Dallas's Victory Project Vs. HPavilions/East Downtown Development

[Trae]

The last time I was in Dallas was in January. The sky of cranes (as seen from the Woodall Rogers Freeway) was impressive. I remember a Mavericks game on ABC a few weeks ago when that place was rocking. That is about the only time it will "rock". If there is nothing scheduled at the AAC, then nothing is going on there. Even now I only see two people at Victory. A few residential towers will do great, and I know a few office workers will go inside some of the restaurants there at lunch time. The bad thing about Victory Plaza is that there is no "flow". It dead ends at the AAC entrance. I think that was a bad idea.

[musicman]

at 2:50 i see a lady!

[Dallascaper]

You Dallas guys are contradicting each other. First Rantanamo laughs and tells us that the "Pin hole" camera doesn't get to the part of the plaza with all of the people which is a crock. Now you say that people will come once a residential tower is completed. While the people may eventually come, they are not there as Rantanamo claims. If they are, then there all congregating in a 50 square foot area.

If you want to see a place that is actually downtown, and has a night life, come to DT Houston's Main street. That of course brings us to the original point of this thread, which is... Houston already has a built in crowd for the Pavillions. And since you guy's are making Victory predictions, I'll make the prediction (which others have already made) that when the Pavillions are finished, Dt Houston will blow Victory out of the water.

Gary, you are a trip. People from Dallas are contradicting each other for the same reason Houstonians contradict each other; people routinely have their own interpretation of the same reality - it's normal.

I love your prediction: "DT Houston will blow Victory out of the water." Wow, since it was clear that HP was far too modest of a project to compare to Victory, we are now comparing ALL of dt Houston to Victory? While you're busy making absurd comparisons, why not throw in Uptown and Galveston to Houston's side as well?

As has been pointed out ad nauseam, a project the size of Victory will take time to reach critical mass. I'm not saying that I don't have problems with some elements of the development, but Victory has the bones for a solid contributor to Dallas' urban core.

In terms of generating excitement in dt Dallas, I am more excited by the residential projects that are taking place in downtown proper, especially the Mercantile redevelopment.

[NDtexan]

The bad thing about Victory Plaza is that there is no "flow" It dead ends at the AAC entrance. I think that was a bad idea.

Actually i believe that Phase 4 or 5 calls for development north of the AAC. I have no clue how far into the future that phase could get started.

[Mister X]

Gary, you are a trip. People from Dallas are contradicting each other for the same reason Houstonians contradict each other; people routinely have their own interpretation of the same reality - it's normal.

I love your prediction: "DT Houston will blow Victory out of the water." Wow, since it was clear that HP was far too modest of a project to compare to Victory, we are now comparing ALL of dt Houston to Victory? While you're busy making absurd comparisons, why not throw in Uptown and Galveston to Houston's side as well?

As has been pointed out ad nauseam, a project the size of Victory will take time to reach critical mass. I'm not saying that I don't have problems with some elements of the development, but Victory has the bones for a solid contributor to Dallas' urban core.

In terms of generating excitement in dt Dallas, I am more excited by the residential projects that are taking place in downtown proper, especially the Mercantile redevelopment.

It's true about people having their own interpretations of reality. Dallasers look at that web cam photo of the jumbotron area and see thousands of people milling around "doing things" and Houstoners look at the same area and see no activity at all. Maybe that camera has been tampered with so that all the activity going on can't be seen on Houston area computer moniters.

It's seems if Dallas guys want to talk about how Victory is the new Time Square, they should wait until there is a little ammo in their gun, right now their shooting blanks. Thank WFAA for providing the world with that unbiased web cam so people can see whats going on with their own eyes.

Makes perfect sense to me to compare 75 acres of DT Houston (where all the new developments are happening) to 75 acres a half mile northeast of DT Dallas where all the activity is happening.

