Camden McGowen Station & Midtown Park At 2727 Travis St.

[X.R.]

12 hours ago, j_cuevas713 said:

I don’t mind plants but damn I’d say cut that in half at least and give more to the sidewalk. 

 

I walked and rode that area the last few weeks since the fence came down, the sidewalk is very nice, I like the brick. Sidewalk isn't bad, its a little wider than it looks in the pic, but that grassy area is very wide its true. Kind of a pain if you're trying to get to the train really quickly. I feel like this expansive amount of flowers and stuff makes the idea of main being closed to cars...more appealing? Now you have the park (green), these massive flowerways connecting the southern part to the northern part, and then the northern part (the green trees and splash pad thing). Its going to be alot of green (assuming those flowers don't die), and thus now you'll have a beautiful roadway for cars 😂 or maybe the best bike lane in Houston, Texas.  

 

@H-Town Man brings up a good point. If you walk that block, it is sorta weird that this isn't like the part of midtown by Bagby where theres food place/bar every few steps. Kinda sucks. Riding the redline on the weekends, you get a lot of younger people riding for one or two stops then getting off, which kind of highlights how...slow that area can be by Camden. Which definitely should not be the case. That restaurant can't come soon enough.  

 

 

[dbigtex56]

Camden's developments have created long, featureless blocks that will detract from the walkabilty of Midtown until the day that the miserable things are demolished.
 

[Luminare]

13 minutes ago, dbigtex56 said:

Camden's developments have created long, featureless blocks that will detract from the walkabilty of Midtown until the day that the miserable things are demolished.
 

 

...yep I'm definitely getting out of this thread. Not even worth it. Have fun with y'alls rant fest

[bobruss]

I hope the city planning department figures this out before it gets all built out. There needs to be GFR in every block.

Whats the purpose of building a neighborhood without places to walk to in the neighborhood?

I don't care about the argument that you don't own the property so you don't make the rules. If there aren't planning rules we'd have a bunch of shty

apartment buildings that are full of parking lots. That doesn't promote the neighborhood. Its ugly and defeats the purpose of walkability.

For the future benefit of the area they need to plan ahead and make room for the needs of a vibrant, affective neighborhood.

Trees, lighting, nice wide sidewalks, bike lanes and retail. Then you begin to see people getting out of their cars, and walking in the hood.

[quietstorm]

1 hour ago, bobruss said:

I hope the city planning department figures this out before it gets all built out. There needs to be GFR in every block.

Whats the purpose of building a neighborhood without places to walk to in the neighborhood?

I don't care about the argument that you don't own the property so you don't make the rules. If there aren't planning rules we'd have a bunch of shty

apartment buildings that are full of parking lots. That doesn't promote the neighborhood. Its ugly and defeats the purpose of walkability.

For the future benefit of the area they need to plan ahead and make room for the needs of a vibrant, affective neighborhood.

Trees, lighting, nice wide sidewalks, bike lanes and retail. Then you begin to see people getting out of their cars, and walking in the hood.

Unfortunately, the GFR ship has sailed. There are GFR spots sitting vacant in Skyhouse, One Park Place, etc. Perhaps ground floor "amenities" such as yoga studios, fitness clubs, bars and restaurants would work (perhaps not), but the idea of GFR sounds better than the reality.  Young people moving into these developments are shopping online, either via Amazon or through Instagram "influencers" marketing products.  What has promoted walkability in Houston has been public art, parks, water features, concerts, festivals, farmers markets, craft fairs and other "programming" that invites people to common spaces (i.e. Discovery Green, Market Square Park, Levy Park).  Another is density, but we just aren't there yet.  

