GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[Trae]

Yea I took a walk through Downtown on Wednesday and they were installing some on the Houston of Blues side... pretty exciting.

Houston of Blues?

[HtownWxBoy]

Houston of Blues?

SORRY... meant HOUSE of Blues.

[shasta]

I'm sure many of you will agree that the Houston pavilions suffered a major blow when the developer decided to pull out the residential portion of this project due to financial reasons. The residential portion would have at least guaranteed that someone would have to been there 24/7 and if reasonably priced may have attracted the type of resident downtown Houston desperately needs. This would have really made this project as a true mixed use center for that side of downtown and created synergy.

Knowing that the residential portion will not be included we have to wonder- How will the Houston Pavilions fare? Will it be an entertainment and restaurant Mecca as envisioned by the developers or will it be Bayou Place South and face sparse crowds at certain hours?

WHY IT WILL SUCCEED

1) Disco Green - This is going to be a blessing for this part of downtown and the day crowd around the park may lead to the night crowd frequenting the Pavilions a few blocks away. The question that remains to be answered will be how consistently will this occur?

2) Metro Rail- The location of the Pavilions is along the rail line and this is a great location for the current line and those heading to the Pavilions from the future rail extensions.

3)Lunch Time Crowd- The lunch time crowd in both the neighboring skyscrapers and the office component of the project will sustain the success of the restaurants at lunch time Monday through Friday. Hopefully, the trend here will not be like almost all of the rest of downtown- restaurants will have limited hours and very short hours on the weekends.

4) Houston House Apartments- News of a developer intending to spruce up the Houston House may be good for the Pavilions. The more reasonably priced housing near this project the better.

5) Future Development- This portion of downtown has plenty of room to grow and if designed intelligently this area could grow into a nice neighborhood and the Pavilions could definitely be a big part of it.

WHY IT WILL FAIL

1)No Residences. As stated before this will have a HUGE impact on the project and having so many people anchored to the project because they lived there would have turned this from a place you visit to a place where you call home. All of the tenants would have benefited from this in some way.

2)Location -Let's face it. the location as it currently stands is not the safest and most inviting spot in downtown.

3) One Park Place -True we are getting a new residential tower in close proximity to the project but I don't think a luxury apartment will have a significant impact on it. I doubt the resident of a second home 6,000 square foot penthouse in downtown Houston would be someone who contributes to the downtown Houston night life of the Pavilions on a frequent basis.

4)Houston Shops- This is a great parallel for the Pavilions. It involves restaurants, retail, is close to many offices and is very busy during the weekday lunch hour but is DEAD come late afternoon. Even the fronts facing the street are dead after 5. Of course the pavilions will have more of an entertainment flavor to it as Bayou Place does but will it be enough?

5) Not enough destination retail.- Do any of the tenants really excite anyone? Some of the restaurant and dining tenants are unique but again the Bayou Place also has unique dining and entertainment options and that has not reshaped that part of downtown as it should.

Of course I would love to see the Houston Pavilions become a huge success, spur development, and fuel an renewed interest in downtown never seen before but I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here. What do you guys think?

Edited November 7, 2007 by shasta

[musicman]

What do you guys think?

it's more simple than that. if the businesses there are good (have good food, drink, entertainment) it will succeed. if the businesses are mediocre, like bayou place, it won't take off.

[WesternGulf]

I agree that the Pavilions would have been a little more self sufficient if there were actual residents on the property 24/7, the hotel would have helped also, but I do not believe it will be "Bayou Place South" simply because of its location. There are NO residents that live in the vicinity of Bayou Place and the I-45 location is not exactly inviting either which makes it a pretty dead spot in downtown. Pavilions will not succeed on its own. That is why I like the fact that there will be other soft good retail places opening in the near vicinity. The only reason this area of downtown is not the safest is because there was no Houston Pavilions there to begin with. I am looking at what Houston Pavilions will spur in its vicinity. Too bad most of the historic commercial buildings were torn down and replaced with office buildings with nothing but lobby space on the bottom floors so we will be limited on how much retail will open around the Pavilions. By the way Disco Green does not seem as connected to this development as some make it out to be. That's just my opinion.

