Downtown Tunnel Retail News & Updates

[Purdueenginerd]

I was going to go into a long an elaborate post:

 

but wikipedia will pretty much cover what you need to know

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel#Construction

 

 

[Bob Plumb]

Well that's a fine article in general but it doesn't answer as to how they do it in DT Houston. But thanks.

[jt16]

When heritage plaza made a tunnel connection to the garage they open trenched it. I drove over big iron plate for a long time

[RedScare]

The courthouse tunnels were open trench built.

[rsb320]

I remember when One Shell and Well Fargo were not connected, but don't recall the method they used to connect.

[Bob Plumb]

Well that makes sense.

 

I guess you start with an open trench in your available area topside then continue either direction at tunnel level under the buildings. I was just curious about how its done here given higher water tables and clay soil in the area. If I am still working dt when these projects are going on I will make sure to get over for a look.

 

*not an engineer

[Subdude]

There is some discussion in the Hines 609 Main topic about how it could be connected to the tunnel system.  There are also some other developments for which tunnel connections have been suggested but for which connection routes are not obvious, such as Market Square Stream/Essex, HSPVA and the Exxon building redevelopment. 

 

So, are tunnel connections really critical to project success?  Are they worth the expense?  Are skywalks a more economical alternative? 

 

 

 

[Slick Vik]

After 230 the tunnels are somewhat useless. And they both close at 6 pm. So I'm not sure what the benefit would be for a residential property.

[IronTiger]

I think that since the tunnel system is there (and it's so close) it should be part of it. Parts of the tunnel system don't have anything except connecting passages: the South Louisiana tunnel is the worst since A/C doesn't work, and there's little connections to street level. Skywalks I'm less enthusiastic about since they create visual clutter.

[htownproud]

Ideally it would be neither, as the tunnels killed street life in downtown.  That said, if I was building a Class A building, I would want to be connected to the tunnels.  Houstonians love their air conditioned walkway (even if they have to walk an extra 10 minutes to simply get across the street).  

[Subdude]

I've been giving it some thought, and it seems that tunnels work much better than skywalks in supporting restaurants and retail.  So I would try to keep the downtown  "hub" area tunnel-oriented, while allowing skywalks at the edges.  Based on this, I would say 609 Main would optimally be tunnel-connected, while Exxon and Stream/Essex Market Square could be connected by skywalks, if at all. 

 

 

[IronTiger]

I would like to say that if the tunnels weren't there to begin with, I think it would be preferential to have light rail run underground beneath downtown as opposed on the surface streets. Imagine a Main Street with bike lanes and landscaped medians...

[infinite_jim]

It's all situational whether to construct a tunnel or skywalk for adjacent destinations. Each has advantages and disadvantages.

The first era skyscrapers all had pedestrian street level access so tunneling made sense b/c the lobby was at zero grade (ex. Esperson bldgs)

The second era skyscrapers mostly of international styled modernism typically had a elevated, plinth lobby from which skywalks were a logical choice (KBR complex, Allen Center complex).

This era's skyscrapers seem to engage the street level in a somewhat precedent way and therefore it's probable that tunnels have grown more advantageous to potential bldg developments.

IMO, these transportation amenities don't impede street life b/c the tunnels and skywalks will never directly get you from point A to point B in a straight line nor in happenstance tangent versus taking the sidewalks to get where you want to go. Plus the tunnel system is like walking around at the mall, you get stuck behind groups of people and the airspace smells like grease. On the sidewalk you have more space, fresher air, and the ability to go directly where you want to go.

[flatline]

I think Stream/Essex can tap in to the northern reaches of the tunnel via the Houston Chronicle building, which connects to the big hub at Chase.  It would change the current "cul-de-sac" tunnel, only used by Chron employees, into more of a thoroughfare.  Rather than harm street-level retail, I think this setup could turn out to be a boon for Market Square.  It would add two more air-conditioned blocks of walking in June-September for folks who work in the south and east ends of downtown (Wells Fargo, One Shell, First City, Houston Center, Bank of America, etc.) to stroll over for lunch at Market Square Bar, Fusion Taco, Niko Niko's, etc. I can personally attest that those two extra climate-controlled blocks can be the difference between simply a warm stroll, and a sweat-soaked, hot mess.

[jgriff]

I worked downtown for several years. I rode the bus in and had a about a 1/2 mile walk to get to my building. On days when it was pouring down rain the tunnels were a godsend. If the tunnels weren't there I probably would have driven to work. On days when the weather was nice I always walked on the surface because the tunnels are almost always a longer walk.

