GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[musicman]

I dare you to find one person who honestly believes Houston did a better job of preserving its city core than did Chicago because it seems as if Houston has many problems it is trying to correct.

From this it looks like Chicago is having its share of preservation issues too.

[C2H]

Pardon me for being horrendously blunt, but just how in the hell do you know? You do not live here. You do not see downtown during the day, at lunch, or at night. You are making sweeping statements with authority....authority you flat do not have. You are either flat out guessing, or you have taken the opinions of others as your own. But, since you do not know the context of their opinions, your opinion carries the weight of a guess.

Sorry if I offended YOU, but you frankly have no idea what you are talking about....even if you happened to guess correctly....which you have not.

Well i guess coming to grad school since last November doesn't qualify enough to know what i'm talking about. I guess coming back and forth to Houston on internships since 2003 that sometimes last 3-6 months don't qualify enough to know what i'm talking about. I guess my "GUESS" is just a ghetto fairytale!

[houstonfella]

This was a thread that started out being whether HP could be "Bayou Place Redux"

Anyhow, Chicago is a beautiful 40 degrees and H-town is a balmy 70 sumpin...... HP will be a great addition to downtown. Don't know how Chicago got dragged into this thread. But ..... Houston is doing OK. Downtown. Uptown. TMC. Beach. Bay. Westside..... otherwise. HP can and will be a magnet to draw locals and others to our downtown. As far as being "Bayou Place" - it doesn't have to be. Bayou Place is doing quite well. Hopefully, we can enjoy quality entertainment from both venues. Lucky Strike will put pizzazz into downtown like Angelika has done for Bayou Place. Can't wait to dine at HP's fab restaurants. Downtown Houston is being revitalized one block at a time.

[memebag]

It's all becoming clear to me. This is another Disney ride, but instead of giving the impression that you're sailing with pirates or in a haunted house, it makes you feel like you're in an "urban city". Like House of Blues gives the impression that you're eating authentic soul food and listening to down-home blues, but with only simulated danger and lots of safety equipment and ride operators. This won't be a real experience, but a carefully controlled simulation.

[N Judah]

It's all becoming clear to me. This is another Disney ride, but instead of giving the impression that you're sailing with pirates or in a haunted house, it makes you feel like you're in an "urban city". Like House of Blues gives the impression that you're eating authentic soul food and listening to down-home blues, but with only simulated danger and lots of safety equipment and ride operators. This won't be a real experience, but a carefully controlled simulation.

Houston has a lot of places like that. It's definitely not limited to this development.

Edited November 11, 2007 by N Judah

[Jax]

This is another Disney ride, but instead of giving the impression that you're sailing with pirates or in a haunted house, it makes you feel like you're in an "urban city"

I don't think that just because downtown developers are doing something "urban" or "pedestrian friendly" makes it automatically qualify as being artificial. It's located in the most "urban" district of Houston. if they built it in Sugarland or something I might agree with you, but not downtown.

[WesternGulf]

From this it looks like Chicago is having its share of preservation issues too.

Oh lord!

[C2H]

It's all becoming clear to me. This is another Disney ride, but instead of giving the impression that you're sailing with pirates or in a haunted house, it makes you feel like you're in an "urban city".

You couldn't be more wrong. Denver Pavilions doesn't come off as anything like what you described. Edited November 11, 2007 by C2H

[memebag]

I don't think that just because downtown developers are doing something "urban" or "pedestrian friendly" makes it automatically qualify as being artificial. It's located in the most "urban" district of Houston. if they built it in Sugarland or something I might agree with you, but not downtown.

Paving over a Civil War battlefield to build a Disney Civil War ride doesn't make the ride less artificial. It makes it more insulting and depressing, but not more "real".

Likewise, building a House of Blues in 'the most "urban" district of Houston' (why the quotes?) doesn't make that House of Blues anything more than a chain restaurant selling a sanitized imitation of an actual blues bar experience.

I'd much rather go to Palace Lanes than Lucky Strike because Palace Lanes is an actual bowling alley, built just for bowling, not for kooky kitschy hipness. Irony and bowling just don't mix.