Edited July 31, 2019 by quietstorm

[BeerNut]

1 hour ago, quietstorm said:

Unfortunately, the GFR ship has sailed. There are GFR spots sitting vacant in Skyhouse, One Park Place, etc. Perhaps ground floor "amenities" such as yoga studios, fitness clubs, bars and restaurants would work (perhaps not), but the idea of GFR sounds better than the reality.  Young people moving into these developments are shopping online, either via Amazon or through Instagram "influencers" marketing products.  What has promoted walkability in Houston has been public art, parks, water features, concerts, festivals, farmers markets, craft fairs and other "programming" that invites people to common spaces (i.e. Discovery Green, Market Square Park, Levy Park).  Another is density, but we just aren't there yet.  

 

What has MidMain Lofts done differently?  They probably have the most available spots for GFR of any recently built multifamily and all but 2 spaces are currently leased.

[bobruss]

2 hours ago, quietstorm said:

Unfortunately, the GFR ship has sailed. There are GFR spots sitting vacant in Skyhouse, One Park Place, etc. Perhaps ground floor "amenities" such as yoga studios, fitness clubs, bars and restaurants would work (perhaps not), but the idea of GFR sounds better than the reality.  Young people moving into these developments are shopping online, either via Amazon or through Instagram "influencers" marketing products.  What has promoted walkability in Houston has been public art, parks, water features, concerts, festivals, farmers markets, craft fairs and other "programming" that invites people to common spaces (i.e. Discovery Green, Market Square Park, Levy Park).  Another is density, but we just aren't there yet.  

Thats not necessarily true. If so then I guess all of these new additions to the galleria River Oaks district and the Village are for nothing. All I'm saying is once the blocks are filled in without GFR you can't come back and add it. Some day maybe not in my lifetime there will be sufficient numbers of people living downtown, midtown to justify stores, dentists, barbers, hardware stores, florist, beauty shops, bookstores, reataurants and bars. 

[EllenOlenska]

As a millennial I want to say: we have legs. 

[Naviguessor]

4 hours ago, EllenOlenska said:

As a millennial I want to say: we have legs. 

But it your thumbs that everybody notices. 

[quietstorm]

17 hours ago, BeerNut said:

 

What has MidMain Lofts done differently?  They probably have the most available spots for GFR of any recently built multifamily and all but 2 spaces are currently leased.

I believe it's the type of ground floor amenities (dental, restaurants, kickboxing?).  I think certain amenities appeal to the demographic that would live in and around MidMain, but not necessarily traditional B&M retail.  Strictly anecdotal, but my daughter lived in a Post property in Uptown Dallas, and most of the ground floor around there is restaurants/coffee shops.  She later moved to the Bishop Arts area in Dallas (which has a Heights "feel"), where there are more eclectic, "funky" little shops in converted homes and refurbished buildings.  My son, who lives in the Bay Area (CA), likes the look and feel Heights Mercantile here--so I think certain types of retail still have an appeal, but not sure if GFR is it.

Edited August 1, 2019 by quietstorm

[H-Town Man]

17 hours ago, quietstorm said:

Unfortunately, the GFR ship has sailed. There are GFR spots sitting vacant in Skyhouse, One Park Place, etc. Perhaps ground floor "amenities" such as yoga studios, fitness clubs, bars and restaurants would work (perhaps not), but the idea of GFR sounds better than the reality.  Young people moving into these developments are shopping online, either via Amazon or through Instagram "influencers" marketing products.  What has promoted walkability in Houston has been public art, parks, water features, concerts, festivals, farmers markets, craft fairs and other "programming" that invites people to common spaces (i.e. Discovery Green, Market Square Park, Levy Park).  Another is density, but we just aren't there yet.  

 

Where is there vacancy in One Park Place? They leased their park-facing space to a brasserie, after they had held it vacant for a few years until the market was right for a high end tenant. Skyhouse is a unique case where they built in a no-man's land in south downtown using a one-plan-fits-all model that they use in many cities, so it will take time. Honestly this sounds like a post from 2013. Ground floor rents are high in downtown and midtown, new projects have more and more GFR (compare the succession of Hines office buildings downtown from BG Group Place to 609 Main to Texas Tower), major brands like Shake Shack and Whole Foods are going into ground floors, and even Class A properties like 700 Louisiana and Houston Center are undergoing costly renovations to create ground floor spaces.