The Dallas boys loved it when this thread was comparing 75 acres of Dallas development (Victory) to 3 blocks of Houston development (HP). That was sort of like comparing sailing on Galveston Bay to sailing on White Rock Lake (one is several times larger than the other). But when you realize that just across the street from HP there are more things worth seeing, they don't like it and start to cry fowl. Who cares whether it's being developed by one single company or several.

So to be fair - make sure you tell everyone that goes to HP in the future to not look across the street or acknowledge the existence of Discovery Park, Toyota Center, Minute Maid Park, GRB, the Hilton, the light rail line, the Park Tower, and Discovery Tower because they don't count. So what if all those things (and more) could fit into an area the size of Victory, the only thing that matters is that they were not built by the same developer so they are off limits. Notice I never even dragged the west side DT Houston stuff into the mix - that would really be unfair. We REALLY don't want to start comparing theatre districts, bayou walks and DT night time club scenes even if they are only another 10 minutes of walking distance away.

[nmainguy]

Gary, you are a trip. People from Dallas are contradicting each other for the same reason Houstonians contradict each other; people routinely have their own interpretation of the same reality - it's normal.

Years ago I had a good friend that made a great comment regarding Greenway: "Bulk is common and cheap but substance is rare and rewarding. A gem like HP will probably out-live a glorified upscale "life-style" center like VP.

[rantanamo]

Don't understand what's going on here. I'm pretty sure we've been saying that the development is nowhere near being finished, and is sparing of people most of the time. Hard to draw people to walk around. Its pretty easy to log onto Dallasmetropolis and read this. I pretty much stated it here. At the same time, anytime there is an event, the place is busy for a while. Anytime there's a 10pm newscast, it tends to draw a crowd. Don't get what the big deal is around here. How about we let these places get built.

Don't understand the need to compare a development in the middle of downtown, vs a purpose built one that will be isolated for the next couple of years vs one in the heart of downtown. We try to give you more valid comparisons and you don't want it. You're talking about two different cities with areas that have different things in them. How about we compare compare the streetlife of our Uptown to that of your's? Its a stupid comparison.

Fact: Dallas could fill every lot downtown, have the streetlife of Seattle and have restaurants and arts venues rated the highest in the US, and you guys would argue as to why it sucks or why something in Houston is better. We already see it with light rail. Sorry, don't care what your ridership per mile is, you system is behind. Despite how the census rates the metros, commuter patterns, consolidated TV market for decades, somehow Dallas and Fort Worth are still different metros. I really don't get why you guys create a Dallas forum. Its actually quite comical to read vs the continued support for your developments and light jabs we like to give you guys. I don't know what's so surprising. The first guy I encountered @ UT asked me where I was from. When I said Dallas, he went on a diatribe about why Houston is better. That's what this forum sounds like.

[Dallascaper]

Don't understand what's going on here. I'm pretty sure we've been saying that the development is nowhere near being finished, and is sparing of people most of the time. Hard to draw people to walk around. Its pretty easy to log onto Dallasmetropolis and read this. I pretty much stated it here. At the same time, anytime there is an event, the place is busy for a while. Anytime there's a 10pm newscast, it tends to draw a crowd. Don't get what the big deal is around here. How about we let these places get built.

Don't understand the need to compare a development in the middle of downtown, vs a purpose built one that will be isolated for the next couple of years vs one in the heart of downtown. We try to give you more valid comparisons and you don't want it. You're talking about two different cities with areas that have different things in them. How about we compare compare the streetlife of our Uptown to that of your's? Its a stupid comparison.

Fact: Dallas could fill every lot downtown, have the streetlife of Seattle and have restaurants and arts venues rated the highest in the US, and you guys would argue as to why it sucks or why something in Houston is better. We already see it with light rail. Sorry, don't care what your ridership per mile is, you system is behind. Despite how the census rates the metros, commuter patterns, consolidated TV market for decades, somehow Dallas and Fort Worth are still different metros. I really don't get why you guys create a Dallas forum. Its actually quite comical to read vs the continued support for your developments and light jabs we like to give you guys. I don't know what's so surprising. The first guy I encountered @ UT asked me where I was from. When I said Dallas, he went on a diatribe about why Houston is better. That's what this forum sounds like.

