Six Houston Center At 800 Caroline St.

[bobruss]

Sorry, I thought this might be like the Hines Texas Tower, where the garage is underneath the tower.

My bad. From the renderings I saw on the Market Square thread it looked like the building would be partially built over the garage. I just hadn't paid enough attention when I was

down there to notice that only half of the block was covered by the garage. I was just agreeing with you about the potential for 43 to be next.

[editor]

On 10/22/2021 at 11:02 PM, Big E said:

Houston Center primarily. The Texas Eastern Corporation bought 32 city blocks and leveled all of it to build Houston Center, which was one of the largest private development projects ever envisioned. However, only a fraction of that land was ever developed to specification, leaving most of the land as vacant parking lots. Most of those blocks remained undeveloped as late as 2004. Four Houston Center was originally the designation of a 54 story office tower, which was never built. The name was subsequently adopted by the squat office building where the shops at Houston Center are.

I see a sign up for 7 Houston Center, but I don't have a sense of how long it's been there.  Any chance of that happening, or is that project dead?

[bobruss]

Thats a very old sign. Thats one that will eventually get developed but they have a hard time pulling the trigger.

[Big E]

6 hours ago, editor said:

I see a sign up for 7 Houston Center, but I don't have a sense of how long it's been there.  Any chance of that happening, or is that project dead?

You mean Six Houston Center? That actually already has a thread.

[editor]

8 hours ago, Big E said:

You mean Six Houston Center? That actually already has a thread.

I really thought the sign read 7.  I'll take a picture the next time I walk by.  Maybe I'm smoking crack waffles.

[editor]

Ah, you're right.  It was six.  I checked Apple Maps:

Gotta lay off the crack waffles.

[nate4l1f3]

15 hours ago, bobruss said:

Thats a very old sign. Thats one that will eventually get developed but they have a hard time pulling the trigger.

I dislike the design on that sign very much. Do you know if this is the new rendering? If so, it’s 1000x better. 

[KinkaidAlum]

This is the newer rendering they're still shopping around for a lead tenant. It is so much better than the Hines clone notched tower. I hope this gets built eventually but it's been around for years.

[H-Town Man]

11 minutes ago, KinkaidAlum said:

This is the newer rendering they're still shopping around for a lead tenant. It is so much better than the Hines clone notched tower. I hope this gets built eventually but it's been around for years.

It seems just perfect for someone to downsize from 400,000 to 250,000 SF and knock one of our 80's-era buildings into Class B/high vacancy status. 

 

[bobruss]

This would be outstanding and it would give a little more mass and balance to the east side of Main.

[nate4l1f3]

2 hours ago, KinkaidAlum said:

This is the newer rendering they're still shopping around for a lead tenant. It is so much better than the Hines clone notched tower. I hope this gets built eventually but it's been around for years.

You just brightened my day.  

[Triton]

Moved these comments over to the Six Houston Center thread here.

[Big E]

2 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

It seems just perfect for someone to downsize from 400,000 to 250,000 SF and knock one of our 80's-era buildings into Class B/high vacancy status. 

 

I hope not. The last thing we need is a mostly empty skyscraper just sitting downtown. In this, we should not try to copy Dallas.

[bobruss]

I hate to break it to you but I know of at least one right now. 

Exxon

[Montrose1100]

Every time a 6 Houston Center rendering shows up on the HAIF, it's a bad omen. The last time we saw oil prices plummet. Before that, the great recession of 2008. 

How many Houston Centers is too many? 6 apparently.

It's the nicest version we've seen of it though. 

[H-Town Man]

17 hours ago, Big E said:

I hope not. The last thing we need is a mostly empty skyscraper just sitting downtown. In this, we should not try to copy Dallas.

Yeah, my comment was a little tongue-in-cheek. But that has been happening as the large mass of buildings built between 1975 and 1985 lose their appeal to big money tenants. The difference between us and Dallas is that we have a lot of deep-pocketed tenants downtown who are happy to pay more rent for space in a new building, whereas in Dallas, the deep-pocketed tenants are in Frisco, Addison, and Irving, and no new office buildings are getting built downtown.

 

[toxtethogrady]

On 11/11/2021 at 10:54 AM, H-Town Man said:

Yeah, my comment was a little tongue-in-cheek. But that has been happening as the large mass of buildings built between 1975 and 1985 lose their appeal to big money tenants. The difference between us and Dallas is that we have a lot of deep-pocketed tenants downtown who are happy to pay more rent for space in a new building, whereas in Dallas, the deep-pocketed tenants are in Frisco, Addison, and Irving, and no new office buildings are getting built downtown.

 

Maybe not a skyscraper, but there's plenty of opportunity for a residential high-rise...

[HoustonBoy]

Dallas at the moment has a handful of skyscrapers in development for downtown. Hopefully we do follow their lead and turn some of our offices into hotels in the near future. 

[Texasota]

Except do we really need more hotels downtown at this point? What downtown still needs is full-time residents. Progress has been made, but ultimately downtown needs thousands more residents.

[H-Town Man]

On 11/13/2021 at 10:48 AM, toxtethogrady said:

Maybe not a skyscraper, but there's plenty of opportunity for a residential high-rise...

I think this site is destined for office since it is adjacent to Houston Center and doesn't have a park or anything next to it. Other sites would be better for residential.

