Pedestrian Downtown

[august948]

20 minutes ago, mollusk said:

Isn't moving cities part of the plot of Mortal Engines? 

 

 

Now you're talking...let's go mobile and hunt down Austin and Dallas.  Then again, we might not want to absorb them....maybe just push them into Oklahoma.  😛

[AnTonY]

9 hours ago, august948 said:

 

Well, it's true the east side does have certain amenities that differentiate us from Dallas....

 

It the west side becomes less popular, that'll means less traffic.  I'll be looking forward to that.

 

It's just funny how the city ended up focusing itself on the tiniest, dingiest, most sensitive portions of its waterway. But lo and behold, the parts that are actually grand and impressive are wasted on pollutive industry.

 

Reclaiming the bayou will definitely be a true game-changer for the city when it comes to connecting people here with the outdoors.

[cspwal]

I think it's because Allen's landing is as far upstream as was navigable on Buffalo bayou back in the day, probably to leave room for expansion.  Industry kept going downstream, because they could have access to the water for docks

[mollusk]

2 minutes ago, cspwal said:

I think it's because Allen's landing is as far upstream as was navigable on Buffalo bayou back in the day, probably to leave room for expansion.  Industry kept going downstream, because they could have access to the water for docks

 

IDK whether it was so much to leave room for expansion as it was that the town of Harrisburg was already there, around where the Loop crosses the ship channel (which was itself a massive expansion of the bayou and the San Jacinto River after their confluence).

[AnTonY]

I believe Harrisburg was the site of a land dispute, because the owner died before the city founders arrived. Ironically, the area is now within Houston city limits. Go figure.

[august948]

28 minutes ago, AnTonY said:

I believe Harrisburg was the site of a land dispute, because the owner died before the city founders arrived. Ironically, the area is now within Houston city limits. Go figure.

 

Probably didn't help that Harrisburg was burned to the ground during another land dispute in April of 1836.

[Texasota]

Wait what do we mean by Downtown? The existing neighborhood or the concept? What are we moving? The people? But the population downtown is growing! The center of population? That's not downtown! The center of activity? That's only sort of downtown and only pretty recently after the destruction of the 70s and 80s.

 

What are we talking about? What does any of this mean?

[kbates2]

9 minutes ago, Texasota said:

Wait what do we mean by Downtown? The existing neighborhood or the concept? What are we moving? The people? But the population downtown is growing! The center of population? That's not downtown! The center of activity? That's only sort of downtown and only pretty recently after the destruction of the 70s and 80s.

 

What are we talking about? What does any of this mean?

 

It's simple, we move the abominations of the 70s and 80s physically, move the people in the spiritual realm, move the concept to the center of the east.  

[AnTonY]

2 hours ago, Texasota said:

What are we talking about? What does any of this mean?

 

It's quite obvious.

[mollusk]

1 hour ago, AnTonY said:

 

It's quite obvious.

[bobruss]

I think this train has left the tracks.

[Texasota]

11 hours ago, AnTonY said:

 

It's quite obvious.

 

Perhaps the most helpful possible response. Respectful, thoughtful, considerate of the inherent value of conversation to the exploration of ideas, the furthering of knowledge, and human advancement in general. 

[AnTonY]

4 hours ago, bobruss said:

I think this train has left the tracks.

 

Of course it has, people are too busy dancing around the answer and bloviating to infinity rather than acknowledging the point and its nuances. Reefmonkey did this a lot, and it really kills the quality of discussion.

Edited April 4, 2019 by AnTonY

[cspwal]

5 hours ago, bobruss said:

I think this train has left the tracks.

 

It's an airplane now

[bobruss]

I don't know why I'm getting into this, but ok  I'll take the bait.

First the only thing that has to be moved is the confluence of White Oak Bayou with Buffalo Bayou to the eastern side of downtown.

This has been discussed and is one of the best options to solve the only problem with downtown.

Why move downtown from its original location of over 150 years.

If White oak was re-channeled to the east side of downtown where there is plenty of room for it to spread out then we wouldn't have the Fannin and SanJacinto 

area bottleneck  on Buffalo Bayou to slow the flow, and cause backup in downtown.

Also it would create a new area for development in the near north downtown island that would be formed by the moving of White Oak..

All of the infrastructure and civic centers are downtown. Not the Uptown satellite city.

