GreenStreet: Mixed-Use Development At 1201 Fannin St.

[mojeaux131]

Is there a way to add residential capacity downtown (or in a nearby area like the east side) that isn't only for the super rich? The more people that live DT (or close by), the more people will go to HP (sorry, just had to say it to make sure people know it's connected to the topic, heeeee )

[Subdude]

Shocker!

It's Thanksgiving weekend. Black Friday. Everyone knows that insane people head to the malls to get their "bargains."

That said, I do think Houstonians are "soft." We Houstonians have gotten so used to being inside (whether it's your home, car, work, tunnels, malls, etc...) that any type of weather excuse is now used from everything from why people don't shop, walk, attend sporting events, etc...

It's kinda sad. I read the UH sports boards and people were talking about how small the crowd was yesterday in large part due to 50 degrees and rainy weather. I attended the BC/Miami game yesterday. It was 28 at kickoff with wind gusts in the 30s and the place was PACKED.

It's time for Houstonians to GO OUTSIDE. Maybe it's because we spend so much time indoors that we don't really care how ugly our city can be from the outside?

There sometimes seems to be a somewhat moralistic tone when people talk about avoiding Houston weather and the tunnel system in particular. Is it really somehow better to be outside? Does it impart backbone or something? I would agree that you can almost totally avoid outside weather in Houston better than in almost any other city I know, but I never felt there was anything wrong about that. I suspect that if it werent' the case, it would be a lot smaller city.

[VelvetJ]

So, who is this Houston fellow of whom you speak? I would like to meet him, as he seems to control everthing that is built in the city.

I will venture away from my rule Redscare.

For those who do not realize it, there is no single person who controls everything built in Houston, and I find it quite interesting that some (not only you Redscare) can't seem to figure out what my reference to "Houston" is. It's all about tones. It has been my experience that different cities have different tones and those tones have a tendency to reflect themselves in not only the people but in the city environments as well. Is the fact so many buildings in Dallas have night lighting because a single person owns all of the buildings there? Does the fact Chicago overall has such a great variety of great architecture because a single individual has owned all of the buildings over the years? I've used this example a million times but would the Mercer design have EVEN BEEN CONSIDERED for Buckhead in Atlanta, or Uptown in Dallas, or Downtown San Diego (please no technical responses regarding zoning laws )? My point is I have watched the tone in Houston change in the past 10-15 years especially in architectural design and it has been tough to witness considering I witnessed a time of great architectural choices for the city. A tone seemed to have been set in Houston where forward-thinking ideas all but had disappeared, and where mediocre architecture as a whole seemed to had become the rule of thumb. There have been some exceptions of course like 1500 Louisiana, and the Chapel at St. Thomas, but overall the designs for Houston in recent history has been blah, and I personally believe it is because a tone has been set in the city where blah has become acceptable. So for every great piece we get, there are 4 more blah pieces to counter it.

I believe it was here where someone made a post not long ago about there being a tone in Texas and Houston where ANYTHING was possible. Being on the cutting edge was not a bad thing. Today, without skipping a beat someone is ready to jump with not only why something can't be done but why it shouldn't be done. It seems most people forgot a building does not have to be a trillion dollar spectacle to have a quality design.... MainPlace anyone?

I must say however in the past year I have seen signs of a possible tone tilt. I hope it continues.

So Redscare when you read my tagline and some of my posts, hopefully you will now understand my references to Houston is not to a individual person who controls all in the city, but to a tone and a overall attitude in the city that manifests itself in different things (SPOOKY).

[nyc_tex]

There sometimes seems to be a somewhat moralistic tone when people talk about avoiding Houston weather and the tunnel system in particular. Is it really somehow better to be outside? Does it impart backbone or something? I would agree that you can almost totally avoid outside weather in Houston better than in almost any other city I know, but I never felt there was anything wrong about that. I suspect that if it werent' the case, it would be a lot smaller city.

Impart backbone? Yes. Many Houstonians are pusses, as a consequence. Granted, I suspect many are transplants.

Is it better to be outside? Yes.

[Jax]

Is it better to be outside? Yes.

I agree. There are some people who are afraid of being outside, but there are many more who enjoy it.

[memebag]

Is it better to be outside? Yes.