You couldn't be more wrong. Denver Pavilions doesn't come off as anything like what you described.

I accept that it doesn't come off that way to you, but I just looked at their web site and I can guarantee it would to me. How can any development containing a Hard Rock Cafe do otherwise?

Don't get me wrong. I love going to amusement parks and carnivals to ride the rides. I just don't want my world replaced by them.

[banking214]

I actually really enjoy the Angelika... it's in downtown so it's close to home, plenty of restaurants (not Bennigans, etc.) around it, not very many screaming kids, reasonable prices, etc... It's our new favorite theatre.

Ok, it may not have every latest blow-em-up "blockbuster" flick, but we've seen a lot of regular release films there this year including Ocean's 13, The Simpsons, Harry Potter and Knocked Up. Add the new east end rail coming near there and we're all about it.

I agree that no screaming kids is a plus. The only thing that is annoying to me are the hours. I recently moved to Houston from Dallas and was bummed that the Houston location is closed during the day. I would see movies at the Mockingbird Station location during the days and crowds were decent.

[Jax]

Likewise, building a House of Blues in 'the most "urban" district of Houston' (why the quotes?) doesn't make that House of Blues anything more than a chain restaurant selling a sanitized imitation of an actual blues bar experience.

Is your problem only with the House of Blues, or with the whole development? And what exactly would be authentic for you? What should the developers do to make this something more than a "disney ride"? Are you saying that you don't like the tenants? Is everything new automatically "artificial", or only a development that has a House of Blues?

I don't know if I'd go there for soul food, but another concert venue in town (and one that I can ride the Metro to) is a good thing for me...

[memebag]

Is your problem only with the House of Blues, or with the whole development?

My problem is the replacement of life by simulacra. House of Blues is a perfect example, and Houston Pavilions will be another. Phil's being replaced by 59 Diner is probably the canonical example. Did you ever eat at Phil's?

What's a more rewarding experience: playing Guitar Hero 3, or playing a guitar?

And what exactly would be authentic for you?

Just about anything that wasn't an inside-out mall, I guess.

What should the developers do to make this something more than a "disney ride"?

Quit developing, I suppose, maybe get a job providing a more direct service? I'm no expert on developers.

Are you saying that you don't like the tenants?

I don't like the tenants, but that isn't really what I'm saying.

Is everything new automatically "artificial", or only a development that has a House of Blues?

No, everything new isn't automatically artificial. New things that try to look like old things are artificial. Things that mediate direct experience, that mimic things they aren't, that "give the impression of an urban city", those new things are artificial.

I don't know if I'd go there for soul food, but another concert venue in town (and one that I can ride the Metro to) is a good thing for me...

Cool. Maybe "BACK IN BLACK" will play there. They're an AC/DC tribute band playing the HOB in Dallas. It's probably as good as the real thing.

[Trae]

Oh lord!

He always pulls up strange articles. In my thread about METRO's rail plan, he pulled up seven year old articles written by O'Toole on how Portland development is failing along the rail lines.

[jayshoota]

I just noticed that the HP will have a Pete's Dueling Piano Bar. When I lived in Dallas we would drive all the way from Uptown to Addison just to go to this place and it was always packed. It should draw a lot of the midtown folks into the Pavilions. When they opened the one up in downtown Fort Worth the line was out the door for months.

btw, been reading the board for a few months now and finally joined, really enjoy the discussions. (Especially the ones about downtown since that is where I live and go to school.) I have been in Houston for 2 years now and love it.

[Trae]

They should probably get some kind of music/electronic store in there. Like FYE.

[nyc_tex]

My problem is the replacement of life by simulacra. House of Blues is a perfect example, and Houston Pavilions will be another. Phil's being replaced by 59 Diner is probably the canonical example. Did you ever eat at Phil's?

What's a more rewarding experience: playing Guitar Hero 3, or playing a guitar?

Just about anything that wasn't an inside-out mall, I guess.

Quit developing, I suppose, maybe get a job providing a more direct service? I'm no expert on developers.

I don't like the tenants, but that isn't really what I'm saying.

