or get their watch fixed.

Fantastic point. For those who have never visited the tunnels, you really should probably stop talking until you have, because there is nothing all that exciting in the tunnels. They're a nice perk, and sure, some food, but other than that its mostly watch repair stores, and printshops and etc.

[RedScare]

One thing to consider is the type of retail that exists in the tunnels and whether there is any market for it after hours. It's not like the tunnels are full of great retail and restaurants. You tend to have the following businesses, many of which simply provide the opportunity to take care of errands away from home:

1. Dentists/Barbershops/Eyeglass shops & optometrists/watch and jewelry repair/dry cleaners -- won't be open after hours anyway.

2. Convenience stores -- Need a coke, candy, lotto ticket? Does DT need 50 of these moved to the sidewalk?

3. Stationary and office supply stores/corporate mug shots -- only office people need this stuff.

4. Gift shop/tchochkes/bad retail -- need a gift for the secretary, care for a scarf to match your dress, or a holiday sweater?

5. Restaurants/coffe places/smoothie bars -- they feed 200,000 people for lunch. How many can afford to stay open to feed 5,000 people after hours? Too much supply, not enough demand. How many Alonti Delis do we need after hours? How about 20?

Look, I'd like to see stuff on the sidewalk, but most of what is the in the tunnels doesn't translate to anything other than the office crowd that needs a quick bite or get their watch fixed.

Logical responses are not allowed in the tunnel debates. Please rework your post to make less sense. Actually, NO sense at all would be preferred.

[jc281]

I dont work downtown - I have no idea how to access the tunnels. Have always wanted to explore though, any suggestions?

[kylejack]

I dont work downtown - I have no idea how to access the tunnels. Have always wanted to explore though, any suggestions?

Business hours, M-F. You can park at Bayou Place and enter the tunnels from inside the garage there. Alternatively you could park on the street somewhere and enter at the big steps in front of the Wells Fargo building, the big green one. Alternatively you could take MetroRail to Main Street Square and there's some steps down there, I forget where exactly. Or you could go to Shops at Houston Center and there's an escalator near the entrance and Monsoon that goes down to the tunnels. Once in the tunnels there is a map on the wall periodically.

While you're in downtown you might want to check out the observation decks in the Wells Fargo and JP Morgan Chase Tower buildings. You can ride straight to it from the tunnel level in Wells Fargo. In Chase you have to ride to the first floor and then ride up to it.

Edited December 9, 2008 by kylejack