Dallas's Victory Project Vs. HPavilions/East Downtown Development

[slfunk]

Victory is getting up and going like many have stated. Today is some big grand opening, they had the big kick off on the March 23 for Victory Plaza. Now just from watching the media and being in this area at times after work, Victory plaza usually has something going on before and after the games. Its filling up and many fans stay afterwards for Channel 8's news cast. We only have a couple pieces of the puzzle in place with a couple more pieces are coming along. Cirque is about to top out in the next couple of weeks, and Victory Park will be open hopefully by May. Oh...some other discussions. Jonas Woods of Hillwood was quoted as saying something to the effect that high end stores and restuarants account for something like 1 billion sales a year, all the while mid level accounts for 100 billion per year, so in the next stage they plan having more mid level retail and restuarants. I'll try to find the article

This from an email; sorry no link:

"LFT

[tierwestah]

I'm somewhat disappointed in Victory. I was under the impression that Victory was going to be a great urban meeting space with energy and excitement that would become the heart and pulse of the city.

Instead it looks like a town center/lifestyle center development that caters only to the rich with giant TV's.

Dallasites, are you happy with how Victory has turned out?

You can't go based upon what you see right now. It's still in construction phase.

[nmm]

ROFLMAO

I asked a very simple question which you have still refused to even attempt to answer. If all you know is that some company has acquired a bunch of land around Toyota Center, then your initial post truly amounted to nothing, and only showed how little you truly know, since you apparently were unaware that one company has owned most of the subject land for a very long time. Did your super secret inside informant not even hint at whether these purchases were recent? If they weren't recent, your "inside" information could not be more worthless (or less "inside" as it has been published in the Chronicle; yes, even the clueless folks at the Chronicle know about it).

(and by the way, it was quite clear that I did not expect you to go search the public records. I only mentioned the public records because you should be free to convey any supposedly inside information that is public record.)

One more thing: You seem to be rather full of yourself to think I have "turned my sights on you" in order to try to chase you off. With respect, you aren't worth the effort. ;-)

Why dont you leave him alone? Is it a life and death matter?

Okay, so maybe he didnt know. Why do you keep arguing with him?

Some of you guys act younger than your age.

[Mister X]

Wow. Are people still talking about Victory? Seems so "last year" now. What else you got?

[2112]

It IS funny to read. One thing for sure about Houston19514, he doesn't discriminate. Whether we're talking about Dallas or Houston, you'd better come with the facts or he'll call you on it.

So dallasites, take this as an example that when the forumers ask for facts, that doesn't just apply to when talking about Dallas. Many of the dallasites try to make it seem like Dallas is being singled out, and that's not the case.

I have a lot of respect for Houston19514. He named his dog after our city, and he lives in another state (both of them). Also, he is the only one I know that has purposely taken himself into a pretty scarry ghetto in Houston, because I suggested a really good taqueria there once. He reported back to me that he did indeed enjoy the tacos (They were tacos, right? I cant remember if you had that or the chalupas.). Mr. 514 is indeed a person of conviction, if you ask me. But then again, no one asked me. (They never do.)

[sound of gallups as 2112 rides away on his llama]

[2112]

Victory is getting up and going like many have stated. Today is some big grand opening, they had the big kick off on the March 23 for Victory Plaza. Now just from watching the media and being in this area at times after work, Victory plaza usually has something going on before and after the games. Its filling up and many fans stay afterwards for Channel 8's news cast. We only have a couple pieces of the puzzle in place with a couple more pieces are coming along. Cirque is about to top out in the next couple of weeks, and Victory Park will be open hopefully by May. Oh...some other discussions. Jonas Woods of Hillwood was quoted as saying something to the effect that high end stores and restuarants account for something like 1 billion sales a year, all the while mid level accounts for 100 billion per year, so in the next stage they plan having more mid level retail and restuarants. I'll try to find the article

This from an email; sorry no link:

"LFT

[nmainguy]

.

[Trae]

begin RANT;

A fashion terminal? I dont know, but that just sounds very snooty. It's like the phrase "cultural district". As if "Fashion is found HERE", and "come HERE to be cultured." I hope Houston never brands areas like that. It's bad enough someone went to the trouble of coining "NoDo", which I absolutely dispise. Things need to be organically made. When one here's "The Montrose", it's real because history made that phrase. It wasnt instantly coined.

end RANT;

When I was in Dallas around January, they were toting some fashion show coming to town. WFAA TV said these exact words..."New York, Los Angeles, Milan, Dallas?!?" They then starting talking about how Dallas is just like those cities in the fashion industry. My sister, who is into that fashion stuff, bust out laughing (she is 11).

