Dallas's Victory Project Vs. HPavilions/East Downtown Development

[tierwestah]

So any thing new going up in Victory lately?

[TexasStar]

So any thing new going up in Victory lately?

Putting the "Park" in Victory Park

The Cirque

The House

House of Blues

[Gary]

I agree, the enthusiasm over at dallasmetropolis seems more tempered than it does here. I think there's just something about showing off and shoving stuff in other peoples' faces that's kind of a common human condition. This being a Houston forum, folks from Dallas love to come on here with unabridled excitement and basically brag about what Dallas has and Houston doesn't. The reverse probably would be true if dallasmetropolis had a decent Houston subforum.

Also, while Dallas people definitely make posts here that are too excited and/or too positive, Houston folks do just the opposite with negativity and unabashed criticism.

But in the end, all of that positive and negative crap put together makes a really entertaining and interesting subforum which is probably why there's so much more activity here than any other Outside Houston subforum.

Fair enough.

[TxDave]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Houston DT is 1.8 sq miles and Dallas DT is 1.2 sq' miles so were not talking about at least twice the size. Also 90% of DT Houston structures are with-in a sq' mile. Majority of the blocks on the east side are parking lots.

I don't know where your official deisgnations of "downtown" come from, but considering that what you define as Downtown Dallas lags Houston considerably, couldn't new, immediately adjacent development such as Victroy Park be included as downtown Dallas?

If you allocate Dallas the same 1.8 sq miles as Houston, it will easily pick up much of Victory and and adjacent Uptown areas.

Downtown Dallas is definitely expanding - arguably to the benefit or detriment of the "old" downtown.

[Analog]

I don't know where your official deisgnations of "downtown" come from, but considering that what you define as Downtown Dallas lags Houston considerably, couldn't new, immediately adjacent development such as Victory Park be included as downtown Dallas?

If you allocate Dallas the same 1.8 sq miles as Houston, it will easily pick up much of Victory and and adjacent Uptown areas.

Downtown Dallas is definitely expanding - arguably to the benefit or detriment of the "old" downtown.

Only the very edge of Uptown would be included... maybe just the Crescent, W or ZaZa.

Friends of mine from Manhatten, Boston and "downtown" Dallas say they consider Victory to be downtown. In fact, they looked at me like I was nuts for even asking. Stand at The House or W and look up, it's downtown.

Edited May 21, 2007 by Analog

[Gary]

Only the very edge of Uptown would be included... maybe just the Crescent, W or ZaZa.

Friends of mine from Manhatten, Boston and "downtown" Dallas say they consider Victory to be downtown. In fact, they looked at me like I was nuts for even asking. Stand at The House or W and look up, it's downtown.

In Houston, our midtown residential boom is just about the exact distance to DT as Victory is to DT Dallas. The difference here is that we consider it outside of DT. Having said that, by your above definition of downtown (and your buddies from the East coast definition), us jealous Houstonians can now claim our midtown and all of it's new population to the now ever expanding guidelines of what a "central business district" is.

After all, if an East coaster says it's DT, it must be true.

[Subdude]

I cant believe you dorks are still bitching about it.

Oh, they'll go on forever...

[TxDave]

In Houston, our midtown residential boom is just about the exact distance to DT as Victory is to DT Dallas. The difference here is that we consider it outside of DT. Having said that, by your above definition of downtown (and your buddies from the East coast definition), us jealous Houstonians can now claim our midtown and all of it's new population to the now ever expanding guidelines of what a "central business district" is.

After all, if an East coaster says it's DT, it must be true.

Exactly!

As Midtown Houston develops more density, it will likely become less of an "adjacent" neighborhood and more of "Downtown" proper - especially as the region grows and everything inside 610 becomes considered "downtown Houston".

If you are truly splitting hairs about whether or not a couple of city blocks separate Victory from Downtown Dallas, you are really missing the big picture of urban development in both cities.

[Houston19514]

08:23 AM CDT on Thursday, May 24, 2007

By STEVE BROWN / The Dallas Morning News

stevebrown@dallasnews.com

"After months of speculation, accounting giant Ernst & Young LLP confirmed Thursday that it will move its North Texas headquarters to the Victory project near downtown.

Ernst & Young will lease about 150,000 square feet in the One Victory Park building which is under construction just north of Woodall Rodgers Freeway. The company will move into the 20-story building, which is 85 percent leased, in July 2009.

"We are very pleased to join other well established Dallas companies in making the exciting move to Victory Park," Ernst & Young Managing Partner Clint McDonnough said in announcing the planned move.