[ArchitecturalPRGirl]

Actually there are more residences closer to Bayou Place. I lived at the Rice Lofts and walked to the movies at Bayou Place among all of the other places around that part of downtown. There are other lofts within blocks such as Hogg Palace, Sabine Street, Franklin Lofts, St. Germain, Keystone Building and several others on nearby streets. I just wanted to point that out. I'm not sure how the Pavillions will do, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I work in a building one block from the Pavillions, so I can tell you that there aren't many restaurants in this part of downtown. We have the Park Shops and a few little quick casual restaurants in the tunnels, but there are only 3-4 actual restaurants to have lunch meetings or take clients to. We usually have to go to the other side of downtown. Some decent restaurants in the Pavillions are much needed.

I agree that the Pavilions would have been a little more self sufficient if there were actual residents on the property 24/7, the hotel would have helped also, but I do not believe it will be "Bayou Place South" simply because of its location. There are NO residents that live in the vicinity of Bayou Place and the I-45 location is not exactly inviting either which makes it a pretty dead spot in downtown. Pavilions will not succeed on its own. That is why I like the fact that there will be other soft good retail places opening in the near vicinity. The only reason this area of downtown is not the safest is because there was no Houston Pavilions there to begin with. I am looking at what Houston Pavilions will spur in its vicinity. Too bad most of the historic commercial buildings were torn down and replaced with office buildings with nothing but lobby space on the bottom floors so we will be limited on how much retail will open around the Pavilions. By the way Disco Green does not seem as connected to this development as some make it out to be. That's just my opinion.

Edited November 7, 2007 by ArchitecturalPRGirl

[Scharpe St Guy]

With the release of the new metro rail maps and seeing how HP is currently on rail it surprises me that a Theater is not included in the project.

1. University students and near by area residents could hop on the rail when it is completed and go downtown and to a movie

2. Businesses could rent the theaters for meetings or presentations during the day.

3. Being a East End resident the nearest "true" movie theater is the Edwards off Weslayan and 59, it would be nice to have another choice which would then pull us downtown more often. Edwards at Weslayan does not have any additional draws or places to go near by unless you consider the Mercedes dealership a draw!!!

I believe a movie theater is warranted in this location and would help the surrounding area, building tenants, and downtown. After all the theater at Bayou Place is an ok "art movie theater" but it's not what I would phrase a "true" movie theater showing just released mainstream movies.

Regardless I hope that HP is a Great Success,

Scharpe St Guy

[C2H]

I know, i'm frustrated that this developent is not including a movie theater in it like they have in Denver Pavilions. Angelika Movie Theater isn't really a movie theater to me, its an art show!

[RedScare]

Why this infatuation with a dying industry? Movie theaters havie been hemorrhaging attendance for years, and it will only accelerate with the advent of HDTV, DVDs, digital cable and satellite and inexpensive home electronics. The biggest demographic for movies is teens, not a desired group for a downtown entertainment center. And worse, the insistence by people of using cell phones in the theater makes it unenjoyable.

It makes no sense for a developer of an entertainment center in a high dollar real estate market like downtown to waste money on an expensive, space hogging, teen drawing, declining business as a theater. AND, there is already one a few blocks away, doing mediocre business....even if you don't care for it. In fact, Angelika would be exhibit number one why they should NOT put in a theater at HP.

[CSOM]

I know, i'm frustrated that this developent is not including a movie theater in it like they have in Denver Pavilions. Angelika Movie Theater isn't really a movie theater to me, its an art show!

I actually really enjoy the Angelika... it's in downtown so it's close to home, plenty of restaurants (not Bennigans, etc.) around it, not very many screaming kids, reasonable prices, etc... It's our new favorite theatre.

Ok, it may not have every latest blow-em-up "blockbuster" flick, but we've seen a lot of regular release films there this year including Ocean's 13, The Simpsons, Harry Potter and Knocked Up. Add the new east end rail coming near there and we're all about it.

[ricco67]

Of course I would love to see the Houston Pavilions become a huge success, spur development, and fuel an renewed interest in downtown never seen before but I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here. What do you guys think?

There is one variable you left out:

The fine visitors to our grand city that are staying at the various hotels. You would be amazed how often I'm asked if there is something closeby. There are also complaints that the Hyatt, Crowne Plaza, and the Doubletree are in the middle of nowhere when the businesses close down.