 

[H-Town Man]

11 minutes ago, Texasota said:

Except do we really need more hotels downtown at this point? What downtown still needs is full-time residents. Progress has been made, but ultimately downtown needs thousands more residents.

The hotel occupancy levels are definitely saying we don't need another hotel downtown right now. But if I had a choice between 300 full residential units or 300 full hotel rooms, I am picking hotel rooms. Hotel guests eat out and explore the neighborhood almost every night. Residents occasionally eat out, already know the neighborhood so aren't too explorative. Only downsides to hotels are all the pick-ups and drop-offs, and sometimes the buildings are ugly stucco boxes with tacky signage. I am hopeful that The Rice can someday be a hotel again.

 

[BeerNut]

I think this all depends on what the convention scene does in this post-covid world.   Unless we somehow become a major tourist destination...

[Texasota]

1 hour ago, H-Town Man said:

The hotel occupancy levels are definitely saying we don't need another hotel downtown right now. But if I had a choice between 300 full residential units or 300 full hotel rooms, I am picking hotel rooms. Hotel guests eat out and explore the neighborhood almost every night. Residents occasionally eat out, already know the neighborhood so aren't too explorative. Only downsides to hotels are all the pick-ups and drop-offs, and sometimes the buildings are ugly stucco boxes with tacky signage. I am hopeful that The Rice can someday be a hotel again.

 

I think you're overestimating how much hotel guests go out and underestimating how much permanent residents do. 

But either way, permanent residents support a much broader array of businesses than hotel goers can. 

And it would be a different conversation if we were lacking in hotel rooms, but we really aren't. And that's not even counting the planned hotel conversion at the post office or the W or whatever.

[H-Town Man]

19 minutes ago, Texasota said:

I think you're overestimating how much hotel guests go out and underestimating how much permanent residents do. 

But either way, permanent residents support a much broader array of businesses than hotel goers can. 

And it would be a different conversation if we were lacking in hotel rooms, but we really aren't. And that's not even counting the planned hotel conversion at the post office or the W or whatever.

The first sentence of my post acknowledged that we are not lacking in hotel rooms.

Do you really think that permanent residents who have kitchens and pantries eat out nearly as often as hotel guests, who usually have neither? I'm sure the permanent residents like to go out on Fridays and Saturdays, maybe a weeknight or two, but as often as hotel guests?

You do make an interesting point about the businesses that each supports. Permanent residents support groceries, dry cleaners, maybe a florist, and some dry goods. Hotel residents I would think are more supportive of restaurants and touristy things like POST.

[houstontexasjack]

1 hour ago, H-Town Man said:

The first sentence of my post acknowledged that we are not lacking in hotel rooms.

Do you really think that permanent residents who have kitchens and pantries eat out nearly as often as hotel guests, who usually have neither? I'm sure the permanent residents like to go out on Fridays and Saturdays, maybe a weeknight or two, but as often as hotel guests?

You do make an interesting point about the businesses that each supports. Permanent residents support groceries, dry cleaners, maybe a florist, and some dry goods. Hotel residents I would think are more supportive of restaurants and touristy things like POST.

I’d think a permanent resident that selects Downtown Houston as a place to live would go out to eat more than 1 or 2 nights a week. It’s one of the major advantages of living in a dense location. 

[H-Town Man]

10 minutes ago, houstontexasjack said:

I’d think a permanent resident that selects Downtown Houston as a place to live would go out to eat more than 1 or 2 nights a week. It’s one of the major advantages of living in a dense location. 

"Fridays and Saturdays" plus "maybe a weeknight or two" = 3 or 4 nights a week

 

[downtownian]

3 hours ago, houstontexasjack said:

I’d think a permanent resident that selects Downtown Houston as a place to live would go out to eat more than 1 or 2 nights a week. It’s one of the major advantages of living in a dense location. 

Anecdotally, I meet with a lot of business travelers from NY and Chicago who stay in downtown hotels. They mostly go to business meetings during the day and then eat at the hotel restaurant (JW or Four Seasons) and leave on the first flight out the next day. If they venture out, it is usually to safe choices that they are familiar with vs. local and independent small businesses. 

As a downtown resident, I constantly go out to eat and also take walks around the neighborhood and parks 3-4 times a week. I don't think the POST is touristy - I personally view it as an authentic and key addition to the area that I will visit often. Went to the grand opening and am doing dinner and Rufus this coming Friday and expect that to continue. 

 

[Texasota]

I have spent a lot of time on the road in hotels. I would typically be the most likely of my colleagues to want to check out local places - most of them just wanted to get whatever was easiest and go back to their hotel. If it was an extended stay we might plan something once or twice a week.

Traveling for work can be weirdly exhausting, and the novelty can very quickly get old. 

My wife lived at the Rice when we met. Places downtown quickly became regular haunts. Public Services (RIP). The sushi place on the ground floor of the Rice. Honeymoon/Boomtown. Pastry War. La Carafe. 

I was 100% in favor of more hotels downtown, but we have them now. And if that's all we get from now on, downtown will just get more touristy, generic, and boring. We need people who live there and have a stake in it. People who are willing to try a place twice or go somewhere they don't recognize.

[H-Town Man]

Interesting replies, good points. I never suggested that we have only hotels from now on, nor do I think this is remotely likely. The market for residential appears much healthier than the hotel market, so I think you all will get your wish.

[editor]

FWIW, there was a survey team on site today.  Surveying.  Well, two guys were surveying, and one guy was sitting in the truck.