[VelvetJ]

When I was in Dallas around January, they were toting some fashion show coming to town. WFAA TV said these exact words..."New York, Los Angeles, Milan, Dallas?!?" They then starting talking about how Dallas is just like those cities in the fashion industry. My sister, who is into that fashion stuff, bust out laughing (she is 11).

I'm not sure if I would place Dallas along with those cities but I think you seriously underestimate it's place in the Fashion Industry.

[2112]

Yip. I thought so. Dallas is essentially New York. Essentially.

[Mister X]

The "Dallas Look" is extremely popular all over the world right now. Everyone wants their clothes to look like they were designed in Dallas. I hear, all the budding superstars in the fashion industry make it their life's goal to move to Dallas some day, but only the very fortunate few ever actually make it. NYC and Paris have to settle for the losers that can't make it in the Dallas fashion scene.

[Dallasboi]

The "Dallas Look" is extremely popular all over the world right now. Everyone wants their clothes to look like they were designed in Dallas. I hear, all the budding superstars in the fashion industry make it their life's goal to move to Dallas some day, but only the very fortunate few ever actually make it. NYC and Paris have to settle for the losers that can't make it in the Dallas fashion scene.

And your right again!!! >

[Mister X]

Wow. I guess some people will believe ANYTHING they read on the internet.

[Dallasboi]

Wow. I guess some people will believe ANYTHING they read on the internet.

If you are refering to me,it needs to be known that I was being sarcastic.

[HtownWxBoy]

The "Dallas Look" is extremely popular all over the world right now. Everyone wants their clothes to look like they were designed in Dallas. I hear, all the budding superstars in the fashion industry make it their life's goal to move to Dallas some day, but only the very fortunate few ever actually make it. NYC and Paris have to settle for the losers that can't make it in the Dallas fashion scene.

nice!

[dfwcre8tive]

There are some nice recent photos of Victory here: http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showpost...amp;postcount=1

[tierwestah]

Yeah i was just in Dallas this past weekend and i have to say that Victory looks great. It looks even better in person. My fiance and i went up to the Reunion tower and we were astounded on how well you can see the Victory Screens from way up there. It's starting to resemble a NYC. Sorry to say but i was a tad bit envious.

[HtownWxBoy]

Yeah i was just in Dallas this past weekend and i have to say that Victory looks great. It looks even better in person. My fiance and i went up to the Reunion tower and we were astounded on how well you can see the Victory Screens from way up there. It's starting to resemble a NYC. Sorry to say but i was a tad bit envious.

It sounds like an awsome project... I am sure it looks amazing. I still stand by my opinion, however, that Houston Pavilions, though a lot smaller, will, in the end, do a lot more for Downtown Houston than Victory will do for Downtown Dallas.

[tierwestah]

It sounds like an awsome project... I am sure it looks amazing. I still stand by my opinion, however, that Houston Pavilions, though a lot smaller, will, in the end, do a lot more for Downtown Houston than Victory will do for Downtown Dallas.

I agree with you. I mean HP will definitely have more entertainment and proximity advantages to Discovery Green Park, Main Street, and others. It's just that Visitors like to see that WOW factor when they visit a city. It just seems that flashy stuff such as the stuff in Dallas, NYC, and Las Vegas tend to get more attention from Visitors. Some people on here might disagree but I don't think it would kill Houston if it was just a tad bit more flashy.

[Trae]

That's why I am hoping HP has some flashy HDTV's on its side.

[HtownWxBoy]

I agree with you. I mean HP will definitely have more entertainment and proximity advantages to Discovery Green Park, Main Street, and others. It's just that Visitors like to see that WOW factor when they visit a city. It just seems that flashy stuff such as the stuff in Dallas, NYC, and Las Vegas tend to get more attention from Visitors. Some people on here might disagree but I don't think it would kill Houston if it was just a tad bit more flashy.