HP will be within easy walking distance from the following hotels:

Club Quarters

Magnolia Hotel

Alden Hotel

Hotel Icon

Holiday Inn Select

Hilton Americas

Hyatt Regency

Doublegree

Mariott Courtyard

Residence Inn

Four Seasons

Embassy Suites (If built)

Omni (when renovations are complete)

In addition to this are the various people that will hit HP after the various conventions.

As you can see, this is a substantial number of potential users of HP, its a safe assumption that at least 10-20% of the hotel residences will hit HP at least once during their stay.

[scarface]

I don't really understand why people get so bent out of shape about eliminating the residential. There will be other patrons close by like: One Park Place and other venues. Yes, i would've loved to see the residential with this development too, but either way, i think the development can only help downtown for the better in the long run. This will be a catalyst for other retail and help spur further residential development down the road.

[Jax]

I actually really enjoy the Angelika... it's in downtown so it's close to home, plenty of restaurants (not Bennigans, etc.) around it, not very many screaming kids, reasonable prices, etc... It's our new favorite theatre.

I agree with you about Angelika, I love it too. You can't beat Monday nights for students. Free popcorn and soft drinks , and the tickets are way cheaper than anywhere else, and it's convenient (at least for Rice students).

[memebag]

I agree with you about Angelika, I love it too. You can't beat Monday nights for students. Free popcorn and soft drinks , and the tickets are way cheaper than anywhere else, and it's convenient (at least for Rice students).

Not too long after the Angelika opened, they were the only theater in town showing the restored print of "Citizen Kane". That's my favorite movie. I've seen it at least a hundred times. I was very excited. I went on opening day.

They showed it at the wrong aspect ratio. It's Academy -- they showed it at 1.85:1.

I asked the manager to fix it and he told me that was impossible. He said that they didn't have the right lens (which was a lie, since they were using a spherical lens) and that there wasn't a theater in the entire southwest that could show a film in Academy aspect ratio. I tried to explain how he could reframe the image, but it was clear that he wasn't going to do anything.

If you're going to be an art house, don't butcher the movies.

I hate the Angelika. There are some sins that can never be forgiven.

[bkjones98]

They showed it at the wrong aspect ratio. It's Academy -- they showed it at 1.85:1.

I asked the manager to fix it and he told me that was impossible. He said that they didn't have the right lens (which was a lie, since they were using a spherical lens) and that there wasn't a theater in the entire southwest that could show a film in Academy aspect ratio. I tried to explain how he could reframe the image, but it was clear that he wasn't going to do anything.

Huh, learn something new every day. I had to wikipedia half of what you were talking about. Also, I just watched Citizen Kane for the first time last weekend. Rosebud!

[tanith27]

I agree, no main stream theatre is a good idea. I don't want to have something that ends up becoming a daycare for teens like the MarqE is. Anyone notice the large number of vacancies at that place?

[C2H]

I agree, no main stream theatre is a good idea. I don't want to have something that ends up becoming a daycare for teens like the MarqE is. Anyone notice the large number of vacancies at that place?

The way i see it, patrons are patrons. There needs to be a good mix of teens as well as adults to give the impression of an urban city. (No i'm not a child molester)

Hell, even new york is not exempt from having its share of teens on the block.

[memebag]

There needs to be a good mix of teens as well as adults to give the impression of an urban city.

That sentence sums up a lot of my distaste for these developments. Are we trying to make believe that Houston is an "urban city"? Is this all just a game of dress-up?

If Houston isn't an "urban city", then what is it? And why should it try to give that impression?

[Dallasboi]

That sentence sums up a lot of my distaste for these developments. Are we trying to make believe that Houston is an "urban city"? Is this all just a game of dress-up?

If Houston isn't an "urban city", then what is it? And why should it try to give that impression?

Hmmmm....i don't think you understand.

[RedScare]

Hmmmm....i don't think you understand.

I think he understands perfectly.

[crunchtastic]

I think memebag understands perfectly well. Some glossy building with overpriced t-shirts targeted to a fickle market somehow magically qualifies as urban, and therefore good?

[RedScare]

I think memebag understands perfectly well. Some glossy building with overpriced t-shirts targeted to a fickle market somehow magically qualifies as urban, and therefore good?

To some, apparently yes, just as some think lighting on buildings is more important than businesses actually working in them. It is symbolic of the ongoing HAIF struggle between those who define cities by who lives and works in them, versus those who define them by how they look as they drive by them on the freeway.

