Houston Aeros

[cloud713]

Woah.. $500 million expansion fee? That's more than a new stadium would cost. Yeah.. Getting an existing team for cheaper would be nice... Lol.

So you think Alexander is the one to make or break NHL hockey in Houston? No other wealthy Houstonians interested in investing in bringing an NHL team to our city?

[Houston19514]

Woah.. $500 million expansion fee? That's more than a new stadium would cost. Yeah.. Getting an existing team for cheaper would be nice... Lol.

So you think Alexander is the one to make or break NHL hockey in Houston? No other wealthy Houstonians interested in investing in bringing an NHL team to our city?

 

I think it's pretty much correct to say Alexander is the one...

 

For the NHL to play in Toyota Center, Alexander would either have to own the team or reach an agreement with the owner to allow the team to play in Toyota Center (which would probably kill the economics for the non-Alexander NHL owner).

 

A new hockey-specific arena could be built, of course; BUT IIRC, the Toyota Center lease has a non-competition clause which restricts the use of any city/county-funded facilities from competing with Toyota Center, so if the NHL arena was funded or subsidized by Harris County/Houston Sports Authority, they would not be able to have concerts or other entertainment in it, which might kill the economics.  The alternative is for the NHL owner to fully fund the hockey-specific NHL arena, an attractive idea, but probably not likely to happen.  (I remember the non-competition issue being raised when BBVA Compass Stadium was being built... not sure how they got around it.)

 

EDIT:  I just looked at the Toyota Center lease.  The non-competition provision only lasted for 10 years, so that is no longer an issue.

[cspwal]

http://www.houstonarchitecture.com/haif/topic/8623-bbva-compass-stadium-houston-dynamo-soccer-stadium/page-49#entry357418 

 

Here is the noncompete language from the Toyota Center letter agreement:

Prior to and during the term of the NBA Club's lease of the Arena, the Sports Authority and the City, shall not, directly or indirectly, finance, subsidize, provide any incentives for, or otherwise assist any venue, including the Compaq Center (except as provided in the preceding section), which could compete with the Arena for events of a type appropriate for the Arena and generally targeted at audiences in excess of 5,000, except for the GRBCC (and any expansions thereof), Enron Field, the new Rodeo/Football stadium, and school and university facilities and except for other facilities while the same are being used during the Olympics or Pan-American Games or similar events, which the Parties agree are not and will not be considered in competition with the Arena.

[cloud713]

Whew.. Good thing that clause is now expired.

So we need someone unexpected to step up to the scene and buy a team, while getting the same designers who pulled through on the BBVA Compass Stadium to design us a new NHL/mixed use arena on the cheap, in the parking lot north of BBVA.

[skwatra]

Maybe the owners of the Maple Leaf. They are doing pretty good and like hockey.

[tigereye]

Whew.. Good thing that clause is now expired.

So we need someone unexpected to step up to the scene and buy a team, while getting the same designers who pulled through on the BBVA Compass Stadium to design us a new NHL/mixed use arena on the cheap, in the parking lot north of BBVA.

Why do this ...just because Les Alexander is the point man? Toyota Center is designed to NHL specifications. We're not talking about Barclays Center here...

IMO, if the NHL ever comes to Houston, the team will play at Toyota Center as I just can't see this city agreeing to build another arena when an adequate NHL spec facility already exists. The owner is a debatable issue but the home venue definitely isn't.

[tigereye]

Woah.. $500 million expansion fee? That's more than a new stadium would cost. Yeah.. Getting an existing team for cheaper would be nice... Lol.

So you think Alexander is the one to make or break NHL hockey in Houston? No other wealthy Houstonians interested in investing in bringing an NHL team to our city?

It's not just Les Alexander's control of Toyota Center. At this point, I think he is the only person in Houston with remote interest to bring the NHL to town. The only other person ever that challenged him was Chuck Watson and that was more than 15 years ago.

[BigFootsSocks]

IMO if they want to bring an expansion team to Houston, now would be the perfect time to do it. We as a city are riding high on a Western Conference Finals run with the Rockets, a surprisingly adept 1st-place Astros with Altuve and the baseball God-I mean phenom in Correa, The Houston JJ Watts, a great Dynamo team, and World Cup superstar Carli Lloyd will return to the Dash (hopefully) soon. This is Houston's year in sports guys, hopefully we can find a market for this.

[cloud713]

Why do this ...just because Les Alexander is the point man? Toyota Center is designed to NHL specifications. We're not talking about Barclays Center here...