[Subdude]

I think Stream/Essex can tap in to the northern reaches of the tunnel via the Houston Chronicle building, which connects to the big hub at Chase.  It would change the current "cul-de-sac" tunnel, only used by Chron employees, into more of a thoroughfare.  Rather than harm street-level retail, I think this setup could turn out to be a boon for Market Square.  It would add two more air-conditioned blocks of walking in June-September for folks who work in the south and east ends of downtown (Wells Fargo, One Shell, First City, Houston Center, Bank of America, etc.) to stroll over for lunch at Market Square Bar, Fusion Taco, Niko Niko's, etc. I can personally attest that those two extra climate-controlled blocks can be the difference between simply a warm stroll, and a sweat-soaked, hot mess.

 

The tunnel to the Chronicle was extended to connect over to Calpine.  Nevertheless, as I recall that section didn't have any retail and was pretty dull.  Getting to Stream/Essex would mean going north under the Chronicle's printing press wing.  I'm not sure if there is a basement level under that that could be utilized; otherwise it would presumably have a pretty substantial foundation that would need to be navigated. 

[IronTiger]

No, the big drive in is required to diffuse and disperse the smell of the Sonic grease.

If they were to put a Sonic in the tunnel people would asphyxiate.

I guess people are going to asphyxiate now. I'm curious as to how the Sonic is going to make money--the aforementioned one in College Station's mall didn't make much money at all. The tunnel hours are even more limited: no half-drunk people coming in at 11pm.

Edited November 15, 2013 by IronTiger

[kylejack]

I guess people are going to asphyxiate now. I'm curious as to how the Sonic is going to make money--the aforementioned one in College Station's mall didn't make much money at all. The tunnel hours are even more limited: no half-drunk people coming in at 11pm.

 

The same way Whataburger does, I suppose.

[IronTiger]

Sonic is known for cheap food (especially those Happy Hour drinks...), so they have to sell a lot of it to make up for the low profit margin.

[ig2ba]

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=208557532588506606958.0004cbcbfdb789c392269&msa=0&ll=29.757224,-95.365577&spn=0.029842,0.038581

You can download a KML.

 

This is belated, but thanks a bunch.

[IronTiger]

One of the things that I've never gotten is why some people dislike the tunnels beyond the usual reasons (too cold, too dark, too greasy, too confusing) and why "urban" folks (you know, the ones that write blogs about how freeways are the scourge of mankind, and all their like-minded friends) seem to hate them too, which seems contradictory, in many ways, to their own ideals.

For example:

- They promote density by introducing a whole new usable level similar to street level without replacing it. Without pesky things like streets, bike lanes, and sidewalks, you can fit all sorts of stuff down there.

- They keep the downtown in many ways free of commercial clutter. One of the biggest complaints of anti-tunnel people is "It robs the downtown of street life/foot traffic" or something like that, but one of the criticisms of freeways is attracting all those signs, but tunnels keep them out of view. Would you like to have every chain imaginable on street level instead?

- There's no cars to dodge or avoid. Why I don't see anyone praising tunnels (not just in Houston but others) as a "pedestrian paradise" or something is beyond me. It's not even surrounded by a sea of parking lots.

Even other complaints ("it's like a mall", etc.) are invalid. The difference between a mall and a commercial district isn't indoors and outdoors, it's who owns the tenants. Malls typically have one landlord controlling all of the tenants (department stores being an exception), whereas a commercial district has multiple landlords, resulting in a more vibrant experience.

Personally, I think tunnels are the best feature of downtown (besides the light rail and tall buildings, of course) and something more large cities ought to have (or at least do properly).

[adr]

I don't blog about traffic.  I do live and own a business downtown, which will color my responses.  Here are some great reasons to dislike the tunnels

 

• Zero data reception on your phone, and often no text or cell, in a labyrinth where you are trying meet people for lunch and no one can decide where to go, so eveyone just goes to subway because it's the only place who's name anyone can remember. 
• Brooklyn Meatball Co. is so delicious that it being sealed off from the world at 3pm just plain sucks.  In fact, sometimes I'll be thinking about those meatballs with that balsamic sauce and how it would hit the spot after having some drinks on Main street and then I'll remember that it is nearby, and even though there are lots of great retail spaces available just one floor up from where it is buried, it's down there locked in a cave and having one of those sandwiches for dinner is just a sad old man's dream and then suddenly I've wandered into Subway and am crying into a shitty meatball footlong.
• You know that if there is ever a zombie outbreak, it's going to start in the damn tunnels and some object that is required to save the world or whatever is going to inevitably end up being down there and you'll have to fight your way in and out to get it.  SUCKS.
• They've got those flood gates, so you can't stuff paper towels in the running sink of one of the Subways bathrooms and flood the entire system, causing Pennzoil let you and your colleagues leave early on a Friday.
• The Chronicle won't let you use their access stairs unless you can prove you're a subscriber, and every conversation you have with them puts you at risk of their "accidentally" upgrading you to twice daily delivery plus La Voz. 
• Mayor Holcombe's ghost is always down there throwing shit around and complaining about how they should have named Bissonnet Street after him.  Dude is seriously the crankiest spector.
• Every now and then, especially during knee-high-boot-season like it is now, I'll be in one of the connecting tunnels and think for a second that maybe, just maybe, I've been transported to the world of Star Trek and that big smile comes out and then I round a corner and see a line at a Subway.

