Dallas's Victory Project Vs. HPavilions/East Downtown Development

[scarface]

Damn you, Niche!

No disrespect to Niche, but i can't stand having people throwing out information without any hints or clues as to what it might entail. It also annoys me for people to just post these claims without sources. I don't get excited or even hopeful. I would rather not hear any information at all if no more information can be given than that.

[nmainguy]

No disrespect to Niche, but i can't stand having people throwing out information without any hints or clues as to what it might entail. It also annoys me for people to just post these claims without sources. I don't get excited or even hopeful. I would rather not hear any information at all if no more information can be given than that.

Agreed. Niche's propensity for this behaviour has been covered extensivly in this thread as well as others. It's more like the little boy who cryed wolf.

[HtownWxBoy]

I find your vision/desire interesting: "to go Downtown and shop and eat and walk around and go to the park... all in an "urban" environment surrounding by tower skyscrapers". I would love to be able to do the same things.

In both Houston and Dallas there are currently neighborhoods adjacent to downtown where you can do many, if not all, all of these things - except you are not surrounded by, but rather in the shadows of, the "towering skyscrapers". Moving that urban environment into the core is something both cities seem to be aggressively pursuing.

One thing I noticed that you omitted (perhaps inadvertently) from your vision was the "living" component. More people living downtown will greatly facilitate many of your other desires. That is where, I think, Houston and Dallas may be differing slightly.

In its current state, Downtown Houston is fairly strong -- very large employment base, great attractions (ballpark/arena), and some scattered residential projects (although not yet near its overall potential, in my opinion). New projects such as Houston Pavilions, the new park, and residential tower will definitely help strengthen the area, but the possibilities downtown are so much greater.

On the other hand, Downtown Dallas has been (and remains to be) consistently behind Houston in its CBD revitalization. As a result, I feel that the weaker employment base and more dire situation in Dallas has, instead, forced the city to start by focusing on making downtown more of a "neighborhood" with numerous residents, rather that an existing thriving city center where some people happen to live.

The difference is subtle, but I think significant.

Houston does have several existing loft buildings, condos, and a new residential tower under construction; but I think the numerous large building conversions completed/underway in Downtown Dallas will have a larger impact on the transformation of its downtown area into an "urban" environment.

I have no doubt that Houston will only continue to strengthen its thriving urban core, but I also believe that the emphasis on residential development in Dallas will accelerate the creation of the type of downtown "urban" community/neighborhood that you envision.

I didn't mean to omit anything. One reason Downtown Houston lacks residents is b/c there is not a lot or retail.... no grocery store... a lot of stuff closes at 5pm... stuff like that that people want around where they live. Well, with HP we have tons of new retail coming with restaurants... an upscale bowling alley... House of Blues, etc. The new residential tower will have a small grocer on street level along with a cafe... add this to the new park being built which will have restaurants... all of this in the center of Downtown Houston where thousands of people work. I believe all of this will lead to more people wanting to live Downtown... which in turn will lead to more retail / restaurants / entertainment, etc... this will lead to more residents... etc etc. I believe it will be sort of like a snowball effect... ALL DOWNTOWN!

[TheNiche]

No disrespect to Niche, but i can't stand having people throwing out information without any hints or clues as to what it might entail. It also annoys me for people to just post these claims without sources. I don't get excited or even hopeful. I would rather not hear any information at all if no more information can be given than that.

I get where you're coming from, but I mean only to convey a sense of optimism. I think that's warranted.

Agreed. Niche's propensity for this behaviour has been covered extensivly in this thread as well as others. It's more like the little boy who cryed wolf.

The little boy who cried wolf? Jeez, if you're trying to insult me, at least use an analogy that makes sense. After all, the whole point of insulting someone is to discredit them, not yourself. I'd expect more from someone as artistically-inclined as yourself.

...and then you'll say, as you have in the past to this same come-back of mine that I'm not worth the time and creativity. ...and then I'll say, "what, I wasn't worth the time for you not to make an ass of yourself?" I'll then use the wacko smiley, like this:

[nmainguy]

I get where you're coming from, .

Btw, and I'm not trying to annoy Houston19514, but I'm hearing a lot of insider buzz now about projects throughout downtown.

No. You are spreading rumors. Now if you truly have real info, spill it. This will make you more credible than trying to spin "I'm hearing a lot of insider buz" into "but I mean only to convey a sense of optimism."

If you had just said that instead of inserting your usual BS about insider knowledge which you never share, you wouldn't get ragged on everytime you pull this stunt. That's a form of crying Wolf.