IMO, if the NHL ever comes to Houston, the team will play at Toyota Center as I just can't see this city agreeing to build another arena when an adequate NHL spec facility already exists. The owner is a debatable issue but the home venue definitely isn't.

I wonder if every city with NHL specific arenas have weird designed basketball arenas that would make for poor sight lines, or if some could technically play at their respective basketball arena too, but opted to build a specific hockey facility for one reason or another.

The way I was envisioning it the arena would be used for much more than just the NHL, being a full time ice rink for skating, ice performances, and local hockey leagues.to name a few.. Obviously the Toyota center couldnt host all of that while also putting on the numerous basketball games and concerts/events that happen on a regular basis.

[tigereye]

I wonder if every city with NHL specific arenas have weird designed basketball arenas that would make for poor sight lines, or if some could technically play at their respective basketball arena too, but opted to build a specific hockey facility for one reason or another.

NYC has MSG & Prudential Center (the latter being in Newark, NJ)

LA has Staple Center & Honda Center.

In both cases, the venues have their own teams. (Rangers, Devils, Kings, Ducks - not counting Isles as they will play in a basketball arena next season and Nassau was outdated)

I can't think of an example where a new NHL spec facility was built even though a modern NHL rink spec facility already existed. In most cities that have multiple arenas, it's because one is built to NBA spec (which has a bowl designed to fit around an NBA court), and the other built to NHL rink spec. Phoenix and Miami are good examples, although both are likely regretting this decision now as the NHL spec facilities in both cases were built in the suburbs while the NBA arenas were built downtown. Coincidentally, both NHL teams out in the suburbs are failing financially compare to their respective NBA counterparts. It would be wise for Houston not to repeat their mistakes.

[samagon]

If they did bring hockey to Houston (which I doubt), they'd have to built a new stadium, it was Toyota center that didn't want the Aeros back, as they felt they could make more money on concerts that packed the house rather than a hockey team that would pack on average 8000. 

 

I would assume that if they could bring in a NHL team they'd do about as well in attendance as LA, or Dallas, somewhere around 17,000 -18,000. Would that be enough to convince Harris county that it's going to make more on 41 NHL games than 41 concerts? 

 

My bet is that the woodlands, or similar courts an AHL team and builds an arena for them before we get a NHL team in Houston. At that point, we're going to not get a NHL team.

 

It makes sense though if you look at what the skeeters have done for Sugarland, I don't know about you guys, but I have more people posting on FB that they are going to a skeeters game than I do people going to astros games.

[cloud713]

If they did bring hockey to Houston (which I doubt), they'd have to built a new stadium, it was Toyota center that didn't want the Aeros back, as they felt they could make more money on concerts that packed the house rather than a hockey team that would pack on average 8000.

I would assume that if they could bring in a NHL team they'd do about as well in attendance as LA, or Dallas, somewhere around 17,000 -18,000. Would that be enough to convince Harris county that it's going to make more on 41 NHL games than 41 concerts?

My bet is that the woodlands, or similar courts an AHL team and builds an arena for them before we get a NHL team in Houston. At that point, we're going to not get a NHL team.

It makes sense though if you look at what the skeeters have done for Sugarland, I don't know about you guys, but I have more people posting on FB that they are going to a skeeters game than I do people going to astros games.

the first part is great news for my more cohesive sports district fantasy of adding a 4th downtown area arena across the street from BBVA. i had similar assumptions about the size too. good point about The Woodlands, though i secretly hope that doesn't happen so we can get NHL in downtown (once an NHL team happens I'm down to see more suburban hockey league expansion). the AHL hockey stuff is great for the suburbs, but professional sports need to be in the core IMO.. if it's one or the other rather have NHL add to our gentrifying core than see another AHL team in an already thriving suburb.

back to the backing houses and convincing Harris County a new arena is a good idea..

a list of a few ideas for events in the downtown/eado hockey arena..

- NHL Hockey

- AHL Hockey tournaments and regional games. like you said, The Woodlands could sustain a team, and possibly eventually the Katy and/or Clear Lake areas to name a few. have regional face offs at the bigger arena due to the larger crowds, and hopefully draw in some national tournaments with the new venue.

- Ice Events (kids shows like the Disney on Ice series.. practically any new popular animated film could be choreographed into a hit ice show. even bring back some of the old classics.. and then performances more geared towards adults, maybe like a Cirque De Soleil, or Broadway on ice type performances?

- "Summer Camp" Ice Skating lessons and what not for kids

- Local kids Hockey League tournaments - I assume there are hockey teams for young people around the city?