Then go outside. Let the rest of us stay in.

When I was a kid, my folks tried to make me play T-ball. I hated it. It took place outside in the summer, when I would much rather be inside watching Speed Racer on channel 39. Eventually they stopped trying to make me go outside during the summer and everyone was happier.

As I age, I enjoy the heat more. A swimming pool helps a lot. But I will never hold it against someone for wanting to stay in the AC, especially downtown during the summer, especially wearing office attire.

I love the tunnels. Yesterday I had some free time and just wandered around in them for a while. I know I shouldn't love them, but I can't help it. The only improvement I can think of would be everyone shaving their heads and wearing white jumpsuits.

[Jax]

One day I too wandered the tunnels, but all I saw were fast food restaurants and the occasional jewelry store. I wasn't as impressed as everybody told me I would be. I don't see much reason to go down there unless its raining or I am in business attire in the summer (which I am not often in).

To each his own I guess. Some of us prefer to stay on the surface, and some prefer to live underground.

Edited November 28, 2007 by Jax

[musicman]

One day I too wandered the tunnels, but all I saw were fast food restaurants and the occasional jewelry store. I wasn't as impressed as everybody told me I would be. I don't see much reason to go down there unless its raining or I am in business attire in the summer (which I am not often in).

To each his own I guess. Some of us prefer to stay on the surface, and some prefer to live underground.

aren't you the person who likes Chipoltle? if so that is sad. just having a doctor's appointmnt is so more valuable than you willl claim? the med center provides so many options than you cant buy your girlfriend a bracelet.

Edited November 28, 2007 by musicman

[Jax]

aren't you the person who likes Chipoltle? if so that is sad. just having a doctor's appointmnt is so more valuable than you willl claim? the med center provides so many options than you cant buy your girlfriend a bracelet.

What?

[Subdude]

My point is I have watched the tone in Houston change in the past 10-15 years especially in architectural design and it has been tough to witness considering I witnessed a time of great architectural choices for the city. A tone seemed to have been set in Houston where forward-thinking ideas all but had disappeared, and where mediocre architecture as a whole seemed to had become the rule of thumb. There have been some exceptions of course like 1500 Louisiana, and the Chapel at St. Thomas, but overall the designs for Houston in recent history has been blah, and I personally believe it is because a tone has been set in the city where blah has become acceptable. So for every great piece we get, there are 4 more blah pieces to counter it.

I believe it was here where someone made a post not long ago about there being a tone in Texas and Houston where ANYTHING was possible. Being on the cutting edge was not a bad thing. Today, without skipping a beat someone is ready to jump with not only why something can't be done but why it shouldn't be done.

Fair point. I have said many times on HAIF that imo Houston has dropped from being a leader in architecture to deep among the second-rate. No, this isn't to say that every project has been poor, and the above names some good'uns, but at least with many larger high-profile projects since the 1980s, the bar seems to have been set very low. Of course, anyone can argue about what constitutes good architecture - that is what HAIF is supposed to support - but instead it often ends up with people complaining that it is "elitist" or "snooty" to criticize designs, as if there were some virtue in being accepting of second-rate projects.

Iwouldn't agree that Houston is a "laughing stock" when it comes to to architecture and urban development, but I doubt it's considered much of a role model either. The question is what do we want to be.

[Trae]

Some fresh air is good for your health.

[memebag]

Some fresh air is good for your health.

Did you bring enough for the whole class? Study of Toxins in Houston Air...

[PuroAztlan]

When I was a kid, my folks tried to make me play T-ball. I hated it. It took place outside in the summer, when I would much rather be inside watching Speed Racer on channel 39. Eventually they stopped trying to make me go outside during the summer and everyone was happier.

[musicman]

What?

too much post dancing with the stars celebrating. weird evening. and i just took someone to have plastic surgery.

Edited November 28, 2007 by musicman

[sarahiki]

I'm entering this thread late, but here's my 2 cents. I don't think any of these downtown projects (pavilions or bayou place) will really succeed if the target is mostly local people. We need to attract tourists. It kills me everytime I hear someone from outside Texas raving about San Antonio and RIVERWALK!!! Houston has much more to offer than San Antonio, but it's not packaged up as neatly and pleasingly as riverwalk, so tourists can't figure out where they're "supposed" to go. We need to copy SA. We need to turn the Bayou into Riverwalk and call it something else and suddenly we'll have a downtown scene.

