800 Bell St. (Former Exxon Building) Conversion to Residential

[004n063]

Somebody on Reddit said that the parking lots adjacent to this building cannot be developed due to structurally integral underground cables for this building.

Anybody know if there is any truth to that?

(If so, I withdraw my support for this conversion, and instead would like to start a pitchfork mob calling for its demolition.)

[Tumbleweed_Tx]

On 1/20/2023 at 5:45 PM, hindesky said:

I used this once for the easiest Bike Tag ever if you are willing to ride up 8 floors of parking garage.

that's one of the best spots in town for taking pictures at night

[phillip_white]

15 hours ago, 004n063 said:

Somebody on Reddit said that the parking lots adjacent to this building cannot be developed due to structurally integral underground cables for this building.

Anybody know if there is any truth to that?

I call malarkey.

[004n063]

1 hour ago, phillip_white said:

I call malarkey.

I hope you are right!

[mattyt36]

3 hours ago, phillip_white said:

I call malarkey.

How would that even work legally?  It'd be quite the encroachment.

[Houston19514]

57 minutes ago, mattyt36 said:

How would that even work legally?  It'd be quite the encroachment.

Exactly.  And it's hard to imagine how it would work physically as well...

[mattyt36]

12 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

Exactly.  And it's hard to imagine how it would work physically as well...

Well there’s that, too, now that you mention it. 🙃  Structurally integral underground cables on adjacent blocks? I’m no engineer but rings hollow to me.

[jdbaker]

20 hours ago, 004n063 said:

Somebody on Reddit said that the parking lots adjacent to this building cannot be developed due to structurally integral underground cables for this building.

Anybody know if there is any truth to that?

(If so, I withdraw my support for this conversion, and instead would like to start a pitchfork mob calling for its demolition.)

This is not true. I'm familiar with the ownership of three of the parking lot blocks surrounding 800 Bell. They are very sophisticated long term investors from NYC. They will go vertical at some point, but are happy to hold as long as it takes for the right deal. 

[004n063]

I was skeptical, but it sounded just horrible enough to be possible. So glad to here it's false.

[hindesky]

https://www.carnegiemanagementinc.com/index.html

https://www.cmidevelopers.com
 

[phillip_white]

9 hours ago, hindesky said:

https://www.carnegiemanagementinc.com/index.html

https://www.cmidevelopers.com
 

Uh oh... hopefully they aren't structural 😆

[ultimate_ed]

New article about the project.

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/houston-apartments-exxon-building-17736880.php

[hindesky]

[HoustonIsHome]

800 Bell really needs some neighbors. They don't have to be ballers. A few 20-25 floor (Skyhouse height) residential would be great. 

No parking podiums though. We need to loosen our hold on those, and that area has a couple monster ones already. To the North, on Clay the view is just a wall of parking. Does anyone know how full this get during peak use? 

The last hotel I stayed at in New Orleans was next to a giant parking garage and I didn't realize it until I was about to leave. There was retail in 3 sides that created so much ground level activity that I never bothered to look up. And even after looking up the only hint that this buildings were parking was the lack of windows. 

Here is an example in the French Quarter: 900 Iberville St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/AMrgN528ZfzCnCoR8

Compared to the ones near 800 Bell: 872 Clay St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/1q7Ny28EPDAChLT56

What do yall think of putting in stiffer regulations on downtown garage facades (especially fronting major thoroughfares).

Also, I know Randall’s is close, but I think this would be a great area for an alternative. 

[004n063]

4 minutes ago, HoustonIsHome said:

800 Bell really needs some neighbors. They don't have to be ballers. A few 20-25 floor (Skyhouse height) residential would be great. 

No parking podiums though. We need to loosen our hold on those, and that area has a couple monster ones already. To the North, on Clay the view is just a wall of parking. Does anyone know how full this get during peak use? 

The last hotel I stayed at in New Orleans was next to a giant parking garage and I didn't realize it until I was about to leave. There was retail in 3 sides that created so much ground level activity that I never bothered to look up. And even after looking up the only hint that this buildings were parking was the lack of windows. 

Here is an example in the French Quarter: 900 Iberville St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/AMrgN528ZfzCnCoR8

Compared to the ones near 800 Bell: 872 Clay St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/1q7Ny28EPDAChLT56

What do yall think of putting in stiffer regulations on downtown garage facades (especially fronting major thoroughfares).

Also, I know Randall’s is close, but I think this would be a great area for an alternative. 

I highly doubt a "full-sized" grocery store could work there, but it'd be nice to see more city-sized grocers (think Phoenicia at the very large end) spring up around the city.