Other tenants in the building will include law firm Haynes & Boone LLP and PlainsCapital Bank."

Victory's gain is downtown's loss. E&Y is moving out downtown Dallas' 2100 Ross (formerly San Jacinto Tower). (Haynes & Boone is also moving from downtown Dallas.)

Edited May 24, 2007 by Houston19514

[Gary]

08:23 AM CDT on Thursday, May 24, 2007

By STEVE BROWN / The Dallas Morning News

stevebrown@dallasnews.com

Victory's gain is downtown's loss. E&Y is moving out downtown Dallas' 2100 Ross (formerly San Jacinto Tower). (Haynes & Boone is also moving from downtown Dallas.)

So even the local paper agrees that Victory is not DT.

Look, let's just agree that Victory is a cool project. I simply enjoy being in the canyons of DT Houston, and that's my take.

[Subdude]

Why not just beat it to death?

[RedScare]

Legal Boundary of the Central Business District (CBD) or "Downtown", as promulgated by Dallas City Council...

(22) CENTRAL BUSINESS DISTRICT means the area of the city within Woodall Rodgers Freeway, Central Expressway (elevated bypass), R. L. Thornton Freeway, and Stemmons Freeway.

Victory is variously described as "Victory", or "Uptown/Victory".

Legal Boundary of the Central Business District (CBD) or "Downtown", as promulgated by Houston City Council...

Central business district shall mean the area beginning at the intersection of the centerline of U.S. 59 and the centerline of I.H. 45; thence in a northwesterly and northerly direction along the centerline of I.H. 45 to its intersection with the centerline of I.H. 10; thence in an easterly direction along the centerline of I.H. 10 to its intersection with the centerline of U.S. 59; thence in a southwesterly direction along the centerline of U.S. 59 to its intersection with I.H. 45, the point of beginning.

Midtown is described as "Midtown".

Thus, if one were speaking of legal definitions, Victory is NOT part of Downtown, and Midtown is NOT part of Downtown. However, personal opinions belong to the person uttering the opinion. Therefore, if Dallas residents prefer to state that Victory is part of Downtown as an opinion, it is their right, just as I may state that, in my opinion, Friendswood is part of the Clear Lake Area, even though legally, Friendswood is an incorporated town. As it is my opinion, no one may claim that I am wrong. However, since I prefer the legally defined terms to stating a wildly inflated opinion, I will continue to state that LEGALLY, Victory is NOT part of the Dallas CBD, but rather, adjacent to it, just as Midtown Houston is adjacent to the Houston CBD.

[RedScare]

I don't think the average person really cares what the boundaries are. The whole midtown, uptown thing is stupid and is only meant for real estate purposes. I sounded like a real putz one day and said that in front of my buddies one day, "I'm going to midtown today to drop off some mail." The location was off elgin and main. They laughed at me and tried correcting me and said "You mean downtown?"

Even though i knew i was right, i think just regular people look at you as anal if you go around describing all boundaries and being precise on everything. To me, midtown is basically downtown Houston. Same applies to Dallas's uptown and Victory park. I still do think Dallas made a big mistake by building Victory out if they were trying to revitalize downtown. To me, Houston will be the more urban downtown of the two because everything is connected and flows better. Dallas just built Victory just for the sake of building it.

Building something just to be cool and hip shows a little bit of insecurity and being something you're not. Not trying to knock it, but Dallas has tried so hard and is still continuing to shake off the perception that outsiders think of it.... The Cowboy town it once was.

Dallasites, don't get offended because its the truth

I won't comment on why your friends look at you funny, as that is your business. However, your comment on Dallas' "mistake" in building Victory is incorrect. If you know the history of the Victory development, you would know that previously, this was a non-tax producing brownfield. The City and developers cleaned up the brownfield, allowing billions of dollars of tax producing buildings to be constructed. Victory is as far from a "mistake" as one could get.

This was not done because of Dallas "insecurity". It was done to return useless land to tax producing status. Comments by Dallas residents are one thing. Actions by the City of Dallas to improve the tax base are quite another. You should learn to distinguish between the two.

Edited May 25, 2007 by RedScare

[N Judah]

Well, the MT v. DT boundary thing is significant because the requirement for building setbacks of 25 feet only applies outside of downtown. That is why suburban style development keeps popping up in midtown.

[Dallasboi]

I won't comment on why your friends look at you funny, as that is your business. However, your comment on Dallas' "mistake" in building Victory is incorrect. If you know the history of the Victory development, you would know that previously, this was a non-tax producing brownfield. The City and developers cleaned up the brownfield, allowing billions of dollars of tax producing buildings to be constructed. Victory is as far from a "mistake" as one could get.