No, everything new isn't automatically artificial. New things that try to look like old things are artificial. Things that mediate direct experience, that mimic things they aren't, that "give the impression of an urban city", those new things are artificial.

Cool. Maybe "BACK IN BLACK" will play there. They're an AC/DC tribute band playing the HOB in Dallas. It's probably as good as the real thing.

In the world of PM, everything is simulacrum in some sort of pastiche. Using Borges' old metaphor, the map replaced the 'real' place long, long ago......America is intrinsically 'the map.'

No distinction between older versus newer. The brownstone that I live in, which was built in 1870, is no different the House of Blues, any of the current or future locations.

All objects and signs are copies of other copies of other copies for where there was no original...and thus is truth or the hyperreal.

Consequently, according to the Jean Baudrillard (Grand papa of PM), Disney is actually the 'most real and authentic' thing in America.

Edited November 16, 2007 by nyc_tex

[Jax]

They should probably get some kind of music/electronic store in there. Like FYE.

I wish they would open an Apple store. I know it won't happen, but I can dream can't I?

Edited November 16, 2007 by Jax

[memebag]

In the world of PM, everything is simulacrum in some sort of pastiche. Using Borges' old metaphor, the map replaced the 'real' place long, long ago......America is intrinsically 'the map.'

No distinction between older versus newer. The brownstone that I live in, which was built in 1870, is no different the House of Blues, any of the current or future locations.

All objects and signs are copies of other copies of other copies for where there was no original...and thus is truth or the hyperreal.

Consequently, according to the Jean Baudrillard (Grand papa of PM), Disney is actually the 'most real and authentic' thing in America.

I'll take Dick over Baudrillard any day. (That's Philip K. Dick, not the other kind.) He saw Disneyland as one of the most frightening places on earth. Your America might be the map, but mine is still America. Don't eat the menu.

[nyc_tex]

I'll take Dick over Baudrillard any day. (That's Philip K. Dick, not the other kind.) He saw Disneyland as one of the most frightening places on earth. Your America might be the map, but mine is still America. Don't eat the menu.

I'm just referencing the guy who is considered the seminal figure in postmodernism. That's all.

Besides maybe CW Mills who used the word first in 1959. Or Daniel Bell who termed 'post-industrialism' in the early 70s.

JB wrote the menu of the menu, not me. Don't go on a hunger strike because your tasteless food came from McDonalds.

Edited November 16, 2007 by nyc_tex

[memebag]

I'm just referencing the guy who is considered the seminal figure in postmodernism. That's all.

Besides maybe CW Mills who used the word first in 1959. Or Daniel Bell who termed 'post-industrialism' in the early 70s.

JB wrote the menu of the menu, not me. Don't go on a hunger strike because your tasteless food came from McDonalds.

Pomo has been dead since 1996. And that pose is out too, Sunny Jim. The new thing is to care passionately and be right wing.

[Jax]

Cool. Maybe "BACK IN BLACK" will play there. They're an AC/DC tribute band playing the HOB in Dallas. It's probably as good as the real thing.

I don't know much about the House of Blues (I don't think we have them in Canada), but I randomly came across this photo, which is apparently from a House of Blues. So by the looks of it, they have more than ACDC tribute bands. I consider the Maytals about as authentic as you can get, when it comes to old school Ska/Reggae. So yes, I am still glad there's going to be a concert venue on the Metro Rail that I can get to without driving.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cxcgirl/45952.../in/pool-toots/

And here's another musician playing at a House of blues that I consider authentic. It's a bit too expensive for me though.

http://www.hob.com/tickets/eventdetail.asp?eventid=49546

Having a House of Blues doesn't sound too bad to me.

Edited November 16, 2007 by Jax

[musicman]

So yes, I am still glad there's going to be a concert venue on the Metro Rail that I can get to without driving.

going to be a concert venue on the rail? you must not get out much.

Edited November 16, 2007 by musicman

[dbigtex56]

My problem is the replacement of life by simulacra.

I cheerfully admit, had to look this one up: it's the plural of simulacrum, and a welcome addition to my vocabulary.