As far as insulting you, why bother when others have proven to be far more skillful...including your worse enemy: yourself.

[TheNiche]

No. You are spreading rumors. Now if you truly have real info, spill it. This will make you more credible than trying to spin "I'm hearing a lot of insider buz" into "but I mean only to convey a sense of optimism."

If you had just said that instead of inserting your usual BS about insider knowledge which you never share, you wouldn't get ragged on everytime you pull this stunt. That's a form of crying Wolf.

I have information, but I won't be bullied into spilling it. You are correct that it'd make me a more credible source, but them's the breaks. I share what little I can, and if all you get is unqualified optimism, well you're just going to have to live with it. Believe it or not, some people actually like to feel good about the progress their city is making. So crawl back into your pit of cynicism and read up on your children's stories. Next time, get the analogy right.

If I purposefully lie and cry "crane" and it generates a lot of buzz but there is no crane, and do it again and generate a lot of buzz, then the third time, there will be no buzz. That would be analogous to the boy who cried wolf. But I'm not crying "crane" because there is no crane. I'm crying "insider buzz" because there is insider buzz. That you do not know what it is does not negate its truth, oh non-omnipotent one.

As far as insulting you, why bother when others have proven to be far more skillful...including your worse enemy: yourself.

Oh, how original! Polly want a cracker?

[Houston19514]

Btw, and I'm not trying to annoy Houston19514, but I'm hearing a lot of insider buzz now about projects throughout downtown. If only the folks on this forum knew, how gleeful they would be!

Not annoyed in the least... but HIGHLY AMUSED. Anyone who reads the papers, or follows Mayor White's statements, or even follows this forum, already knows there is a lot of "insider buzz" about projects throughout downtown.

[Gary]

I think you guy's are being a little hard on Niche. He's either lying or telling the truth, and I don't think he's a liar.

We've already run off Houston Development with a barage of rudeness, let's not run Niche off to.

[Houston19514]

I think you guy's are being a little hard on Niche. He's either lying or telling the truth, and I don't think he's a liar.

We've already run off Houston Development with a barage of rudeness, let's not run Niche off to.

Truth or lie; it doesn't really matter. . . Niche has told us exactly nothing, and has rarely, if ever, shown any evidence of having any truly inside information. It doesn't exactly take Sherlock Holmes to know that there are a lot of exciting developments brewing for downtown Houston.

[Mister X]

I agree with Gary. Be nice to Niche.

A little optimism never hurt anyone. People won't be disappointed if they take everything they read on the internet with a little skepticism and common sense instead of as the gospel truth or anything other than the opinion that it is. It's not like what people post around here makes a whole lot of difference whether something gets built or not. But if someone thinks it could hurt their credibility at work by revealing inside stuff - I respect that.

How much one chooses to believe around here as actual fact is their own responsibility. With that being said, keep posting what you can, Niche. I like reading that you think the projects you are hearing inside info about (that will make us all gleeful) are real. You don't need sources to post opinion. Of course, it would be nice.

How about a time table??? - WHEN will we be gleeful?

I'm hoping the "trick the info out of him" method will work better than the "pissing him off" approach - which is getting us nowhere.

[Houston19514]

I agree with Gary. Be nice to Niche.

A little optimism never hurt anyone. People won't be disappointed if they take everything they read on the internet with a little skepticism and common sense instead of as the gospel truth or anything other than the opinion that it is. It's not like what people post around here makes a whole lot of difference whether something gets built or not. But if someone thinks it could hurt their credibility at work by revealing inside stuff - I respect that.

How much one chooses to believe around here as actual fact is their own responsibility. With that being said, keep posting what you can, Niche. I like reading that you think the projects you are hearing inside info about (that will make us all gleeful) are real. You don't need sources to post opinion. Of course, it would be nice.

How about a time table??? - WHEN will we be gleeful?

I'm hoping the "trick the info out of him" method will work better than the "pissing him off" approach - which is getting us nowhere.

LOL Good luck with that. Just keep in mind the old saying: "It's hard to get blood out of a turnip." ;-)

[nmainguy]

A little optimism never hurt anyone.

Exactly. And if you've followed my and other's posts on any number of Houston projects, we are optimists when optimism is warrented. I remember a time when many members doubted the Pavilions. I didn't because we had been presented with facts and most of us realize early time-tables mean nothing. $$ do. So you are right to press someone who alludes to "inside buz" but backs it up with nothing. As Gary said, "He's either lying or telling the truth." Only he knows.