Besides there was no serious thought for a well laid out masterplan of the Galleria area. It was just plunked down on some open land and has grown into a very unmanaged area until recently. Not even a park for all of those Uptown galleria residents , and don't cry Memorial Park. You and no one else that lives in those high rises are going to walk their pooch 3 miles for a potty break.

The argument for the east is pretty much a no brainer. You tell Exxon, Shell, Goodyear, Rohm & Haas, Lubrizol, ITC, etc. etc. etc. that they need to move to Corpus Christi, because we think we went the wrong direction with the city. A lot of that beautiful land is so poisoned by chemicals and industrial manufacturing that I'm sure the ground in some areas glows at night .

Now I won't argue that it is pretty land but that's not the way the Allen Bros. planned it and I guess "Go West", in America, means go west. Look at every major city in at least Texas and for the most part the majority of growth has occurred on the western and northern sides  of all of the big cities.

You don't just say I want downtown to move because its not as good a spot as somewhere else. Just rectify the problem.

[Nate99]

Here's a dumb idea:

 

Dredge the bayou and make it navigable all the way to Uptown. If I'm thinking really ambitiously, go all the way to the Barker reservoir and make a lake. Put that in your Riverwalk and smoke it!

[bobruss]

Good luck through River Oaks.

[august948]

3 hours ago, AnTonY said:

 

Of course it has, people are too busy dancing around the answer and bloviating to infinity rather than acknowledging the point and its nuances. Reefmonkey did this a lot, and it really kills the quality of discussion.

 

You mean this kind of bloviating?

 

On 4/2/2019 at 3:59 PM, AnTonY said:

With upcoming pushes farther east along with bayou with East River and the Partnership, the location of downtown is going to get inferior real quick. The abominations of the 70s-80s already seem to have done much of the work, anywho.

 

[AnTonY]

2 hours ago, august948 said:

You mean this kind of bloviating?

 

Nope, that's a clear, solid point.

 

3 hours ago, bobruss said:

I don't know why I'm getting into this, but ok  I'll take the bait.

First the only thing that has to be moved is the confluence of White Oak Bayou with Buffalo Bayou to the eastern side of downtown.

This has been discussed and is one of the best options to solve the only problem with downtown.

Why move downtown from its original location of over 150 years.

If White oak was re-channeled to the east side of downtown where there is plenty of room for it to spread out then we wouldn't have the Fannin and SanJacinto 

area bottleneck  on Buffalo Bayou to slow the flow, and cause backup in downtown.

Also it would create a new area for development in the near north downtown island that would be formed by the moving of White Oak..

All of the infrastructure and civic centers are downtown. Not the Uptown satellite city.

Besides there was no serious thought for a well laid out masterplan of the Galleria area. It was just plunked down on some open land and has grown into a very unmanaged area until recently. Not even a park for all of those Uptown galleria residents , and don't cry Memorial Park. You and no one else that lives in those high rises are going to walk their pooch 3 miles for a potty break.

The argument for the east is pretty much a no brainer. You tell Exxon, Shell, Goodyear, Rohm & Haas, Lubrizol, ITC, etc. etc. etc. that they need to move to Corpus Christi, because we think we went the wrong direction with the city. A lot of that beautiful land is so poisoned by chemicals and industrial manufacturing that I'm sure the ground in some areas glows at night .

Now I won't argue that it is pretty land but that's not the way the Allen Bros. planned it and I guess "Go West", in America, means go west. Look at every major city in at least Texas and for the most part the majority of growth has occurred on the western and northern sides  of all of the big cities.

You don't just say I want downtown to move because its not as good a spot as somewhere else. Just rectify the problem.

 

The problem is that you people on this site don't understand the concept of nuance. All my original point suggested was that revitalization of the bayou would radically shift the designated desirable area from west-focused to east-focused, which would cause implications on the desirability of the current downtown location. Somehow, that got spun into that I'm suggesting actual physical movement of downtown.

 

I really don't care anything about the west side, quite frankly, there's just nothing to it naturally. That goes whether we are talking about stepford-suburbs like Katy, or the urban-planning mess that is the Galleria. 

 

And I already acknowledge the current unfortunate status of the East side. But nevertheless, that area holds, by far, the best potential when it comes to integrating Houston with its natural features. No longer is the bayou a dingy brown creek that overspills the banks with every flood, it's an actual riparian feature that frames the land and provides significant recreation. Combine that with San Jacinto Monument and Battleship Texas, and Houston reconnects all the pieces that grant it sense of place: it finally becomes a true Bayou City. So yes, the East is indeed slave to toxic industry now, but as soon as clean energy sources hit greater uses, I can easily see that land being reclaimed in a vein similar to the revitalization of certain Rust Belt cities (i.e. Pittsburgh) after steel and automotive industries were outsourced.