Edited August 1, 2019 by H-Town Man

[cspwal]

46 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

 

Where is there vacancy in One Park Place? They leased their park-facing space to a brasserie, after they had held it vacant for a few years until the market was right for a high end tenant. Skyhouse is a unique case where they built in a no-man's land in south downtown using a one-plan-fits-all model that they use in many cities, so it will take time. Honestly this sounds like a post from 2013. Ground floor rents are high in downtown and midtown, new projects have more and more GFR (compare the succession of Hines office buildings downtown from BG Group Place to 609 Main to Texas Tower), major brands like Shake Shack and Whole Foods are going into ground floors, and even Class A properties like 700 Louisiana and Houston Center are undergoing costly renovations to create ground floor spaces.

Skyhouse has all their spots leased out, though they did remove one of them to create more residential common space.

[ArtNsf]

22 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

 

You started off okay, but about midway through your post you were answering things that I never said or would have said. No, I did not say "that the area would have been better off without this development," I said it would have been better "if there had never been a superblock, because then the apartments and park would have been forced to conform to an urban grid pattern instead of this suburban-style mish-mash." Pretty starkly different statement that I am wondering if you even read or just skimmed.

 

As to the "they're trying, they're getting better," yes they are getting better, but they are lagging what other developers in Houston and peer cities are doing by about 15 years. Post built ground-floor retail apartments in Midtown around the year 2001, then expanded them when they were successful. So please tell me why Campo couldn't deliver GFR along the rail line in circa 2015, especially when Mid-Main was building it at the same time a few blocks away and without the benefit of a park? You say "it was a completely different story back then" but we are talking about four years ago when dozens of mixed-use projects were underway across the city and state.

 

Finally, the whole "comeback to me and tell me what you were able to build" is the equivalent of when someone at a ballpark criticizes the pitcher for walking in a run and then someone turns around and says, "Why don't you try to go out there and pitch." Come on, this is an architecture forum, there is no problem in criticizing something like this.

 

agreed.  but, careful with this commentator, he or she tends to get his or her way in the end, right or wrong.  there are those on here that offer way too many over the top comments (I USED to, but was quickly shot down by moderator(s) long ago.  Just a word of caution to stay in good graces with the forum.  And, again I agree with your sentiments wholeheartedly btw.  Thanks for posting them.

[quietstorm]

1 hour ago, H-Town Man said:

 

Where is there vacancy in One Park Place? They leased their park-facing space to a brasserie, after they had held it vacant for a few years until the market was right for a high end tenant. Skyhouse is a unique case where they built in a no-man's land in south downtown using a one-plan-fits-all model that they use in many cities, so it will take time. Honestly this sounds like a post from 2013. Ground floor rents are high in downtown and midtown, new projects have more and more GFR (compare the succession of Hines office buildings downtown from BG Group Place to 609 Main to Texas Tower), major brands like Shake Shack and Whole Foods are going into ground floors, and even Class A properties like 700 Louisiana and Houston Center are undergoing costly renovations to create ground floor spaces.

You're right, One Park Place is occupied by a restaurant.  It seems we're referring to different things as GFR....as I've said, restaurants seem to be more viable. Not sure how posting that B&M retail is losing ground to Amazon is reminiscent of 2013, but ok lol.

[dbigtex56]

20 hours ago, Luminare said:

 

...yep I'm definitely getting out of this thread. Not even worth it. Have fun with y'alls rant fest

 

When you announce it, it's called 'flouncing'.

[H-Town Man]

13 minutes ago, quietstorm said:

You're right, One Park Place is occupied by a restaurant.  It seems we're referring to different things as GFR....as I've said, restaurants seem to be more viable. Not sure how posting that B&M retail is losing ground to Amazon is reminiscent of 2013, but ok lol.