That is too bad; most everyone I have met from Houston (whether in Houston or Vegas) has been very polite, and usually complementary about Dallas (except the Cowboys and Mavs.)

As for the board, it is working exactly as the moderators intend: Keep people coming back with just the right mix of Houston homers and Dallas bravado. If we weren't splitting hairs about Big D, there would be no reason to visit this forum.

Based on reading other threads in the Houston forum, the only place Houstonians appear pleased with their downtown is in the Dallas sub forum. I've noticed that many of the people on this board share my sentiment: Main street Houston is okay (nothing great) but downtown as a whole leaves much to be desired. Oh, and Toyota Center...wonderful...I love the mass of parking lots and homeless development it has spurred. I'm sure dt Houston will be very nice some day, but as a whole, it suffers from the same problems that plague Dallas. I'm happy that both D & H are doing something about their downtowns, but to say that one blows the other away in terms of "vibe" or street life is ridiculous. I plan on visiting H for a photo tour next weekend or early June; I will try to photograph all the great "vibe" and energy we hear so much of...maybe my impression of H will change.

And unlike some of my Houston colleagues, my impression and general positive attitude of Victory is abased on actually being there, several times, not so much on a single webcam with a narrow view of the development.

[Trae]

Don't understand what's going on here. I'm pretty sure we've been saying that the development is nowhere near being finished, and is sparing of people most of the time. Hard to draw people to walk around. Its pretty easy to log onto Dallasmetropolis and read this. I pretty much stated it here. At the same time, anytime there is an event, the place is busy for a while. Anytime there's a 10pm newscast, it tends to draw a crowd. Don't get what the big deal is around here. How about we let these places get built.

Don't understand the need to compare a development in the middle of downtown, vs a purpose built one that will be isolated for the next couple of years vs one in the heart of downtown. We try to give you more valid comparisons and you don't want it. You're talking about two different cities with areas that have different things in them. How about we compare compare the streetlife of our Uptown to that of your's? Its a stupid comparison.

Fact: Dallas could fill every lot downtown, have the streetlife of Seattle and have restaurants and arts venues rated the highest in the US, and you guys would argue as to why it sucks or why something in Houston is better. We already see it with light rail. Sorry, don't care what your ridership per mile is, you system is behind. Despite how the census rates the metros, commuter patterns, consolidated TV market for decades, somehow Dallas and Fort Worth are still different metros. I really don't get why you guys create a Dallas forum. Its actually quite comical to read vs the continued support for your developments and light jabs we like to give you guys. I don't know what's so surprising. The first guy I encountered @ UT asked me where I was from. When I said Dallas, he went on a diatribe about why Houston is better. That's what this forum sounds like.

I have seen those 10 PM Newscasts, and no one is outside. I'll even check the webcam and watch it online to see.

[Gary]

Gary, you are a trip. People from Dallas are contradicting each other for the same reason Houstonians contradict each other; people routinely have their own interpretation of the same reality - it's normal.

This is not a matter of interpretation my friend, the FACTS are there for all to read. In fact I suggest you re-read the last 10 posts.

I love your prediction: "DT Houston will blow Victory out of the water." Wow, since it was clear that HP was far too modest of a project to compare to Victory, we are now comparing ALL of dt Houston to Victory? While you're busy making absurd comparisons, why not throw in Uptown and Galveston to Houston's side as well?

Once again I suggest you re-read the post you are referencing here. I never lumped all of DT Houston in my comment, I mentioned Main street which is in effect connected to HP. I also said that this area of DT already had a built in crowd which will make the entire area successful.

Quite frankly I don't find that "absurd" at all. In fact I find your comment ("making absurd comparisons") a bad way to start your argument, as you obviously didn't absorb my post before completely changing the intended context.

[Spades]

I have seen those 10 PM Newscasts, and no one is outside. I'll even check the webcam and watch it online to see.