Edited April 5, 2019 by AnTonY

[bobruss]

Well said. Sorry I missed your point in the first round, but to be honest I just skimmed over a lot of the nuance because it was jumbled and quite frankly confusing.

 

 

[Texasota]

Yes, some of us were genuinely confused. And when I asked what you meant, your refused to actually engage with me and just proclaimed your meaning to be obvious. I found that incredibly obnoxious, and since this is a discussion forum, I don't think that's an unreasonable reaction.

 

And no, I still don't really understand what "the location of downtown is going to get inferior real quick" is supposed to mean. Are you saying that improvements on the East End will somehow have a negative impact on Downtown itself?

If anything I would expect the opposite to be true, especially as the Allen Parkway and Washington Avenue corridors (and Midtown) continue to develop. Increasingly Downtown will actually the locus of a vibrant central city, rather than just one cluster of office highrises among many.

[kbates2]

The Eastside blooming would only serve to make the location of downtown more meaningful (being the center of so much as opposed to the edge).  

 

[downtownian]

1 hour ago, kbates2 said:

The Eastside blooming would only serve to make the location of downtown more meaningful (being the center of so much as opposed to the edge).  

  

 

Yes, when I leave downtown I go west 75% of the time and east 25% of the time. Making it 50/50 would make downtown even more central.

[august948]

2 hours ago, AnTonY said:

 

The problem is that you people on this site don't understand the concept of nuance. All my original point suggested was that revitalization of the bayou would radically shift the designated desirable area from west-focused to east-focused, which would cause implications on the desirability of the current downtown location. Somehow, that got spun into that I'm suggesting actual physical movement of downtown.

 

I really don't care anything about the west side, quite frankly, there's just nothing to it naturally. That goes whether we are talking about stepford-suburbs like Katy, or the urban-planning mess that is the Galleria. 

 

And I already acknowledge the current unfortunate status of the East side. But nevertheless, that area holds, by far, the best potential when it comes to integrating Houston with its natural features. No longer is the bayou a dingy brown creek that overspills the banks with every flood, it's an actual riparian feature that frames the land and provides significant recreation. Combine that with San Jacinto Monument and Battleship Texas, and Houston reconnects all the pieces that grant it sense of place: it finally becomes a true Bayou City. So yes, the East is indeed slave to toxic industry now, but as soon as clean energy sources hit greater uses, I can easily see that land being reclaimed in a vein similar to the revitalization of certain Rust Belt cities (i.e. Pittsburgh) after steel and automotive industries were outsourced.

 

FINALLY...now we're getting somewhere.  So here's the problem.  Let's say the need for oil and related chemicals goes away.  A doubtful scenario, but let's make pretend that will happen.  Are we also talking about eliminating the port as well (the non-oil and chemical part)?  I would think so, since the goal is to return the bayou to it's natural or some other similar state.  Move all the oil and gas and port activities to Galveston or somewhere up or down the coast.  When that happens, the economy of Houston will pretty much collapse.  Now it'd be nice to say it would be replaced by battery factories or such, but the likelihood of that is pretty low.  Why would they all relocate here to build our economy back up?  The reason Houston exists in it's current state is the industry along the ship channel.  That industry is here because we're at the place where the pipelines and railroads meet the sea.  That's also why the higher end development has historically trended west and north.  Those are the directions AWAY from the industries in question.

 

So, any way you slice it, whether it happens quickly or over a long period of time, in all likelihood Houston would drop dramatically in population and economic terms under this scenario.  When that happens, we won't be able to support many of the things that make Houston a fun place to live.  Large swaths of the city will be desolated and the crime rate will go up (see Detroit, MI).  I think that is way too high a price to pay for a lovely riparian vision.  The east side is already redeveloping to it's natural limits at the edge of the industrial areas.  As someone else stated, that really makes downtown more central, which supports the already obvious renaissance downtown has had in the last couple of decades.

 

It's fun to imagine what could be, but part of that is also imagining the intended and unintended consequences.

[samagon]

On 4/3/2019 at 10:22 AM, AnTonY said:

 

It's just funny how the city ended up focusing itself on the tiniest, dingiest, most sensitive portions of its waterway. But lo and behold, the parts that are actually grand and impressive are wasted on pollutive industry.