- Collegiate ice stuff like NCAA(?) teams for UH, Rice, TSU, etc..

- Public Ice Skating when the rink is available. maybe even a weekly "all night skate" type thing one night on the weekend (depending on the rink schedule)..

i think that would be enough to start making a case to Harris County that a new dedicated ice arena in the core could be feasible/sustainable. if only... heh

[Purpledevil]

I'm going to be the devil's advocate here, (no pun intended with my screen name) I don't know how old any of you are, however I can certainly remember Houston thinking they had an invitation to the NHL in hand, signed, sealed, and delivered, with the original Houston Aeros. This was back in the 70s. The World Hockey League folded, and 4 WHL teams were allowed to migrate to the NHL as expansion teams. Houston just KNEW we had a ticket to the dance, because the original Aeros had a pretty good following and a successful franchise. When it all came to a head, Hartford's Whalers were invited, so were the Winnipeg Jets and Quebec City, but the Aeros...well they folded, because Houston is just not a hockey town and the support to overhaul The Summit to NHL specifications just wasn't there.

The Aeros have been rebirthed twice now, the latest incarnation now sporting the name Iowa Wild. If you saw an Aeros game live, even after hoisting a couple of Calder Cups and placing banners up in the rafters, you'd know first hand that (much like Atlanta) the desire to support an NHL franchise in Houston is largely not there. You've got your fanatics like me, that love the thrill of a hockey game breaking out in the middle of the gloves and haymakers getting tossed, but there's just not enough of us to support a hometown team. Chuck Watson tried to make it happen, even Les Alexander was ready to pony up the money. Both realized what their return would be on such an investment, and backed out. Watson retained the IHL Aeros, Alexander gave us the 4x World Champion Houston Comets instead.

To even ponder building another stadium for any professional league franchise, much less for a hockey team, is preposterous at best and assinine at worst. Toyota is perfectly capable of becoming the home venue for the Houston NHLs, Aeros, Wombats, or whatever clever name that may arise. It was built to accommodate an NHL team, since that was a big argument against expanding the NHL to Houston due to The Summit's layout. Then you've got the monstrosity of an idea to build another 70k+ football stadium next door to the original one, and 3 brand new stadiums all within a block or two of each other in downtown. And folks, I've got bad news for you. In another 15-20 years, the cycle will start all over again, because Reliant/NRG/Whatever will be old and dilapidated by NFL standards, as will Toyota, as will Minute Maid.

I mean, where does it all end?

There are a large number of superb ideas from several great people that frequent this forum, but friends and fellow Houstonians, this just isn't one of them.

[cloud713]

Thanks for the history lesson and reality check. Admittedly my wishes for an NHL team/4th stadium in downtown are mainly so we can have a stronger identity to our sports district, and maybe even lure an Olympics into town to boost our cities international image. Heh.. An NHL team would be awesome, I love watchimg hockey games.. But I agree it would take some work to make it financially feasible, hence all the other programs I mentioned, many of which could bring in large amounts of income (ticket sales and concessions revenue from all the performances and non NHL hockey events would be big earners to helping sustain a team/venue.. And the events that don't bring as much bang for your buck (open public skating, kids summer camps, host venue for local youth hockey tournaments, and collegiate events) help engrain a hockey culture into our youth/fellow Houstonians that hasn't existed before in Houston due to our lack of ice hockey facilities and programs.

I'll be the first to agree with you purpledevil.. It's a long shot. But it's fun to think about and I don't think entirely impossible.

[cloud713]

As for the cycle starting all over and "where does it end".. How big of a footprint is NRG Stadium? Trying to figure out how many downtown/EaDo blocks it would need.. Obviously that's the odd man out, not grouped with the rest of the professional venues. It would be great to bring that to the downtown area with the others in the next cycle.

Which brings me to my next question.. Would it be a good idea to earmark a location for the new football stadium in the downtown/EaDo area to prevent urban growth from encroaching on all of the potential land options for a development that large? There is the 6 block super parking lot north of BBVA (obviously it would lose the western 2 blocks in the i45 realignment) I thought would make for a great location for a new arena. It's surrounded by pretty mundane development on the north and east sides too so it could expand to as many as 9 blocks for a football stadium. Unfortunately I can't seem to figure out how the Rockets could get a new arena on the light rail line while remaining a singular sports district in that part of downtown/EaDo, but it would be neat having a large development book ending the Bastrop Promenade on the south side.. There are 4 largely undeveloped blocks down there (sans a strip of townhomes), so theoretically a new basketball arena could go there? (Obviously at least one downtown stadium would have to be moved next time in order to rebuild/shuffle the others around without disrupting any of the sports seasons).