I'm sure many of you will agree that the Houston pavilions suffered a major blow when the developer decided to pull out the residential portion of this project due to financial reasons. The residential portion would have at least guaranteed that someone would have to been there 24/7 and if reasonably priced may have attracted the type of resident downtown Houston desperately needs. This would have really made this project as a true mixed use center for that side of downtown and created synergy.

Knowing that the residential portion will not be included we have to wonder- How will the Houston Pavilions fare? Will it be an entertainment and restaurant Mecca as envisioned by the developers or will it be Bayou Place South and face sparse crowds at certain hours?

WHY IT WILL SUCCEED

1) Disco Green - This is going to be a blessing for this part of downtown and the day crowd around the park may lead to the night crowd frequenting the Pavilions a few blocks away. The question that remains to be answered will be how consistently will this occur?

2) Metro Rail- The location of the Pavilions is along the rail line and this is a great location for the current line and those heading to the Pavilions from the future rail extensions.

3)Lunch Time Crowd- The lunch time crowd in both the neighboring skyscrapers and the office component of the project will sustain the success of the restaurants at lunch time Monday through Friday. Hopefully, the trend here will not be like almost all of the rest of downtown- restaurants will have limited hours and very short hours on the weekends.

4) Houston House Apartments- News of a developer intending to spruce up the Houston House may be good for the Pavilions. The more reasonably priced housing near this project the better.

5) Future Development- This portion of downtown has plenty of room to grow and if designed intelligently this area could grow into a nice neighborhood and the Pavilions could definitely be a big part of it.

WHY IT WILL FAIL

1)No Residences. As stated before this will have a HUGE impact on the project and having so many people anchored to the project because they lived there would have turned this from a place you visit to a place where you call home. All of the tenants would have benefited from this in some way.

2)Location -Let's face it. the location as it currently stands is not the safest and most inviting spot in downtown.

3) One Park Place -True we are getting a new residential tower in close proximity to the project but I don't think a luxury apartment will have a significant impact on it. I doubt the resident of a second home 6,000 square foot penthouse in downtown Houston would be someone who contributes to the downtown Houston night life of the Pavilions on a frequent basis.

4)Houston Shops- This is a great parallel for the Pavilions. It involves restaurants, retail, is close to many offices and is very busy during the weekday lunch hour but is DEAD come late afternoon. Even the fronts facing the street are dead after 5. Of course the pavilions will have more of an entertainment flavor to it as Bayou Place does but will it be enough?

5) Not enough destination retail.- Do any of the tenants really excite anyone? Some of the restaurant and dining tenants are unique but again the Bayou Place also has unique dining and entertainment options and that has not reshaped that part of downtown as it should.

Of course I would love to see the Houston Pavilions become a huge success, spur development, and fuel an renewed interest in downtown never seen before but I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here. What do you guys think?

[lockmat]

uh-oh. it's coming

[PuroAztlan]

I'm entering this thread late, but here's my 2 cents. I don't think any of these downtown projects (pavilions or bayou place) will really succeed if the target is mostly local people. We need to attract tourists. It kills me everytime I hear someone from outside Texas raving about San Antonio and RIVERWALK!!! Houston has much more to offer than San Antonio, but it's not packaged up as neatly and pleasingly as riverwalk, so tourists can't figure out where they're "supposed" to go. We need to copy SA. We need to turn the Bayou into Riverwalk and call it something else and suddenly we'll have a downtown scene.

Yes, lets turn Houston into San Antonio.

[shasta]

I'm entering this thread late, but here's my 2 cents. I don't think any of these downtown projects (pavilions or bayou place) will really succeed if the target is mostly local people. We need to attract tourists. It kills me everytime I hear someone from outside Texas raving about San Antonio and RIVERWALK!!! Houston has much more to offer than San Antonio, but it's not packaged up as neatly and pleasingly as riverwalk, so tourists can't figure out where they're "supposed" to go. We need to copy SA. We need to turn the Bayou into Riverwalk and call it something else and suddenly we'll have a downtown scene.