 

I also agree that this parking district could be reinvisioned as a really nice urban village. In my fantasy, the blocks are criss-crossed by narrow pedestrian streets, but I don't see that happening. More likely several Texas Donuts à la 1810 Main. 

(Which would still be a massive improvement over the current configuration.)

[HoustonIsHome]

Ha ha, when the rail was first built it didn't take much to improve that area. No one got off at Bell. That stop was just... potential .. Spilling a can of paint would have been an improvement. 

It has slooooowly changed in the last few years.

I agree this can develop into a nice urban village,  but why don't you think a full sized grocer would not work? It's the Randall’s considered a full sized grocer? 

I don't mean something like a Super Walmart.  I was thinking more along the lines of Rouses in the CBD in Orleans (there's also a smaller version in their downtown but the CBD version is the one I'm thinking of). 900 Girod St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/HvcsHDaJdt3H7N528

That area used to be dead dead. Day or night. But since the grocery came in, there's been tons of activity day and night and a supporting cast of additional retail and restaurants have been popping up. 

Phoenicias is great and all but it's just one store. New Orleans downtown and it's CBD has probably 8 of the little grocers in addition to Rouses, the little corner stores like Brothers and the regular Walgreens and CVSs.

 

Sorry for going on and on, but why do you think another Randall’s-like supermarket won't work in that area? An urban Kroger or even better, an Aldi would probably work.  Heck even a Phoenicia2.0

There used to be another grocery store on the north end of Downtown. It started with a 'G' was it Georginas? It was cool but waaaay too pricey to do any regular shopping. Wasn't surprised that it didn't last long.

 

[004n063]

3 hours ago, HoustonIsHome said:

Ha ha, when the rail was first built it didn't take much to improve that area. No one got off at Bell. That stop was just... potential .. Spilling a can of paint would have been an improvement. 

It has slooooowly changed in the last few years.

I agree this can develop into a nice urban village,  but why don't you think a full sized grocer would not work? It's the Randall’s considered a full sized grocer? 

I don't mean something like a Super Walmart.  I was thinking more along the lines of Rouses in the CBD in Orleans (there's also a smaller version in their downtown but the CBD version is the one I'm thinking of). 900 Girod St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/HvcsHDaJdt3H7N528

That area used to be dead dead. Day or night. But since the grocery came in, there's been tons of activity day and night and a supporting cast of additional retail and restaurants have been popping up. 

Phoenicias is great and all but it's just one store. New Orleans downtown and it's CBD has probably 8 of the little grocers in addition to Rouses, the little corner stores like Brothers and the regular Walgreens and CVSs.

 

Sorry for going on and on, but why do you think another Randall’s-like supermarket won't work in that area? An urban Kroger or even better, an Aldi would probably work.  Heck even a Phoenicia2.0

There used to be another grocery store on the north end of Downtown. It started with a 'G' was it Georginas? It was cool but waaaay too pricey to do any regular shopping. Wasn't surprised that it didn't last long.

 

I am not an expert in grocery store economics, but my sense is just that the fact that there's a full-sized Randall's half a mile (if that) away would make it tough to pull in enough customers, especially since the Randall's is in a much more densely populated area that becomes denser still as you proceed southwest. 

All that said, there are zero grocery stores of any size directly on the Red Line, and Randall's is...well, not my favorite, anyway. So maybe a top-tier HEB or Whole Foods could do well and just put that Randall's out of business. But in either case, I'd say there's a "this [part of Down]town ain't big enough for the two of us" thing going on. 

But yeah, something like the Buffalo Heights HEB or the Midtown WF, with ground floor grocery and apartments above, might be successful at one of the current SP+ Parking lots. 

I think it'd need to be part of a bigger SoDo district plan, though, somewhere in the range of 2,000 total units. 

Again, I have zero expertise in any of this, so my thoughts here are worth nothing. But grocery stores do seem to have pretty huge overhead costs, especially in pricey real estate, and it seems to me that they tend to be averse to purely prospective/ hypothetical catchments.

Edited February 20, 2023 by 004n063

[HoustonIsHome]

I get what you are saying, but you are looking at your baby and saying she is the right size for these onesies and the 1T dress is just too big. Are you planning on your baby being onesie sized for ever? 