This was not done because of Dallas "insecurity". It was done to return useless land to tax producing status. Comments by Dallas residents are one thing. Actions by the City of Dallas to improve the tax base are quite another. You should learn to distinguish between the two.

I didn't think I would ever be saying this....but ....."Red this was a brilliant post".

[editor]

Several posts have been removed from this thread. If you don't have anything civil to say, don't post. If it continues, this thread will be closed and the violators' posting abilities will be restricted.

[TxDave]

Can someone please remind me when Houston Pavillions is scheduled to open? I can't wait to come visit!

[HtownWxBoy]

Can someone please remind me when Houston Pavillions is scheduled to open? I can't wait to come visit!

It's scheduled to open in October of '08... of course that could change a bit.

[dfwcre8tive]

Some new photos of Victory here:

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=6928

[dfwcre8tive]

Cirque from today:

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showpost...p;postcount=552

[Trae]

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/attachme...entid=13335.jpg

Nice looking tower. What does the rendering look like?

[musicman]

Well, the MT v. DT boundary thing is significant because the requirement for building setbacks of 25 feet only applies outside of downtown. That is why suburban style development keeps popping up in midtown.

how would you explain celcius, sacco's, rich's, etc....there are numerous buildings that are out to the sidewalks.

[Houston19514]

how would you explain celcius, sacco's, rich's, etc....there are numerous buildings that are out to the sidewalks.

They apparently sought and received variances, or perhaps, in some cases, the buildings might have been there before the setback ordinance was enacted.

[musicman]

They apparently sought and received variances, or perhaps, in some cases, the buildings might have been there before the setback ordinance was enacted.

yes so it isn't uncommon in midtown

[C2H]

Are those residences in Victory filling up quickly?

Edited July 20, 2007 by C2H

[TxDave]

Are those residences in Victory filling up quickly?

Honestly, I have no idea how quickly the Victory residences are filling up, but

this question alone should separate Victory from Pavillions...

Pavillions retail will inject a huge amount of life directly into downtown

Houston - it will be a retail and entertainment hub in the center of the city.

Victory, on the other hand, is simply creating a "trendy" lifestyle neighborhood

adjacent to Downtown Dallas. It may have less retail, but more residences.

Each development is currently vital to each city, but they do serve different

purposes (and should not be directly compared).

Edited July 22, 2007 by TxDave

[HtownWxBoy]

Honestly, I have no idea how quickly the Victory residences are filling up, but

this question alone should separate Victory from Pavillions...

Pavillions retail will inject a huge amount of life directly into downtown

Houston - it will be a retail and entertainment hub in the center of the city.

Victory, on the other hand, is simply creating a "trendy" lifestyle neighborhood

adjacent to Downtown Dallas. It may have less retail, but more residences.

Each development is currently vital to each city, but they do serve different

purposes (and should not be directly compared).

[C2H]

Honestly, I have no idea how quickly the Victory residences are filling up, but

this question alone should separate Victory from Pavillions...

Pavillions retail will inject a huge amount of life directly into downtown

Houston - it will be a retail and entertainment hub in the center of the city.

Victory, on the other hand, is simply creating a "trendy" lifestyle neighborhood

adjacent to Downtown Dallas. It may have less retail, but more residences.

Each development is currently vital to each city, but they do serve different

purposes (and should not be directly compared).

I didn't realize by my asking that question you would think I was comparing the developments. I was just curious about the current residential status.

On a side note, I guess when you think about Houston Pavilions and most of the surrounding developments like: Toyota Center, MMpark, Hilton Hotel, Main Street Square, Park Tower, and Downtown Park, we can say Houston has had a "mini" Victory thing going on its own for several years inside its downtown. Most of the residences are popping up ino areas outside its downtown. I guess thats what the topic starter's point in question was.

[C2H]

Just got back from Dallas this weekend. I was kind of disappointed to see the Victory Screens are completely turned off at 10pm. It makes it seem like the whole idea was pointless. I thought it was supposed to be like Times Square?

[Trae]

I was recently in the Dallas area, too (from Monday until Wednesday). The skyline looks good coming in from US 67/I-35 (hilly too). I didn't get down and look at Victory (only passed by it on Woodall Rogers), and it looked big. The amount of cranes in the area reminded me of the TMC. I didn't get to explore the city much since we went to some resort in Tyler for most of our time.