 

Well that one part is not reminiscent of 2013. I think if you narrowed your statement to saying that traditional dry-goods retail like apparel is a ship that's sailed, that would make sense. But like you've said, there are lots of other types of retail that have not been hurt by Amazon. The epicurean shift in the nation's eating habits, combined with the slow abandonment of the household kitchen, means that restaurants are stronger than they've ever been. Plus the endless personal services that people need.

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by H-Town Man

[quietstorm]

Interesting article on the viability of GFR, which I think has relevance to the area around the Mid-Main area, including Camden.  The trend to require GFR in cities like New York and San Francisco has resulted in vacant storefronts; largely due to developers holding out for tenants that can pay the higher rents.  Unconventional uses for these spaces such as pop-up shops, and programming to engage pedestrians is mentioned.  

 

Quote

“People have so many choices now, you have to have a reason to get people inside the stores,” said Morgan, who was one of the brokers that represented the landlord in the Nike deal. “There are certain things you can’t buy online. You can’t buy an experience. You can’t go to Disneyland online.” Other landlords find solutions in repositioning properties. Along Santa Monica’s Third Street Promenade, where more than 11 million visitors come each year, many of the retail storefronts that once lined the popular outdoor pedestrian mall have become creative offices or mixed-use properties. Such repositioning can require new conversations about what is wanted out of a property.

Read more at: https://www.bisnow.com/national/news/retail/fed-up-with-vacant-storefronts-residents-force-cities-to-punish-retail-landlords-91715?utm_source=CopyShare&utm_medium=Browser

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by quietstorm

[H-Town Man]

34 minutes ago, quietstorm said:

Interesting article on the viability of GFR, which I think has relevance to the area around the Mid-Main area, including Camden.  The trend to require GFR in cities like New York and San Francisco has resulted in vacant storefronts; largely due to developers holding out for tenants that can pay the higher rents.  Unconventional uses for these spaces such as pop-up shops, and programming to engaged pedestrians is mentioned.  

 

 

 

I think this is a good article but most relevant for areas that function as shopping districts equivalent to open-air malls. What we are hoping for in places like Midtown is restaurants and neighborhood services, stuff like nail salons, health/wellness products, barbers & styling, cell phone providers, etc. The thousands of residents moving in there will need some of that, and in the long run, you will get the apparel back, it just has to go through a paradigm shift. But this does serve as a cautionary lessen for people hoping that the downtown shopping corridor on Main Street is going to come back anytime soon.

 

[Highrise Tower]

Mulch was installed this week.

 

 

[Response]

One day you might even be glad the streets of Midtown are aligned with flowers and gardens instead of a bunch of abandoned buildings and empty storefronts. Dreams are wonderful but sometimes you have to make the best out of what you've got. Damn real world! Midtown is light years better than it was in the 90s and before, but most of it still looks like it always did. These Camden thingys may not be an urbanist's dream but they are easier on the eye than what still exist on dozens and dozens and dozens of fugly blocks that still need improvement in Midtown. Given a choice of spending the remainder of my life with what already exist on most of these blocks and large apartments that fill the whole block and are built up to the sidewalk WITHOUT GFR (which is getting more irrelevant by the day), I'll take the Camden style any day. 

 

And please spare me that "but maybe somebody else might build something better on that lot in the future" argument. 100+ years of urban blight is long enough for Midtown. 
 

Edited August 3, 2019 by Response

[dbigtex56]

17 minutes ago, Response said:

One day you might even be glad the streets of Midtown are aligned with flowers and gardens instead of a bunch of abandoned buildings and empty storefronts. Dreams are wonderful but sometimes you have to make the best out of what you've got. Damn real world! Midtown is light years better than it was in the 90s and before, but most of it still looks like it always did. These Camdon thingys may not be an urbanist's dream but they are easier on the eye than what still exist on dozens and dozens and dozens of fugly blocks that still need improvement in Midtown. Given a choice of spending the remainder of my life with what already exist on most of these blocks and large apartments that fill the whole block and are built up to the sidewalk WITHOUT GFR (which is getting more irrelevant by the day), I'll take the Camdon style any day. 