Doing a lot of thinking out loud here. Welcome to the fantastical development world that is Clouds head.. Heh

Seriously though, do yall agree we should earmark at least one large location on the east side of downtown for a future stadium to prevent it from being privately bought/developed in the meantime? A massive collection of surface parking for another 20 years would admittedly suck, but maybe they could build a wood framed apartment complex and make enough money in the mean time to warrant building the complex only to tear it down in 20 years time?

[Sunstar]

The only way I see this happening is if they are able to relocate an established team that can be competitive in year 1, similar to how Dallas landed the Minnesota North Stars, who were already a really good team. So in other words, buy a Stanley Cup champion.

 

I don't see Houston having the patience to wait 5-6 years for an expansion team to become competitive. We're still waiting on the Texans to do something and they've been here for 12 years. 

[Purpledevil]

Good observation, Sunstar. If we were to see this happen, the team would have to hit the ground running. The Texans have the benefit of being a football team in a football crazy State. A hockey team wouldn't have the same luxury. They send a mediocre or bad team out on the ice, and it wouldn't be long until the arena attendance would be rather thin.

Exactly the point Cloud made. Rock concerts, the circus, heck even the WWE's house shows would outdraw a hockey game if we send a bad team out on the ice for more than a season. We'd need a situation like Colorado had. They picked up the Nordiques from Quebec City, which was a decent team. The year they debuted in Colorado, they won the Stanley Cup. Now, that's not the only thing it took to be successful in Denver, but it sure didn't hurt. The team is currently in good shape, with a solid fan base.

On the other side of the spectrum, there's the Thrashers, who relocated a Canadian team to Atlanta, toiled in mediocrity for a few years, and left town as soon as they could get out of their lease for Winnipeg Manitoba last season.

Cloud, I'd vote against earmarking any property near downtown. I really don't believe the next wave of stadiums will be located downtown. That's another cycle right there, entertainment venues started off in downtown Houston, then moved to the "outskirts" of town when the old girls like Sam Houston, Buff, and Jeppessen became obsolete. The Dome was built out in the middle of nowhere in '65. The Summit wasn't exactly surrounded by the vast amount of commercial property it is now in '75 either. This wave of new sports complexes returned to inside or near downtown, with the glaring exception of NRG, which to me was a mistake. NRG, in my mind, should be standing where BBVA currently does, but that's an entirely different argument in itself.

My thought is that when Minute Maid, Toyota, BBVA, and NRG become "obsolete", our new ballparks will move out to the exurbs again, giving each of them ample room to surround themselves with entire entertainment complexes, either owned wholly by the teams themselves, or in combined arrangement with the county they will be built in.

Maybe then, we'll get our damn amusement park back, lol!

[cloud713]

Haha. For the sake of romanticising urbanization, I would prefer the stadiums stay in the core. Also out of sheer convenience/having a central location. Plus the light rail connectivity to the stadiums is fantastic. The Rangers are rumored to be moving back to downtown when the Arlington lease is up. I guess they see a benefit to having it in the core.

[tigereye]

Good observation, Sunstar. If we were to see this happen, the team would have to hit the ground running. The Texans have the benefit of being a football team in a football crazy State. A hockey team wouldn't have the same luxury. They send a mediocre or bad team out on the ice, and it wouldn't be long until the arena attendance would be rather thin.

Exactly the point Cloud made. Rock concerts, the circus, heck even the WWE's house shows would outdraw a hockey game if we send a bad team out on the ice for more than a season. We'd need a situation like Colorado had. They picked up the Nordiques from Quebec City, which was a decent team. The year they debuted in Colorado, they won the Stanley Cup. Now, that's not the only thing it took to be successful in Denver, but it sure didn't hurt. The team is currently in good shape, with a solid fan base.

On the other side of the spectrum, there's the Thrashers, who relocated a Canadian team to Atlanta, toiled in mediocrity for a few years, and left town as soon as they could get out of their lease for Winnipeg Manitoba last season.