I can see where you are coming from, but I am more interested in myself being able to enjoy the city I live in as opposed to caring if visitors are impressed. Don't get me wrong, I think we should try to attract visitors, but I am excited about HP b/c I am exicted to be able to go Downtown and shop and eat and walk around and go to the park... all in an "urban" environment surrounding by tower skyscrapers. I would like to live in a city with an urban, dense downtown core... and I see Downtown Houston becoming that before Downtown Dallas.

[tierwestah]

I can see where you are coming from, but I am more interested in myself being able to enjoy the city I live in as opposed to caring if visitors are impressed. Don't get me wrong, I think we should try to attract visitors, but I am excited about HP b/c I am exicted to be able to go Downtown and shop and eat and walk around and go to the park... all in an "urban" environment surrounding by tower skyscrapers. I would like to live in a city with an urban, dense downtown core... and I see Downtown Houston becoming that before Downtown Dallas.

You're half right. It's not so much about caring what visitors think but wanting Houston to become better known as a World Class and a destination type city. I talk to alot of people at my internship from other places and they say "I didn't know Houston was so big" or "I thought Dallas was the only big city in Texas".

Speaking from a personal standpoint, I just don't want outsiders to just think "Dallas" when they think of Texas, I want Houston to get recognized too. Even though It's already started to get some recognition, i think it would help Houston a little bit more if they show a little more "bling, bling"! You Feel me?

That's why I am hoping HP has some flashy HDTV's on its side.

I wouldn't count on it. Believe me, i'm hopin' too but Denver Pavilions doesn't have it, i wouldn't expect it here. Let's see if this so called "City Centre" will actually become reality and add the TVs in their plan

[HtownWxBoy]

You're half right. It's not so much about caring what visitors think but wanting wanting Houston to become better known as a World Class and a destination type city. I talk to alot of people at my internship from other places and they say "I didn't know Houston was so big" or "I thought Dallas was the only big city in Texas".

Speaking from a personal standpoint, I just don't want outsiders to just think "Dallas" when they think of Texas, I want Houston to get recognized too. Even though It's already started to get more recognized. i think it would help Houston a little bit more if they show a little more "bling, bling"! You Feel me?

I totally understand... everyone who visits me always says that they never knew Houston was such a bit city. But still, above everything, I would like mycity to be "urban"... then we can work on attracting people here.

[tierwestah]

...

[TxDave]

I can see where you are coming from, but I am more interested in myself being able to enjoy the city I live in as opposed to caring if visitors are impressed. Don't get me wrong, I think we should try to attract visitors, but I am excited about HP b/c I am exicted to be able to go Downtown and shop and eat and walk around and go to the park... all in an "urban" environment surrounding by tower skyscrapers. I would like to live in a city with an urban, dense downtown core... and I see Downtown Houston becoming that before Downtown Dallas.

I find your vision/desire interesting: "to go Downtown and shop and eat and walk around and go to the park... all in an "urban" environment surrounding by tower skyscrapers". I would love to be able to do the same things.

In both Houston and Dallas there are currently neighborhoods adjacent to downtown where you can do many, if not all, all of these things - except you are not surrounded by, but rather in the shadows of, the "towering skyscrapers". Moving that urban environment into the core is something both cities seem to be aggressively pursuing.

One thing I noticed that you omitted (perhaps inadvertently) from your vision was the "living" component. More people living downtown will greatly facilitate many of your other desires. That is where, I think, Houston and Dallas may be differing slightly.

In its current state, Downtown Houston is fairly strong -- very large employment base, great attractions (ballpark/arena), and some scattered residential projects (although not yet near its overall potential, in my opinion). New projects such as Houston Pavilions, the new park, and residential tower will definitely help strengthen the area, but the possibilities downtown are so much greater.

On the other hand, Downtown Dallas has been (and remains to be) consistently behind Houston in its CBD revitalization. As a result, I feel that the weaker employment base and more dire situation in Dallas has, instead, forced the city to start by focusing on making downtown more of a "neighborhood" with numerous residents, rather that an existing thriving city center where some people happen to live.

The difference is subtle, but I think significant.

Houston does have several existing loft buildings, condos, and a new residential tower under construction; but I think the numerous large building conversions completed/underway in Downtown Dallas will have a larger impact on the transformation of its downtown area into an "urban" environment.

I have no doubt that Houston will only continue to strengthen its thriving urban core, but I also believe that the emphasis on residential development in Dallas will accelerate the creation of the type of downtown "urban" community/neighborhood that you envision.