"... by the late 19th century, it had gathered a secondary association of inferiority: an image without the substance or qualities of the original"

Thanks, memebag.

[Jax]

going to be a concert venue on the rail? you must not get out much.

What do you mean?

I didn't say I don't go out because I have to drive, I said I'd like to go to a venue where I don't have to drive.

[musicman]

What do you mean?

I didn't say I don't go out because I have to drive, I said I'd like to go to a venue where I don't have to drive.

there are several places where you can see shows near the rail line currently. this is nothing new.

[crunchtastic]

The theme-food, gospel brunch and company store crap is offensive, but House of Blues would provide booking competition for Warehouse and Continental Club, which will be a good thing for live music fans. And, possibly reach people who wouldn't have ventured downtown at all. Good example, recently my 65 year old dad in Katy wanted to go see Johnny Winter, but his only experience with the venue was ads in the Houston Press, and was not sure what he was getting himself into. Same show in HOB he would've gone without a second thought.

[Jax]

there are several places where you can see shows near the rail line currently. this is nothing new.

I guess it's just bad luck that none of them have ever hosted a show I wanted to see. There are some mega venues (Toyota Center and Minute Maid), and some small venues (bars), but nothing in between that I know of. I guess the music I listen to is too obscure to fill up Toyota, but draws a bigger crowd than will fit in most bars. Most of the shows I've been to have been at places like Warehouse Live.

How does HOB work. Do they have a restaurant like Hard Rock Cafe, and a separate area with a stage? Or is it all together? I wouldn't go there to buy a t-shirt or eat soul food, but I might go there to see Elvis Costello...

[crunchtastic]

How does HOB work. Do they have a restaurant like Hard Rock Cafe, and a separate area with a stage? Or is it all together? I wouldn't go there to buy a t-shirt or eat soul food, but I might go there to see Elvis Costello...

Very similar to Hard Rock. I think there is some variation among outlets, but the basic set up at the HoB I went to (New Orleans and Vegas) is restaurant, store, small and large stage areas. I would say capacity is similar to the small and large areas at Warehouse. At first I felt like a complete chump going to HoB in New Orleans, of all places, but I quickly got over myself when I realized the authenticity police weren't going to come bust me, and lord knows the Marsalis family doesn't care as long as you're spending money and supporting the music.

[memebag]

I cheerfully admit, had to look this one up: it's the plural of simulacrum, and a welcome addition to my vocabulary.

"... by the late 19th century, it had gathered a secondary association of inferiority: an image without the substance or qualities of the original"

Thanks, memebag.

You're welcome, dbigtex56. That Wikipedia page contains a line that's relevant to the Houston Pavilions:

In 1975, Italian author Umberto Eco expressed his belief that at Disney

[RedScare]

You're welcome, dbigtex56. That Wikipedia page contains a line that's relevant to the Houston Pavilions:

Would you rather go downtown, or ride the "Downtown" ride?

While I would likely agree with you in describing the House of Blues as a "blues disneyland", I would not do so with Houston Pavillions itself. HP is merely an outdoor shopping mall placed in the middle of downtown. It is neither a caricature of "urban", nor a simulacrum of urban. It simply is what it is...a shopping mall in downtown. To illustrate why I say this, let me compare HP to the Woodland's Market Street, and Sugar Land's Town Center. In each of these developments, building facades are constructed to look like old single building markets lining a block, whereas in reality, they are one building with numerous facades...not several buildings at all. One is invited to imagine he is walking down an old downtown block of individually constructed buildings, as opposed to the fact that they are an artfully placed series of strip centers of tilt wall construction. In contrast, HP does not attempt to deceive one into believing it is several buildings built over time. It is clear that the entire 3 block facility was built at one time by one developer for one purpose. And, downtown is, in fact, downtown, not a caricature of one.

Town Center and Market Street qualify as simulacrum. Houston Pavillions does not. House of Blues qualifies as simulacrum. The fact that it is located in HP does not make HP simulacrum. However, if each section of the mall were designed to look separate, and to give the impression of organic urban growth, it then would be.

My thoughts.