Style over substance, I suppose.

[Dallasboi]

I think he understands perfectly.

What I meant when I said that was........I think thats the wrong way to look at it....He asked why should houston play dress up if thats not the true character of the city......and i disagree with the playing dress up part.....Playing dressup would be equivelent to sprucing a city up two week before the superbowl and pan it off as if it was a clean sparkling city 365 days a year and in reality it will go right back to being the same gritty city it was before the event....or renting a BMW for the weekend and drving it around showing people your new car ....The HP situation is very different........I think it is part of a foundation thats needed to create a natural feel of vibrancy that we all desire......for example....instead of renting the bmw...its more like starting a savings account to hold the money that u are saving to PURCHASE the BMW..so it will become a rightful part of you....you then wont have to PLAY DRESS UP like you have a BMW...it will really be yours..........To make a long story short.......Houston won't be playing dress up ...they would be setting a foundation to build a natural vibrancy that all us Texans dearly seek.......Thats what I meant.......Oh and REd I hope I didn't bore u wit this one.....

Edited November 9, 2007 by Dallasboi

[crunchtastic]

I'm beginning to get this style/substance divide on HAIF.....

Wacky metaphors aside, I get your point, Dallasboi. But I couldn't disagree more. I've already got natural vibrancy to spare, and it didn't come from a shopping mall or a destination restaurant. Those are just as transient in a downtown showcase complex as they are in a strip center off 1-10.

[memebag]

What I meant when I said that was........I think thats the wrong way to look at it....

I was responding to C2H's statement about mixing teens and adults "to give the impression of an urban city". That sounds like C2H is more interested in how Houston looks to outsiders than how Houston functions. It also raises the question of what makes a city an "urban city".

I'm a big fan of organic, distributed, chaotic systems. Central planning, long term vision, and all that jazz bums me out. I love pedestrian friendly cities, but I don't think Houston will be one as long as private transportation is within the budget of the average citizen. I have a perverse fondness for the 80s downtown landscape that seemed designed to threaten pedestrians, as if one could easily be electrocuted for stepping out of your car.

[RedScare]

I was responding to C2H's statement about mixing teens and adults "to give the impression of an urban city". That sounds like C2H is more interested in how Houston looks to outsiders than how Houston functions. It also raises the question of what makes a city an "urban city".

I'm a big fan of organic, distributed, chaotic systems. Central planning, long term vision, and all that jazz bums me out. I love pedestrian friendly cities, but I don't think Houston will be one as long as private transportation is within the budget of the average citizen. I have a perverse fondness for the 80s downtown landscape that seemed designed to threaten pedestrians, as if one could easily be electrocuted for stepping out of your car.

Completely agree. I am about to declare war on "urban", "mixed use", and even "pedestrian friendly". These terms, when grabbed and used by developers and suburbanites to describe some faux downtown, or even a real downtown that they wish to sanitize, become just so much Disneyfication. While I am very pleased that HP is being built, the real reward will be the revitalization of the surrounding blocks by smaller groups, more so than HP itself. The bigger project may entice the mindless hordes with credit cards, which are needed to fund the other projects, but the best finds will not be in the bright and shiny shopping center at all.

[MidtownCoog]

Speaking of Bayou Place, as I type I see they are hanging a new business sign up. Looks like it will say "Merril Corporation". So a new tennant is good news. This is in the new part called "The Planet".

I wonder if this is the same Merril that used to be at Jackson @ McGowen?

[Jax]

I have a perverse fondness for the 80s downtown landscape that seemed designed to threaten pedestrians, as if one could easily be electrocuted for stepping out of your car.

Why?

[memebag]

Why?

Refreshing honesty, I suppose. There's something disgusting about a city built in a mosquito infested swamp for the purpose of refining and distributing petroleum products trying to present itself as a green oasis of foot friendliness.

[dbigtex56]

Refreshing honesty, I suppose. There's something disgusting about a city built in a mosquito infested swamp for the purpose of refining and distributing petroleum products trying to present itself as a green oasis of foot friendliness.

When was the last time you were bit by a mosquito? It's been quite a while since I have.

The heat and humidity of Houston surely doesn't exceed that of New Orleans, yet the French Quarter continues to draw people who enjoy walking its streets.

To take pride in Houstonians wallowing in their own filth seems peculiar.