 

And please spare me that "but maybe somebody else might build something better on that lot in the future" argument. 100+ years of urban blight is long enough for Midtown. 
 

 

I haven't seen anyone is objecting to the idea that "the streets of Midtown are aligned [sic] with flowers and gardens instead of a bunch of abandoned buildings and empty storefronts." 

I'm also puzzled by the statement that "most of it looks like it always did", because it doesn't.

It should also be noted that Midtown didn't suffer from "100+ years of urban blight". It was a thriving area until shortly after WWII, started losing residents and businesses to the suburbs, and was almost wiped out in the 70's when properties were bought for their sewage hookup rights, and the buildings demolished or left to deteriorate. Since rebuilding started in the 90s and took off in the 2000s, urban blight was a problem for perhaps 35 years, not 100.
The objections voiced to Camdon-style development aren't solely centered on the lack of GFR. It's also the fact that these giant fenced-off blocks destroy the free circulation of the neighborhood's residents by violating the street grid. in the "damn real world", this is a concern. 
A balance has to be achieved between short-term gains and long term negative consequences. If no one speaks up about the shortcomings of Camden style developments, the same mistakes will be repeated elsewhere. We can't learn from mistakes unless the mistakes are identified and acknowledged. And in an urban environment, these giant monolithic blocks are a mistake.

 

[mollusk]

Even an extra foot or so would add 20% or so and make a more inviting sidewalk, while leaving plenty of room for greenscape - however, it would also add to the flatwork bill.  That's probably a motivation, since as it is it looks like it barely meets ADA width standards. 

[Response]

3 hours ago, dbigtex56 said:

 

I haven't seen anyone is objecting to the idea that "the streets of Midtown are aligned [sic] with flowers and gardens instead of a bunch of abandoned buildings and empty storefronts." 

I'm also puzzled by the statement that "most of it looks like it always did", because it doesn't.

It should also be noted that Midtown didn't suffer from "100+ years of urban blight". It was a thriving area until shortly after WWII, started losing residents and businesses to the suburbs, and was almost wiped out in the 70's when properties were bought for their sewage hookup rights, and the buildings demolished or left to deteriorate. Since rebuilding started in the 90s and took off in the 2000s, urban blight was a problem for perhaps 35 years, not 100.
The objections voiced to Camdon-style development aren't solely centered on the lack of GFR. It's also the fact that these giant fenced-off blocks destroy the free circulation of the neighborhood's residents by violating the street grid. in the "damn real world", this is a concern. 
A balance has to be achieved between short-term gains and long term negative consequences. If no one speaks up about the shortcomings of Camden style developments, the same mistakes will be repeated elsewhere. We can't learn from mistakes unless the mistakes are identified and acknowledged. And in an urban environment, these giant monolithic blocks are a mistake.

 

I think Midtown is way better and more beautiful than it used to be and some blocks are so much better that I can hardly believe my eyes. But most of the streets (particularly east of Main) look about the same to me as they always did. A jumbled mess of parking lots, junky looking buildings, various distances from the buildings to the sidewalks, no cohesiveness, ect.  100 years? 35 years? What's the difference? Most of it has looked pretty run down in my lifetime.  My point is most of Midtown is still not that great and Camden's are FAR BETTER than what we currently have on many of those blocks. In fact, I think they have helped Midtown way more than hurt it. So no need to call for their destruction just yet. I get your concerns with Camden. They are far from ideal. But if I could replace every instance of this:

 

 

 

and this:

 

 

with this:

 

 

and this:

 

 

I would.

 

Not saying these Camdens are making Midtown much more walkable. But at least they look better and they aren't making Midtown less walkable.  They are putting more people in the city center, so just their very existence is helping walkability. No it isn't NYC or SF, but it's not bad for Houston. Besides, there's more to life than 'walkability'.  I have a feeling that 'walkability' is on it's way out in the rest of the world anyway. It will just be turned into a novelty by the internet - like vinyl records. But please keep fighting for perfection and don't let them off the hook! Surely Midtown wouldn't be improving each and every day if it wasn't for all the complaints on HAIF. 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2019 by Response

[bobruss]

So in the future will people evolve with no legs? What do mean walkability is out. I thought you were spot on until you got to the walkability part.