This webcam thing is killing me. I wonder how many people you will see walking around an area that is still heavily under construction which Victory is. They are building nice residential units as well as entertainment areas in Old Town Alexandria. A place that is just as urban if not more urban than anything in Texas and there are some areas finished. Yet, I see NOONE walking around. The reason....it's still heavily under construction. I wonder how many people in Chicago walked around Millennium park in Grant Park while it was still under construction. I bet you it was in the zero's. If you want to judge how a place is on the webcam, that's fine. But if you're expecting to see a multitude of people on a webcam in an area still under contstruction, don't be surprised if you don't see any. Oh and this is coming from someone not from Dallas.

[Gary]

I'm curious as to which one of you have actually been reading complete posts from your Dallas pals. No one is arguing that Victory is not an impressive project, were arguing the FACT that some Dallas posters continue to push the current popularity of the plaza, when in reality it's a game day gathering as of now.

The continued "pin hole camera" comment makes no sense whatsoever, especially since this (the plaza) is where the argument started in the first place.

Maybe you guys wouldn't be so ridiculed by Houstonians if you didn't continue to argue that this place is laden with people aside from game days, when it is clearly not.

Remember before your rebuttle, this argument started about the plaza.

[Mister X]

But there is no construction going on in the jumbotron plaza in the web cam image. It looks dry, grey, and dead everytime I see it. I'm sure on the left side of the plaza (the part just out of view) it is buzzing just like Time Square. Everyone must be camera shy so they don't walk to the right side of the plaza so that we can see them.

Victory is too isolated from DT Dallas and too hard to get to. It looks like one of those places that people just see from the freeway but never stop at because it isn't worth the bother. There's nothing to do when there is no game at AAC. When the residential buildings are complete, those residents will probably just drive to Northpark like the rest of the plex when they get bored or just watch t.v.

[Trae]

This webcam thing is killing me. I wonder how many people you will see walking around an area that is still heavily under construction which Victory is. They are building nice residential units as well as entertainment areas in Old Town Alexandria. A place that is just as urban if not more urban than anything in Texas and there are some areas finished. Yet, I see NOONE walking around. The reason....it's still heavily under construction. I wonder how many people in Chicago walked around Millennium park in Grant Park while it was still under construction. I bet you it was in the zero's. If you want to judge how a place is on the webcam, that's fine. But if you're expecting to see a multitude of people on a webcam in an area still under contstruction, don't be surprised if you don't see any. Oh and this is coming from someone not from Dallas.

According to many in Dallas, VP is actually buzzing, so maybe MP in Chicago was buzzing during construction.

[Dallascaper]

Victory Plaza is what it is: it will be busy on game nights (Mavs & Stars, how ever many nights a year that is) and during concerts or other events at AAC. Even when Victory is built out, I don't expect the plaza to be teeming with people 24 hours a day - that's not what it's for. The plaza is meant as a gathering place, an open air area for special events or whatever. The plaza is surrounded by a couple of small office buildings, some retail, and an assortment of restaurants; not the type of businesses that will by themselves ever generate a ton of foot traffic. If Hillwood wants the plaza to be a destination, they are gong to have to host regular scheduled events in the plaza, something that I believe they plan to do.

And Gary, if I misquoted you, I apologize; but in all fairness, you are the last person on this board equipped to criticize anyone for twisting statements.

[Gary]

And Gary, if I misquoted you, I apologize; but in all fairness, you are the last person on this board equipped to criticize anyone for twisting statements.

Wow that's one hell of an apology.

Speaking of which. If I'm so bad at twisting statements, give me two examples on any thread of your choice where I have twisted anything. I may be wrong about a given argument, but I don't EVER knowingly twist statements.

quote]

Now back to the current subject. I love this one by your fellow Dallasite Rantanamo. LOL, I was watching the live news report from there at 10. It wasn't empty. In fact there were people all over the plaza with a decent crowd watching the news.

Guess I'm twisting statements again.

[musicman]

It looks dry, grey, and dead everytime I see it.

looks?