[TheNiche]

Not annoyed in the least... but HIGHLY AMUSED. Anyone who reads the papers, or follows Mayor White's statements, or even follows this forum, already knows there is a lot of "insider buzz" about projects throughout downtown.

Oh, that's just part of it.

How about a time table??? - WHEN will we be gleeful?

You will most likely be made gleeful on many multiple occaisions. Timing is hard to pin down at this point.

[RedScare]

You guys lay off of Niche. If you hang around ANYONE with ties to Houston commercial real estate, you would hear this stuff, too. Even I have heard some of the rumors of things to come downtown from a couple of architect friends. It's not like this stuff is a state secret. It is not surprising at all that Niche is hearing these things, given his line of work.

[tamtagon]

...just a formative observation, seems like it's the high polish of Niche's delivery that incites an urge to scratch-up the office cooler content more than anything else. A willingness to superimpose personal shoptalk onto similarly themed media 'reports' is often enough to trigger a discusion forum's skepticism, but when "secret & vague insider info" is as nicely packaged and presented as Niche's, it's going to attract a lot of attention. you know whatever at least the good grammar is refershing haha

As far as the revised thread topic, Victory Park Development versus Consolidated East Downtown Houston Development, I'll predicatablly stick with the Victory Park vote. Like, the scale of developments seems to tally about the same billions of dollars, and both expanded the downtown footprints; but I think the "snooty" high-end cornerstone of Victory Park will mean more to the greater downtown Dallas environment than will have been added to the greater downtown Houston environment through the mainstream mega-stadium based expandion on the eastside.

Viewing the overall demographics of the two population centers, "Rich & Fancy" has a very important role to downtown Dallas while "Rich & Fancy" in Houston is more important to Uptown and the Galleria. There exists a greater need in DTDallas for the specialized amenities being delivered by Victory Park than exists for the borad based amenities associated with Eastside DTHouston development. I hope that makes sense.... that Dallas needs it more: this final geographic connection of million+ dollar dwellings, tip-top tier hotel, retail and dining venues a to create a contiguous swath of affluence linking Preston Hollow, Highland Park and Turtle Creek to downtown Dallas.

[Houston19514]

You guys lay off of Niche. If you hang around ANYONE with ties to Houston commercial real estate, you would hear this stuff, too. Even I have heard some of the rumors of things to come downtown from a couple of architect friends. It's not like this stuff is a state secret. It is not surprising at all that Niche is hearing these things, given his line of work.

That was our point, Red. Everyone who pays any attention has already heard that there are a lot of exciting developments brewing for downtown. I live hundreds of miles from downtown Houston and I'm aware of the "insider talk". If one wants to have credibility as having insider scoop, one needs to back up the very general reiteration of rumors with something substantive that goes beyond what we've all read in the newspaper. Good grief, Niche told us nothing more than had already been printed by even the clueless Chronicle. We can all pretend to be insiders by repeating on these boards what we've read in the newspaper or a press release...

[TheNiche]

That was our point, Red. Everyone who pays any attention has already heard that there are a lot of exciting developments brewing for downtown. I live hundreds of miles from downtown Houston and I'm aware of the "insider talk". If one wants to have credibility as having insider scoop, one needs to back up the very general reiteration of rumors with something substantive that goes beyond what we've all read in the newspaper. Good grief, Niche told us nothing more than had already been printed by even the clueless Chronicle.

As I've already established, what has been publicly disclosed in any form is only part of what is being planned. There's much more that I'm aware of. You may even have information just like mine, but then, I didn't post in order to make you optimistic. I posted to inform the layperson that has to rely upon the Chronicle and other mainstream media providers for their news that there is reason to embrace a level of optimism over and above what would be justified by from media stories alone.

We can all pretend to be insiders by repeating on these boards what we've read in the newspaper or a press release...

Uh, no. The newspaper and news releases are public information. If that is the limit of one's knowledge, then they are not insiders, and can pretend no better than I could pretend to be an official of the City of Dallas, if I were so inclined.

[Mister X]

I could listen to you insiders battle it out all day. At some point, one of you is bound to spill something.

This thread is starting to evolve into a much more interesting topic than just another boring Houston/Dallas pissing match. I think it should be continued under a new topic thread so that those wierd Dallasonians don't interupt the far more interesting topic of 'Houston insider buzz' and 'dueling real estate experts' with more boring Victory crap (like anyone still cares about Victory's impact to DT Dallas) Yawn.