[X.R.]

19 hours ago, ekdrm2d1 said:

Mulch was installed this week.

 

 

 

This has to mean that they are close to done, right? Like, how long does it really take to do all this stuff. The splash pad  looking thing looks done. But still not eta, smh

[BeerNut]

2 hours ago, bobruss said:

So in the future will people evolve with no legs? What do mean walkability is out. I thought you were spot on until you got to the walkability part.

[Highrise Tower]

15 minutes ago, X.R. said:

 

This has to mean that they are close to done, right? Like, how long does it really take to do all this stuff. The splash pad  looking thing looks done. But still not eta, smh

 

Believe so. They were cleaning the glass on Friday.

[Response]

2 hours ago, bobruss said:

So in the future will people evolve with no legs? What do mean walkability is out. I thought you were spot on until you got to the walkability part.

 

That's right. No legs. At this rate, your iPhone will eliminate the need to get out of bed altogether, unless you're being paid to do it. Just kidding. I know there is at least a 'desire' if not a need for walkability. I prefer the residential buildings with GFR too. But the last mall I went to didn't make me feel very optimistic about the future of shops that nobody really needs anymore.

 

My only real point is why rag on Camden, when Midtown has so many genuine monstrosities to rally against. dbigtex's has every right to complain about Camden's issues. I don't really disagree with him.  But IMO there are so many more qualified structures in Midtown to call for the destruction of than Camdens. At least Camdens "look" more inviting to walk in front of than most of Midtown.

 

[kdog08]

On 8/1/2019 at 2:27 PM, H-Town Man said:

 

I think this is a good article but most relevant for areas that function as shopping districts equivalent to open-air malls. What we are hoping for in places like Midtown is restaurants and neighborhood services, stuff like nail salons, health/wellness products, barbers & styling, cell phone providers, etc. The thousands of residents moving in there will need some of that, and in the long run, you will get the apparel back, it just has to go through a paradigm shift. But this does serve as a cautionary lessen for people hoping that the downtown shopping corridor on Main Street is going to come back anytime soon.

 

 

There's still plenty of room for all that retail. 

[mattyt36]

5 hours ago, Response said:

I think Midtown is way better and more beautiful than it used to be and some blocks are so much better that I can hardly believe my eyes. But most of the streets (particularly east of Main) look about the same to me as they always did. A jumbled mess of parking lots, junky looking buildings, various distances from the buildings to the sidewalks, no cohesiveness, ect.  100 years? 35 years? What's the difference? Most of it has looked pretty run down in my lifetime.  My point is most of Midtown is still not that great and Camden's are FAR BETTER than what we currently have on many of those blocks. In fact, I think they have helped Midtown way more than hurt it. So no need to call for their destruction just yet. I get your concerns with Camden. They are far from ideal. But if I could replace every instance of this:

 

 

 

and this:

 

 

with this:

 

 

and this:

 

 

I would.

 

Not saying these Camdens are making Midtown much more walkable. But at least they look better and they aren't making Midtown less walkable.  They are putting more people in the city center, so just their very existence is helping walkability. No it isn't NYC or SF, but it's not bad for Houston. Besides, there's more to life than 'walkability'.  I have a feeling that 'walkability' is on it's way out in the rest of the world anyway. It will just be turned into a novelty by the internet - like vinyl records. But please keep fighting for perfection and don't let them off the hook! Surely Midtown wouldn't be improving each and every day if it wasn't for all the complaints on HAIF. 

 

 

 

The main reason Midtown “still looks bad” IMO is that it’s still a drive-through neighborhood with way too wide streets connecting to the Spur. “Complete streeting” the entire neighborhood would make it a much different place.