[Captain Impossible]

...those residents will probably just drive to Northpark like the rest of the plex when they get bored or just watch t.v.

that's an attitude that has frustrated urban redevelopment supporters for years. think about the logical conclusion of what you're saying. it's not just a jab at dallas. it's very revealing to how you must feel about urban developments like victory and the pavilions project. if i go by your statement, you clearly don't believe in urban redevelopment.

[Mister X]

lighten up captain, i was half kidding - as usual. in reality, i'm sure that the people who will live in or near victory will probably use it sometimes - unless walker:texas ranger is on.

[C2H]

Victory definitely looks better but looks aren't everything. Not to sound like i'm jabbing ,but i just think that the stuff in downtown Houston is already in place and HP will be like filling one of the last few holes. New development will more than likely spur around the HP development and the remaining parking lots on the east side of downtown will be filled.

Downtown Houston has been building and extending downtown out for years. Aside from residential development, Victory is one large project that's basically catching downtown Dallas up with Houston's downtown.

They both are going to be impressive projects but i just predict that with most of everything in place in downtown Houston, HP, Main Street and all of Houston east developments will flow better. Victory will look better.

This is coming from someone not from Houston or Dallas.

[Gary]

Victory definitely looks better but looks aren't everything. Not to sound like i'm jabbing ,but i just think that the stuff in downtown Houston is already in place and HP will be like filling one of the last few holes. New development will more than likely spur around the HP development and the remaining parking lots on the wast side of town.

Downtown Houston has been building and extending downtown out for years. Aside from residential development, Victory is one large project that's basically catching downtown Dallas up with Houston's downtown.

They both are going to be impressive projects but i just predict that with most of everything in place in downtown Houston, HP, Main Street and all of Houston east developments will flow better. Victory will look better.

This is coming from someone not from Houston or Dallas.

You put it alot better than I did.

[HtownWxBoy]

They both are going to be impressive projects but i just predict that with most of everything in place in downtown Houston, HP, Main Street and all of Houston east developments will flow better. Victory will look better.

I agree... Victory is much bigger and much better looking than HP, but HP being right in the middle of Downtown Houston will combine w/ not only the other Downtown Houston projects underway (main street, one park place, discovery green... just to name the major projects) but also w/ everything else that is already downtown (the Theater District, Toyota Center and Minute Maid Park... maybe even a new soccer stadium, restaurants, club/bars, Macy's, the convention center, hotels, lofts, soaring office towers, etc) to make Downtown Houston a much busier and much more "urban" Downtown.

[Captain Impossible]

I agree... Victory is much bigger and much better looking than HP, but HP being right in the middle of Downtown Houston will combine w/ not only the other Downtown Houston projects underway (main street, one park place, discovery green... just to name the major projects) but also w/ everything else that is already downtown (the Theater District, Toyota Center and Minute Maid Park... maybe even a new soccer stadium, restaurants, club/bars, Macy's, the convention center, hotels, lofts, soaring office towers, etc) to make Downtown Houston a much busier and much more "urban" Downtown.

just remember that houston's cbd is at least twice the physical size of dallas'. include victory and part of uptown and now we're talking about a space the size of houston's.

[HtownWxBoy]

just remember that houston's cbd is at least twice the physical size of dallas'. include victory and part of uptown and now we're talking about a space the size of houston's.

Yea but most of the projects being built in Downtown Houston are close to one another... it's not like things are being built on opposite ends of Downtown. Some things are further away than others, but alot of stuff is within a few blocks of each other. Plus... Downtown Dallas has a freeway seperating it from Victory and Uptown. Yes, you can walk right under the freeway, but things like that have a history of seperating communities... e.g. Boston pre-The Big Dig.

[Ethanra]

just remember that houston's cbd is at least twice the physical size of dallas'. include victory and part of uptown and now we're talking about a space the size of houston's.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Houston DT is 1.8 sq miles and Dallas DT is 1.2 sq' miles so were not talking about at least twice the size. Also 90% of DT Houston structures are with-in a sq' mile. Majority of the blocks on the east side are parking lots.