 

Reclaiming the bayou will definitely be a true game-changer for the city when it comes to connecting people here with the outdoors.

 

however you look at it, buffalo bayou east of town (it turns into the ship channel at about wayside) hosts two of the biggest drivers of the Houston economy: the port of Houston, and midstream/downstream oil/gas related things (tank farms, and refineries). 

 

reclaiming the bayou from shipping and refining will never happen. not in my lifetime, not in my children's lifetime, not even their children's lifetime.

 

if you look at it historically, the port of Houston used to be located specifically at the confluence of WOB and BB. considering there is a park there now, and one of the biggest industry drivers inside of 610 has vacated (KBR site) and the area is being revitalized, east downtown, and the east side of town is going to get a huge boon. and like I said, most of the industry part of the ship channel doesn't start till after wayside, there's a lot of development that can now happen between there and downtown.

 

specific to the area that is inside 45/59/10... there were some huge things planned and built in the 70s and 80s that really kind of make the east side of downtown less than desirable. luckily, most of all that happened there was buildings were torn down and became surface lots. and luckily, recent developments have been making the east part of downtown downright livable. 

Edited April 5, 2019 by samagon

[quietstorm]

There’s a distinct pedestrian culture developing. Some observations from this afternoon. 

 

1) We walk slower...There’s no East Coast sense of “urgency” or “energy” of the Bay Area; yet the easy pace has a unique bayou city feel that goes along with our climate. 80 percent humidity  just makes you move slower lol. 

 

2) We’re not pretentious...unlike our cousins up I-45 no one is “dressed to the nines”...😏

 

3) It’s Friday but it’s still a workday...while there are noticeably more people from all walks of life downtown; the majority are still downtown workers despite most being in casual Friday dress (see comment above 😊).  

 

4) It’s Friday and downtown is also a place to play...in addition to the many workers venturing from the tunnels to explore the growing street level food options,  there was a significant number of folks enjoying beers at the Flying Saucer, strolling through Discovery Green, walking their dogs, pushing baby strollers, shopping in Forever 21 and just “being” downtown. Main Street (fittingly) is by far the busiest corridor. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by quietstorm

[samagon]

1 hour ago, quietstorm said:

There’s a distinct pedestrian culture developing. Some observations from this afternoon. 

 

1) We walk slower...There’s no East Coast sense of “urgency” or “energy” of the Bay Area; yet the easy pace has a unique bayou city feel that goes along with our climate. 80 percent humidity  just makes you move slower lol. 

 

2) We’re not pretentious...unlike our cousins up I-45 no one is “dressed to the nines”...😏

 

3) It’s Friday but it’s still a workday...while there are noticeably more people from all walks of life downtown; the majority are still downtown workers despite most being in casual Friday dress (see comment above 😊).  

 

4) It’s Friday and downtown is also a place to play...in addition to the many workers venturing from the tunnels to explore the growing street level food options,  there was a significant number of folks enjoying beers at the Flying Saucer, strolling through Discovery Green, walking their dogs, pushing baby strollers, shopping in Forever 21 and just “being” downtown. Main Street (fittingly) is by far the busiest corridor. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

sidewalks downtown are also, apparently, a place to pick your nose  🤮  

[quietstorm]

16 minutes ago, samagon said:

 

sidewalks downtown are also, apparently, a place to pick your nose  🤮  

Actually, it was great seeing the  tremendous diversity of people comfortable just walking around downtown Houston. 

Edited April 5, 2019 by quietstorm

[BeerNut]

2 hours ago, quietstorm said:

 

1) We walk slower...There’s no East Coast sense of “urgency” or “energy” of the Bay Area; yet the easy pace has a unique bayou city feel that goes along with our climate. 80 percent humidity  just makes you move slower lol. 

 

 

maybe we're just less healthy and not used to walking.     I tell people I'm going to walk to Montrose from MidMain area and they think that's crazy far to walk.

[quietstorm]

1 minute ago, BeerNut said:

 

maybe we're just less healthy and not used to walking.     I tell people I'm going to walk to Montrose from MidMain area and they think that's crazy far to walk.

Possibly a combination of both. My husband is an avid runner. He works in the BoA building and when we meet for lunch and walk to Niko Niko’s, Franks or Finn Hall, we just walk slower. My son is in the Bay Area and when we visit SF, we all walk faster, same for New York. But when we’re in DT Houston, we typically walk a lot slower (including my son). It’s more cultural (South being “slower” more “laid back”), if you ask me.