It's sad that Houston has what could be have been gem of a waterway in the Buffalo Bayou downtown but didn't know how to or didn't care to design around it. Imagine if they created a bayou garden district around the bayou and actually honored it with unique 'houston' architecture instead of turning their backs on it.

[Subdude]

It's sad that Houston has what could be have been gem of a waterway in the Buffalo Bayou downtown but didn't know how to or didn't care to design around it. Imagine if they created a bayou garden district around the bayou and actually honored it with unique 'houston' architecture instead of turning their backs on it.

It's not that they don't know how to design around Buffalo Bayou. The Buffalo Bayou project put a lot of time and effort into rethinking how the bayou downtown could be redeveloped. The problem is lack of money and commitment to do it.

[memebag]

It's not that they don't know how to design around Buffalo Bayou. The Buffalo Bayou project put a lot of time and effort into rethinking how the bayou downtown could be redeveloped. The problem is lack of money and commitment to do it.

I remember my dad taking me down there in the mid 70s and telling me they were about to build all kinds of retail and pedestrian space around it.

[Standeck]

We need to turn the Bayou into Riverwalk and call it something else . . .

- Swampwalk

- Where Styrofoam Cups go to Die

- Ol' Brownie

- The Long Cesspit

- El Rio de Vagrantos

- ???

Seriously, the Bayou is a nice place to walk during the day but you're never going to have commercial development along it as long as it's part of the storm water system and can rise twenty feet in an hour.

[Jax]

Didn't San Antonio have the same problem with their river, until they engineered it not to flood, and cleaned it up?

From Wikipedia:

The River Walk was the idea of architect Robert Hugman in the late 1920s. As an alternative to paving over the troublesome San Antonio River, Hugman drew out a plan he called "The Shops of Aragon and Romula" which allowed for both flood prevention and commercial development. Hugman maintained his office along the shallow river, despite warnings that he would be "drowned like a rat" and its early reputation as a dangerous hole (The River Walk was declared off-limits to military personnel at one point). Hugman persisted, and his office can still be found next door to another early presence on the River Walk, the landmark Casa Rio restaurant.

Crucial funding came in 1939 under the WPA and resulted in the initial construction of a network of some 17,000 linear feet of walkways, about 20 bridges, and extensive plantings including the live oaks whose branches are visible from street level.

Through the following decades the network has been improved and extended, without losing its original character. One major extension of the River Walk was performed by the joint venture of two general contractors Darragh & Lyda Inc. and H. A. Lott Inc. to Tower of the Americas as part of HemisFair '68. That was also the year the Hilton Palacio del Rio was built, the first of many downtown hotels that leverage their slice of urban "riverfront."

Edited November 28, 2007 by Jax

[crunchtastic]

It's not that they don't know how to design around Buffalo Bayou. The Buffalo Bayou project put a lot of time and effort into rethinking how the bayou downtown could be redeveloped. The problem is lack of money and commitment to do it.

True, true. All of these plans can be viewed on the B.B. Partnership's website. The Riverwalk-style section is actually a canal that serves primarily as a flood control project between Buffalo and White Oak bayous. The plans are there, the obstacles are funding and rights of way.

FWIW, having lived, until recently, in SA the past 10 years, and having family roots there, the Riverwalk is a wonderful place and central to the city's identity. Locals go there, not just tourists, and it anchors all the city festivals (not to mention all those Spurs championship river parades, but that's another topic ....) In the 70s with the exception of a very small stretch, it was nearly as nasty as Buffalo Bayou. San Antonio's latest struggles have been maintaining local ownership of the dining and retail along the river, and trying to keep some shred of local authenticity. Hardly a surprise, this all came about from Mr. Fertitta attempting to throw enough money around, and turn the riverwalk into a mercado-themed Kemah.

[shasta]

It's not that they don't know how to design around Buffalo Bayou. The Buffalo Bayou project put a lot of time and effort into rethinking how the bayou downtown could be redeveloped. The problem is lack of money and commitment to do it.