As lame as this thread can get, the topic is starting to get (slightly) hijacked. After all, this is the thread to come to when you're in the mood to hear Victory commercials. Hopefully, there's enough exciting stuff coming to all of DT Houston (not just the east end) that no one at HAIF will even remember Victory Park exist in a few months. It already feels so "last year" anyway. It's time to move forward and leave this thread to the Enzyte junkies.

[The Great Hizzy!]

I think Mister X is on to something. If we rattle enough cages and yank enough chains, one of our insiders is bound to share more than what they'd originally intended.

So keep it up! >

[tierwestah]

I don't think we should get rid of this thread, i just think that its a fair request for members to not share any information unless they are willing to spill more juice. I'm not trying to get on Niche, he's already taken enough beating!

[Dallasboi]

I could listen to you insiders battle it out all day. At some point, one of you is bound to spill something.

This thread is starting to evolve into a much more interesting topic than just another boring Houston/Dallas pissing match. I think it should be continued under a new topic thread so that those wierd Dallasonians don't interupt the far more interesting topic of 'Houston insider buzz' and 'dueling real estate experts' with more boring Victory crap (like anyone still cares about Victory's impact to DT Dallas) Yawn.

As lame as this thread can get, the topic is starting to get (slightly) hijacked. After all, this is the thread to come to when you're in the mood to hear Victory commercials. Hopefully, there's enough exciting stuff coming to all of DT Houston (not just the east end) that no one at HAIF will even remember Victory Park exist in a few months. It already feels so "last year" anyway. It's time to move forward and leave this thread to the Enzyte junkies.

u are hilarious..........

[Houston19514]

I'd rather talk about downtown Houston in the downtown Houston thread. So, in an attempt to get this back on to the Victory topic... Any recent photos of that new parking garage being built in the center of Victory Park?

[HtownWxBoy]

I'd rather talk about downtown Houston in the downtown Houston thread. So, in an attempt to get this back on to the Victory topic... Any recent photos of that new parking garage being built in the center of Victory Park?

I thought this was a "Victory vs. HP.. which is better for Downtown" thread... so why not talk about both Downtowns?

[NDtexan]

Video: http://www.wfaa.com/video/index.html?nvid=136081&shu=1

Deal 'expected' for Goat Hill, former Baby Doe's site

April 16th, 2007

A big change may soon be coming to the Dallas skyline. The owners of Goat Hill, the home to Baby Doe's Matchless Mine for three decades, are nearing a deal that would bring dramatic changes to the five acres adjacent to the booming Victory development. WFAA.com mobile journalist, MoJo, Aaron Chimbel, has learned that a zoning change has been requested and a sale could come soon after.

Technically, Goat Hill is not Victory, but it is just north of the area, and would have spectacular views of the development. Seeing as this thread has already meandered way the hell off topic, I figured posting this here wouldn't really hurt.

[tierwestah]

Found this on DFW forum

Dallas' Victory Park too ambitious?

Victory Park is designed to be an entertainment mecca, a showcase for architecture and video art, and a major North Texas tourist attraction. But some question its upscale ambitions.

By CARY DARLING

STAR-TELEGRAM POP CULTURE CRITIC

DALLAS -- It's Monday midmorning on Victory Plaza -- the new, sleek promenade leading to American Airlines Center -- and the place is flashing with electronic life. The ticker above the all-glass WFAA/Channel 8 studio is streaming the news of the day while animated robots fly across the looming giant screens, all eight of them, that line the plaza.

But, except for an occasional member of a construction crew ambling by, it's as empty as school on Christmas.

Cut to nighttime, though, and -- especially if there's a Mavs or Stars game -- crowds surge through, seemingly impressed by the high-tech razzle-dazzle. Some even whoop and holler, in mindless Today-show style, outside the TV studio while the late news is being broadcast. Al Roker would be proud.

Cary Darling, 817-390-7571 cdarling@star-telegram.com

[rantanamo]

Good article that articulates a lot of the concerns that we have.

[slfunk]

Here's a fun clip of the Mavs Mania in Victory plaza before a playoff game.

http://www.wfaa.com/video/index.html?nvid=138883&shu=1

[RedScare]

Here's a couple of pics of what it looked like after GAME 1.

[Dallasboi]

Well......Losing just dosent sit well with us Dallasites Check back Later.

[RedScare]

I predict that the Mavericks will become the winningest team in NBA history to NOT win the championship, topping the collossal flop of the 93-94 Seattle Supersonics, who went 63-19, before losing to the 42-40 Denver Nuggets. Seattle won 64 games the next year, only to lose to the Bulls in the finals. And then there's the 65-17 Utah Jazz, who merely lost to MJ and the Bulls in 97.