[C2H]

^^^and furthermore Victory and Uptown Dallas will have different vibes/beats. They're both Master-planned communities which will give the overall feel of something a little more suburban. Not at all saying that's a bad thing but i think Houston's downtown will definitely be more "urban" mainly because of everything closer in to proximity. Victory Plaza AA is at least a 15-20 minute walk from the West End. I know this to be a fact. I was in Dallas at the end of march and we were riding DARTrail from Mockingbird Station to downtown Dallas. We accidently ended up on the wrong train taking us to Victory and it let us off in front of the AA center so we decided to walk Houston Street to the West End. The walk was quite pleasant and exciting though because we got a glimpse of everything going up.

[The Great Hizzy!]

Yes, but I understand what CI is basically saying... in theory, if Victory Park can evolve into a sustainable, all-inclusive development, it can eventually bridge the gap between DT and Uptown and essentially turn that area into what DT Houston is becoming. Whether that happens or not remains, but I understand the theory.

With that, it's similar to what we hope the western half of Midtown (include the Edge and the Post property) will become in relationship to DT as well as the burgeoning warehouse district east of DT proper. If in 10 years we can see another 3-5K residential units built in the Warehouse District combined with the expansion of residential/retail in Midtown/Fourth Ward, we'll see a large, sweeping urban district that's more than just a place to go to work.

It appears with HP, Discovery Green, the Park, Discovery Tower and the Main Street Corridor, Houston is working inside/out where as with Victory Park, Dallas seems to be working outside/in. Just two different approaches, with neither being 100% guaranteed to succeed but still having better odds than not.

And I personally think HP looks better architecturally, but that's just me.

[Trae]

I agree with C2H. DT Houston is going to become much more urban and less uniform (like Victory).

[Dallasboi]

I agree with C2H. DT Houston is going to become much more urban and less uniform (like Victory).

Good observations guys..................but only time will tell with these two developments.I am also ready to see how HP turns out.......I know it's gonna be bad ass.

Good observations guys..................but only time will tell with these two developments.I am also ready to see how HP turns out.......I know it's gonna be bad ass.

And maybe it's just me .......but I also noticed how houstonians on this board are very thrilled that they finnally have something to brag about and be proud of.............maybe it will tone down some of the bickering back an forth that went on when everybody was unsure about HP ever breaking ground.

[Dallascaper]

It appears with HP, Discovery Green, the Park, Discovery Tower and the Main Street Corridor, Houston is working inside/out where as with Victory Park, Dallas seems to be working outside/in. Just two different approaches, with neither being 100% guaranteed to succeed but still having better odds than not.

And I personally think HP looks better architecturally, but that's just me.

I guess the original topic of this thread being Victory vs HP, or V vs. HP + Main, or V vs half of Houston or whatever, is dead. People on this board act as though dt Houston is busting with development, and Dallas has only Victory; not so. To use your terminology, Dallas is developing its core from the outside/in, inside/out and top to bottom. Is the Mercantile project outside of dt? No, and the M project is by itself bigger than HP. Is the completion of the Arts District outside of dt? Nope, and it is by itself bigger than HP. How about the hundreds (thousands maybe, I haven't counted) of residential units currently under construction in dt right now? Outside of dt? Nope. It's too bad Dallas has all that empty office space, but what was once blight is now an opportunity: The construction of thousands of residential units for less cost and time than building new. I truly believe the empty office buildings (now that they are being redeveloped) are Dallas' greatest asset in redefining downtown.

Houston may very well have a somewhat more developed dt than Dallas, I will personally be able to confirm or deny this in a few weeks. But even without Victory, Big D has over $650m in private projects within the loop right now. Counting new projects that haven't started, public projects, such as Dallas' growing light rail system, and throw in the boom in Uptown, and Big D is finally starting to live up to its name.

I'm happy that Houston has some nice projects gong on in dt; that's good for Texas. And maybe Dallas has to work twice as hard just to catch up to Houston, but in sheer dollars and scope, I'd say that Big D is doing more than catching up.