[TheNiche]

Houston does have several existing loft buildings, condos, and a new residential tower under construction; but I think the numerous large building conversions completed/underway in Downtown Dallas will have a larger impact on the transformation of its downtown area into an "urban" environment.

I have no doubt that Houston will only continue to strengthen its thriving urban core, but I also believe that the emphasis on residential development in Dallas will accelerate the creation of the type of downtown "urban" community/neighborhood that you envision.

No, I've got to disagree with this. The only thing that conversions create is more people and perhaps a more polished facade...eventually (but not immediately) they can bring about some convenience-oriented retail offerings. But it doesn't add much of anything physical to the built environment.

As a result of downtown Houston's tightening office market, we not only are creating more demand for urban living, but it has nowhere else to be placed than in new construction, which is precisely what we're seeing.

Btw, and I'm not trying to annoy Houston19514, but I'm hearing a lot of insider buzz now about projects throughout downtown. If only the folks on this forum knew, how gleeful they would be!

[TxDave]

No, I've got to disagree with this. The only thing that conversions create is more people and perhaps a more polished facade...eventually (but not immediately) they can bring about some convenience-oriented retail offerings. But it doesn't add much of anything physical to the built environment.

Actually I was not addressing growing the built environment, but rather creating a downtown "urban" environment. I agree that conversions by themselves will not create anything new.

But I do feel that the large number of conversions in Dallas is establishing a population base that creates an urban neighborhood that requires more than just the convenience-oriented retail offerings.

A growing population of (generally) affluent residents should continue to draw more "trendy" retail and dining establishments (along with all of the 'followers' from the rest of the city - ala Uptown).

My real hope is that all of these new residents will also drive the creation of "non-trendy", comfortable, neighborhood establishments downtown as well. I really am concerned about downtown becoming too much of an upscale/'elite' type of neighborhood that reinforces the perception of which Dallas is so notorious

[Mister X]

Btw, and I'm not trying to annoy Houston19514, but I'm hearing a lot of insider buzz now about projects throughout downtown. If only the folks on this forum knew, how gleeful they would be!

I'm gleeful just hearing second hand insider buzz rumors! Tell me, do any of the projects you're hearing about sound realistic to you? Please tell me that Houston City Centre (Texas and Main) is one of them.

[TheNiche]

Actually I was not addressing growing the built environment, but rather creating a downtown "urban" environment. I agree that conversions by themselves will not create anything new.

But I do feel that the large number of conversions in Dallas is establishing a population base that creates an urban neighborhood that requires more than just the convenience-oriented retail offerings.

A growing population of (generally) affluent residents should continue to draw more "trendy" retail and dining establishments (along with all of the 'followers' from the rest of the city - ala Uptown).

My real hope is that all of these new residents will also drive the creation of "non-trendy", comfortable, neighborhood establishments downtown as well. I really am concerned about downtown becoming too much of an upscale/'elite' type of neighborhood that reinforces the perception of which Dallas is so notorious

I've only driven through downtown Dallas once in my adult life, and it was on a Saturday morning while on my way to an establishment in Deep Ulm, so I'm far from familiar with any seedy aspects that downtown Dallas might have. If it is at all similar to Houston, though, there is a bit more grit and grime than the newer areas such as Victory and Uptown (or the perception thereof as influenced by urban canyons without sunlight, bums, and older earth-tone buildings), and I do recall noting that retail options were extremely limited.

If my assumption that both downtowns have the same issues affecting them is accurate (and correct me if it isn't), and about the only difference is economic growth, then the same social trends would apply. And that's the root of a big problem, because older householders that can afford to live in highrises tend to prefer the highly-amenitized and cleaner environment, especially one in which your views are unincumbered by other towers. Younger folks seem to be more willing to embrace the grit, but they tend not to have the means to support their preferences, and it is exceptionally hard to justify downtown living if they don't also work there...and that is where downtown Dallas' office market creates problems on the residential side, too.

I'm gleeful just hearing second hand insider buzz rumors! Tell me, do any of the projects you're hearing about sound realistic to you?

Yes, absolutely.

Please tell me that Houston City Centre (Texas and Main) is one of them.

No comment.

[The Great Hizzy!]

Damn you, Niche!