Of course I know this (the Partnership) I'm talking about how the city grew and organized itself. They didn't think about the bayou as an asset. Imagine if the city (from the beginning) created a garden bayou district down to the bayou with architectural features and vegetation unique to Houston complete with breezeways, shade, housing, reaturants, retail, recreation, entertainment features mixed with nature that evolved over generations. It would be similar San Antonio but instead of a Spanish theme we would have a more lush bayou/ garden theme. This water feature should have been a great tourist destination and an inviting and unique part of downtown.

Case in point to reality I- 45 is built over the bayou instead of utilizing it as a bayou district and the Hobby center intentionally turned its back to the bayou during the design phase. I'm well aware and support the Buffalo Bayou plan. It is going to be difficult for them because 1) like you said they have to raise money and 2) they will be working to try to beautify something that has been abused for generations. I doubt the partnership can 'move the freeway' but I like that they are doing what they can with what is availiable but go back and look at their scheme and imagine the potential if everything was a blank slate. It would be very special and could define our city if it had been done right from the beginning.

Edited November 28, 2007 by shasta

[totheskies]

Making a Houston Riverwalk won't solve anything. The Houston Pavillions has a lot of potential, and is in a great area which can only improve with the infill and rail coming up. Obviously it will be nice for all of the millions of sports fans that venture downtown to have a place to walk, eat and do some shopping. This development is going to hit a homerun, and spur more highrise residential to boot. And the absolute worst case scenario is that we'll have one more area (besides Bayou Place to hangout downtown past 5 o'clock. Could this really be so gloomy.

Houston has been very slow to change, but things are about to pick up speed. Just wait and see.

Edited November 28, 2007 by totheskies

[sarahiki]

LOL

- Swampwalk

- Where Styrofoam Cups go to Die

- Ol' Brownie

- The Long Cesspit

- El Rio de Vagrantos

- ???

Seriously, the Bayou is a nice place to walk during the day but you're never going to have commercial development along it as long as it's part of the storm water system and can rise twenty feet in an hour.

[PuroAztlan]

Obviously it will be nice for all of the millions of sports fans that venture downtown to have a place to walk, eat and do some shopping.

I thought the answer was obvious.

Little experiment: Go downtown one night during a Rockets game and look at all the foot traffic from people walking to and from their vehicles.

Now imagine a few blocks away a giant 3 block, 3 story entertainment/dining/shopping complex is open for business. . . . .

And were not talking a 1 block, 2 story complex with most of the space taken up by some artsy-fartsy theatre.

[WesternGulf]

Making a Houston Riverwalk won't solve anything.

Of course not and I really do not believe that is what anyone is trying to get across. We nickname Houston the Bayou City although we have not embraced life on one of our few geographical feautures while this city has grown. We struggle to come up with identities for this city that are now a dime a dozen across this great country and Buffalo Bayou, Houston's birthplace, is no different although it did not have to be that way. We can only imagine what our city would look like if the city was actually built around our bayous and maybe our identity wouldn't be in so much of a crisis. My point is, it is sad we our just now realizing what potential our city could have been and now all we could do is salivate at some visions drawn out by the Buffalo Bayou Partnership and hope it will all be done in the next 20 years. Note this is in no way belittling the efforts made by the Buffalo Bayou Partnership to bring attention to the bayou.

[ricco67]

I hate to keep this thing off topic, but the reason why Buffalo Bayou never really got to be a piece of tourism like the Riverwalk in San Antonio is the fact that it's a functioning part of our flood system.

Yes, the Riverwalk can be blocked off, but the Bayou can't. It serves a function, it would not do well if restaurants and bars were put along the banks if they're going to be (granted, not THAT often) occasionally flooded out once a year or so by heavy rains upstream or locally.

[Jax]

Are you saying the river in San Antonio existed naturally in some natural configuration a part of it could be blocked off? Or does it not rain as much in SA? I'm sure it would be possible to engineer the bayou in such a way that a part of it would not flood, but I'm not so sure anybody wants to put that much money into it to actually do it. Maybe it was easier to engineer the river in SA to make a part of it floor proof. It would be interesting to know how much work had to be done to making the River Walk what it is today, and how much they relied on the natural configuration of the river.

From the map of SA it looks like there is a sort of loop, which is probably why that part of it doesn't flood. Is that loop natural or man-made?

Edited November 29, 2007 by Jax