Cloud, I'd vote against earmarking any property near downtown. I really don't believe the next wave of stadiums will be located downtown. That's another cycle right there, entertainment venues started off in downtown Houston, then moved to the "outskirts" of town when the old girls like Sam Houston, Buff, and Jeppessen became obsolete. The Dome was built out in the middle of nowhere in '65. The Summit wasn't exactly surrounded by the vast amount of commercial property it is now in '75 either. This wave of new sports complexes returned to inside or near downtown, with the glaring exception of NRG, which to me was a mistake. NRG, in my mind, should be standing where BBVA currently does, but that's an entirely different argument in itself.

My thought is that when Minute Maid, Toyota, BBVA, and NRG become "obsolete", our new ballparks will move out to the exurbs again, giving each of them ample room to surround themselves with entire entertainment complexes, either owned wholly by the teams themselves, or in combined arrangement with the county they will be built in.

Maybe then, we'll get our damn amusement park back, lol!

A. The Atlanta Thrashers were an expansion team (2002 wave) that failed and moved to Winnipeg in 2011 to become the NEW Winnipeg Jets. Because of a failed expansion hockey team in Atlanta, this is a prime example of why Houston's best route to succeed in the NHL is to get an established team (like the Coyotes or Panthers) and move them instead of going the expansion route, like Atlanta.

B. The Canadian team you're attempting to reference that moved to the U.S. and is failing is the OLD Winnipeg Jets, whom couldn't get a new arena back in 1996 and moved to Phoenix to become the Coyotes.

C. I hate to again crush everyone's dreams of a 4th arena in town but Toyota Center was built for hosting BOTH hockey & basketball. It's a modern, multipurpose facility and it's virtually safe to say if Houston ever gets an NHL team, this will be their home venue. It was hard enough trying to get a new soccer stadium built for a 2-time league champion. How on earth can any municipality in the area sell a new arena to its constituents when a modern multipurpose arena already exists Downtown? Houston has a better chance at building a 100-story supertall then it does of constructing a 4th, hockey-only arena.

What everyone should be dreaming up is who could own a team in town besides Les Alexander. I think if Les had some competition (like he used to vs. Chuck Watson), it would force him to make a move to land a team.

[tigereye]

The only way I see this happening is if they are able to relocate an established team that can be competitive in year 1, similar to how Dallas landed the Minnesota North Stars, who were already a really good team. So in other words, buy a Stanley Cup champion.

I don't see Houston having the patience to wait 5-6 years for an expansion team to become competitive. We're still waiting on the Texans to do something and they've been here for 12 years.

Dallas did not win its lone Stanley Cup until 1999, 6 years after its relocation. But they were competitive in the years leading up to the Cup run.

The better team to illustrate your point of buying a champion is the Colorado Avalanche, the only team to win a Stanley Cup in its first season after relocation (1996). Trading for Patrick Roy also helps.

[tigereye]

UPDATE: Houston did not submit a formal bid for NHL expansion by the league's deadline for bids last night. And surprisingly, neither did Seatttle, Kansas City, Portland, Milwaukee, even nothing for a second Toronto area team.

In fact, only Quebec City and Las Vegas submitted bids for the 2 open spots.

http://deadspin.com/why-only-two-cities-submitted-bids-for-nhl-expansion-te-1719241737?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_facebook&utm_source=deadspin_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

[tigereye]

Coyotes appear to be staying put in AZ

http://bit.ly/1MqcUB0

[tigereye]

The wait might be over. Fertitta was in negotiations with the NHL over the Coyotes as recently as this month.

 

https://twitter.com/markbermanfox26/status/1072553119706427392?s=21

 

Now AZ sports radio reporting a sale is imminent. And then hen there’s this tweet from the Sr Policy Advisor for the Mayor of Phoenix. 

 

https://twitter.com/thetonymotola/status/1075904388302962688?s=21

[Naviguessor]

Scoop. Great for Houston, Tillman, Toyota Center and downtown. Looking forward to a spashy announcement from Fertitta. 

[j_cuevas713]

There's no doubt they are coming to Houston. I've watched sports my whole life and the fact the team had to move to the central division and face teams not even close to where they are geographically is an easy indicator as to why the NHL expanded to Seattle. 2019 is going to be a massive year for this city. 

[kennyc05]

Let's go Houston Aeros!!!

[Blue Dogs]

How long were the Houston Aeros in existence ?

[Naviguessor]

Let me google that for ya. 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston_Aeros_(1994–2013)

[Tumbleweed_Tx]

When i think of the Aeros, I think of the Gordy Howe era Aeros, 1972-1978.

[Ross]

3 hours ago, Toopicky said:

Let him build his own arena .... no more taxpayer money to support billionaires

Hockey would likely be played in Tiyota Center, although a better choice would be to use The Summit.