But With:

1. 1801 Smith,

2. 800 Bell,

3. the new 1801 Main apartments 

 4&5. the 2 Skyhouses,

6. Houston House,

7. 2016 Main

8. Eighteen25 Downtown 

9. Hamilton Downtown 

10. 2111 Austin Apartments 

11. 1711 Caroline Apartments 

12. Camden Downtown Apartments 

13. Block 334 Apartments 

14. Camden City Center

15. Skyline @ Midtown 

16. The Edge Condominiums 

17. Post Midtown 

18. 2222 Smith

19. Camden Midtown 

20. Camden Travis

21. Camden McGowan Station

22. Drewery Place

23. The Travis 

24. Mid Main Lofts

25. Midtown on the rail

26. Temenos Apartments ro

27. New Temenos Apartments....

There's probably a dozen others that I'm forgetting but the point is the baby isn't going to be onesie sized for ever don't you think a forward thinking plan for that area shouldn't include a grocery store? 

People can work, play and go out to eat Downtown, but the live part is verrrry difficult without a car because Phoenicias is too specialized and Randall’s is OK but doesn't fit the bill. I mean I can live on what's there but I don't want to and I think with all the options further west most people wouldn't want to either unless they have a car and that brings us back to the monster parking podiums or standalone garages. 

New Orleans downtown and it's CBD doesn't have any more people than Houston's downtown and midtown and yet they have close to a dozen to our 3. And out midtown and down town is about 4 miles compared to theirs at under 2 miles.

I think if we keep the it wouldn't work mentality we won't ever develop anything vibrant. 

800 bell at 45 floors can host a ton of people, 1801 Smith are going to host hundreds more, there's 3 empty blocks next to 800 bell that can host thousands. If they get rid of Pierce that would free up a dozen more blocks that could potentially hold thousands more. 

The Greyhound and McDonalds site is ripe for development, so it's that fenced field across from Greyhound,  then there's those 3 Cadillac blocks, there's sooooo much potential in that area but if Randall’s is the only option then forget about it. There would have to be at least an HEB AND at least a target for it to be worth it.  Otherwise give me the Heights, Montrose,  Rice Millitary any day. If i have to drive over there to shop why not just live there?

It is the missing piece in the puzzle. Heck even the CVSs in New Orleans stock more options than the ones in downtown/midtown Houston.  Corner stores like Brothers sell everything from booze to cooked food. 

 

Downtown and midtown (eado and 3rd ward too) has the bones for a real walkable environment but if you can't walk to get every day items then what's the point on it being walkable. Your grocery allotment would definitely have to be bumped up if you are relying on Phoenicia or Randall’s for your everyday needs.

[004n063]

1 hour ago, HoustonIsHome said:

I get what you are saying, but you are looking at your baby and saying she is the right size for these onesies and the 1T dress is just too big. Are you planning on your baby being onesie sized for ever? 

But With:

1. 1801 Smith,

2. 800 Bell,

3. the new 1801 Main apartments 

 4&5. the 2 Skyhouses,

6. Houston House,

7. 2016 Main

8. Eighteen25 Downtown 

9. Hamilton Downtown 

10. 2111 Austin Apartments 

11. 1711 Caroline Apartments 

12. Camden Downtown Apartments 

13. Block 334 Apartments 

14. Camden City Center

15. Skyline @ Midtown 

16. The Edge Condominiums 

17. Post Midtown 

18. 2222 Smith

19. Camden Midtown 

20. Camden Travis

21. Camden McGowan Station

22. Drewery Place

23. The Travis 

24. Mid Main Lofts

25. Midtown on the rail

26. Temenos Apartments ro

27. New Temenos Apartments....

There's probably a dozen others that I'm forgetting but the point is the baby isn't going to be onesie sized for ever don't you think a forward thinking plan for that area shouldn't include a grocery store? 

People can work, play and go out to eat Downtown, but the live part is verrrry difficult without a car because Phoenicias is too specialized and Randall’s is OK but doesn't fit the bill. I mean I can live on what's there but I don't want to and I think with all the options further west most people wouldn't want to either unless they have a car and that brings us back to the monster parking podiums or standalone garages. 

New Orleans downtown and it's CBD doesn't have any more people than Houston's downtown and midtown and yet they have close to a dozen to our 3. And out midtown and down town is about 4 miles compared to theirs at under 2 miles.

I think if we keep the it wouldn't work mentality we won't ever develop anything vibrant. 

800 bell at 45 floors can host a ton of people, 1801 Smith are going to host hundreds more, there's 3 empty blocks next to 800 bell that can host thousands. If they get rid of Pierce that would free up a dozen more blocks that could potentially hold thousands more. 

The Greyhound and McDonalds site is ripe for development, so it's that fenced field across from Greyhound,  then there's those 3 Cadillac blocks, there's sooooo much potential in that area but if Randall’s is the only option then forget about it. There would have to be at least an HEB AND at least a target for it to be worth it.  Otherwise give me the Heights, Montrose,  Rice Millitary any day. If i have to drive over there to shop why not just live there?