Edited January 12, 2015 by adr

[KristinDaugherty]

Hah! ADR FTW!

 

Honestly, I didn't mind the tunnels much when I worked downtown (which has been at least a decade). It kept me off the street, it was good exercise no matter the weather, and it was fun to snake my way all under downtown at lunch.

 

I did get peeved on occasion when a couple big ole secretaries (it was NEVER men, always women) would heifer their way through the tunnels two abreast, effectively blocking the path for those of us not built like Slenderman.

[Montrose1100]

I like the idea of the tunnels, but in usual Houston fashion there seems to be no grand plan. Just one connection at a time. It would be great if they could redo the whole system to be more cohesive (no, i'm not talking about the Esperson tunnel lobby), widen some of the hallways, and add more space. Center Point Energy Plaza has the right idea. Wells Fargo could use some sprucing up. What's that 1950's building on Milam? Their escalators to the tunnel system are unique.

 

Capitol Tower will hopefully add some more natural light.

[mkultra25]

• Brooklyn Meatball Co. is so delicious that it being sealed off from the world at 3pm just plain sucks.  In fact, sometimes I'll be thinking about those meatballs with that balsamic sauce and how it would hit the spot after having some drinks on Main street and then I'll remember that it is nearby, and even though there are lots of great retail spaces available just one floor up from where it is buried, it's down there locked in a cave and having one of those sandwiches for dinner is just a sad old man's dream and then suddenly I've wandered into Subway and am crying into a shitty meatball footlong.

 

Well played, sir. But with a name as preciously hipsterish as "Brooklyn Meatball Co.", they'd better be good enough to induce tears. I gratefully await the tunnel debut of their sister institution, Williamsburg Locavore Kale Co., knowing that their presence in the subterranean Habitrails will make things that much easier when we have to take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. 

[arche_757]

The tunnel system is not needed.  At all.  Its superfluous.  Completely unnecessary!

 

It would be like having a subway that runs under the RED Line - with the same stops!  Except that they're harder to get to, take more time and energy to find, and they actually only would run about 2 of the 7 miles of the RED Line.  Oh, and the subway wouldn't cross from Point A to Point B in the shortest distance - it would traverse from Point A to Point B in roughly twice the distance winding around in a way that makes one think "This system wasn't ever planned - ever!"   ...even though its been around since what the 1970s?  40 years!

[Montrose1100]

The tunnel system is not needed.  At all.  Its superfluous.  Completely unnecessary!

 

It would be like having a subway that runs under the RED Line - with the same stops!  Except that they're harder to get to, take more time and energy to find, and they actually only would run about 2 of the 7 miles of the RED Line.  Oh, and the subway wouldn't cross from Point A to Point B in the shortest distance - it would traverse from Point A to Point B in roughly twice the distance winding around in a way that makes one think "This system wasn't ever planned - ever!"   ...even though its been around since what the 1970s?  40 years!

Some of us will be thankful when the Russians finally snap that we have the tunnel system.

[jgriff]

The tunnels kept me from getting soaked many times on my way to the office when I worked downtown. If they weren't there I probably would have driven to work so I could park in the garage instead of riding the bus and walking the last few blocks. 

 

[arche_757]

When I worked downtown the options to avoid the rain made my commute longer than need be, so I just brought a slicker or kept a good umbrella with me!  That way I didn't need to worry about the tunnels.

 

I actually prefer walking outside than underground.  I find the argument about the heat to be the most compelling reason to use them - but even then I still think they aren't needed.

[Subdude]

It's funny, but one thing that I've always liked about the tunnels was that they are so random.  It just shows how the system developed organically over decades (kind of like IAH).  Whatever charm they have would have been lost if they had been developed according to a master plan with a consistent design.  It's like Houston's equivalent of a quirky village buried underground.  

 

I'm not sure if it has been updated, but my favorite part was always the "hamster tube" sections south of Houston Center with the carpeted walls.  It was like something out of 1970s science fiction.