It is the missing piece in the puzzle. Heck even the CVSs in New Orleans stock more options than the ones in downtown/midtown Houston.  Corner stores like Brothers sell everything from booze to cooked food. 

 

Downtown and midtown (eado and 3rd ward too) has the bones for a real walkable environment but if you can't walk to get every day items then what's the point on it being walkable. Your grocery allotment would definitely have to be bumped up if you are relying on Phoenicia or Randall’s for your everyday needs.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with all of this. I just think that a full-sized grocer would probably need to view putting the Midtown Randall's out of business as a necessity (an outcome that would not bother me, personally). I don't think even a robustly realized future catchment can realistically sustain both.

I also think it's unlikely that a lot of people further south than, say, McGowan would choose a downtown grocery store over the Midtown Whole Foods.

[HoustonIsHome]

3 hours ago, 004n063 said:

Yeah, I pretty much agree with all of this. I just think that a full-sized grocer would probably need to view putting the Midtown Randall's out of business as a necessity (an outcome that would not bother me, personally). I don't think even a robustly realized future catchment can realistically sustain both.

I also think it's unlikely that a lot of people further south than, say, McGowan would choose a downtown grocery store over the Midtown Whole Foods.

If Randall’s doesn't make it then oh well it didn't make it.  I wouldn't care either. And I think the residents in the McGowan area would still use a supermarket near 800 Bell.

The closest rail stations to Whole Foods is Ensemble station or McGowan Station. Both are about 9 blocks away from Whole Foods. 

If they build a Store on the ground level on one of the two empty blocks next to 800 Bell you know how many blocks away it would be? ZERO!!! There is 2 blocks right @ the rail stop and a 3rd one block away. 

 

Idk about you but I would rather going two stops to Bell and have zero walk than to go one stop to ensemble and then walk 9 freaking blocks or tabs no rail at all and walk 9 freaking blocks.

Don't under-estimate how convenient those blocks around 800 mail are to a pedestrian life.

But knowing us we will build a parking garage right on the rail, and the other 2 lots will be a drive up CVS and McDonalds drive thru 

Edited February 21, 2023 by HoustonIsHome

[houstontexasjack]

“H‑E‑B Downtown Market”

Put it on the ground floor of a super-mid rise scale structure. 
 

(*whispers*): If you build it, they will come…..

[cspwal]

My bet would be a Target in downtown and HEB in the east river development

[Caribomoa]

The original Humble Oil Building converted into the trio branded Marriott Springhill, etc

That building relocated to the 800 Bell which as this thread states is preparing for an all residential conversion.

800 Bell would move to Exxon’s mega suburban campus in Springwood Village as part of the mega integration and became the main operations for Exxon. In some 20-30 years, Exxon moves elsewhere and what happens to this campus? Something like the Watermark District in the old Conoco campus?

[ATH]

There is a new "For Lease" sign at this property.

[Avossos]

Huhhh

[Caribomoa]

On 3/19/2023 at 10:32 AM, ATH said:

There is a new "For Lease" sign at this property.

https://www.avisonyoung.us/properties/800-bell-st-houston-lease
 

The heck is going on here

[Houston19514]

Interesting. This is only a guess:  while exploring the residential conversion idea, they put it out there for lease.  Costs very little to do so - if they can snag a tenant, why not?

[Caribomoa]

3 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

Interesting. This is only a guess:  while exploring the residential conversion idea, they put it out there for lease.  Costs very little to do so - if they can snag a tenant, why not?

That’s what I was thinking too. The “For Lease” sign went up nearly instantly after the property was acquired. So it’s extremely unlikely that this is a change of mind after studying kind of thing.

[Ross]

20 hours ago, Houston19514 said:

Interesting. This is only a guess:  while exploring the residential conversion idea, they put it out there for lease.  Costs very little to do so - if they can snag a tenant, why not?

 

16 hours ago, Caribomoa said:

That’s what I was thinking too. The “For Lease” sign went up nearly instantly after the property was acquired. So it’s extremely unlikely that this is a change of mind after studying kind of thing.

I don't really get the point of putting out a sign. It's not like some guy is going to be walking or driving by and suddenly think "800 Bell is for lease? Cool, I need 1 million+ square feet of space for my startup". People who really need that sort of building will be talking with commercial real estate firms, not looking for for lease signs.

[Fortune]

2 hours ago, Ross said:

 

I don't really get the point of putting out a sign. It's not like some guy is going to be walking or driving by and suddenly think "800 Bell is for lease? Cool, I need 1 million+ square feet of space for my startup". People who really need that sort of building will be talking with commercial real estate firms, not looking for for lease signs.

I think that is done more so for branding/advertising for the firm marketing the property.