Buffalo Bayou Master Plan

[AtticaFlinch]

Ayn Rand would probably agree with that sentiment (reference her portrayal of Richard Halley character from Atlas Shrugged). And so would I. If someone wants to volunteer, let them--but do not coerce them.

I could easily frame the concepts of guilt and duty as subtle and/or subliminal forms of coercion. As such, ALL forms of volunteerism, or any form of labor without monetary compensation, are the products of coercion. There's always some form of psychological motivation, even if it can't be commoditized, and most especially even if it isn't exploitative.

[livincinco]

Ayn Rand would probably agree with that sentiment (reference her portrayal of Richard Halley character from Atlas Shrugged). And so would I. If someone wants to volunteer, let them--but do not coerce them.

I agree with that, but the question is related to children, who by legal definition, are not capable of making their own independent decisions. Many adults gain a measure of satisfaction from helping others in ways that do not directly benefit them (other than the satisfaction that they gain from their actions). They are passing along to children something that they find rewarding to allow those children to determine whether they feel the same.

When they become adults, they get to make a decision as to whether they want to volunteer for these types of activities.

[TheNiche]

I could easily frame the concepts of guilt and duty as subtle and/or subliminal forms of coercion. As such, ALL forms of volunteerism, or any form of labor without monetary compensation, are the products of coercion. There's always some form of psychological motivation, even if it can't be commoditized, and most especially even if it isn't exploitative.

I would agree with that as a broad interpretation. My point, however, is that I personally find the coercion of children to be repugnant, in particular when it is very intentionally carried out by institutional authority figures. If a child decides of their own free volition to go and clean up a park, I may not understand what they're getting out of it but have no problem with it.

[TheNiche]

I agree with that, but the question is related to children, who by legal definition, are not capable of making their own independent decisions. Many adults gain a measure of satisfaction from helping others in ways that do not directly benefit them (other than the satisfaction that they gain from their actions). They are passing along to children something that they find rewarding to allow those children to determine whether they feel the same.

When they become adults, they get to make a decision as to whether they want to volunteer for these types of activities.

Read that over again and pretend we were debating the age of consent.

[AtticaFlinch]

I would agree with that as a broad interpretation. My point, however, is that I personally find the coercion of children to be repugnant, in particular when it is very intentionally carried out by institutional authority figures.

Everybody finds the coercion of children to be repugnant. It's pretty hard to disagree with that. My point is, getting kids to clean up a park isn't coercive, and certainly no more so than getting adults to help ABC TV to build a house.

If a child decides of their own free volition to go and clean up a park, I may not understand what they're getting out of it but have no problem with it.

Children don't have free volition. They're wards of their parents - legally, intellectually and emotionally. If a parent decides for their child that the child is going to clean the shores of the bayou, then the parents acted as a proxy for the child's free volition. And, if the parents were manipulated or coerced, I don't think you would have an argument against that as you've already dismissed the gullibility of adults as being unworthy of concern.

[TheNiche]

Everybody finds the coercion of children to be repugnant. It's pretty hard to disagree with that. My point is, getting kids to clean up a park isn't coercive, and certainly no more so than getting adults to help ABC TV to build a house.

Children don't have free volition. They're wards of their parents - legally, intellectually and emotionally. If a parent decides for their child that the child is going to clean the shores of the bayou, then the parents acted as a proxy for the child's free volition. And, if the parents were manipulated or coerced, I don't think you would have an argument against that as you've already dismissed the gullibility of adults as being unworthy of concern.

I have not already dismissed the gullibility of adults as being unworthy of concern.

[T 2 THA C]

Imo, its about helping your community and enjoying with your kids. Its a chance to do something as a family with other families while helping the environment. If only the kids/adults that actually use Buffalo Bayou assisted in cleaning it up, then it would be trashy all the time. Not assisting in cleaning up the bayou because I don't live next to it is like saying we should not help with the oil spill because its not affecting our beaches. What a perfect world it would be if all kids decided on their own to clean up the parks they use? To me its not coercion, because personally if my niece or nephew did not want to help out, then I would not make them do it just to simply satisfy me. Also the cleanup is 1 hour & 1/2 followed by a fashion show.

[AtticaFlinch]

I have not already dismissed the gullibility of adults as being unworthy of concern.

Sure you have. You've said, in essence, that if an adult volunteers, it was by that adult's choice, and that adult can leave if they so choose. It fails to take into account that coercion, by its very nature, eliminates choice. A coerced adult has no more ability to come and go than a coerced child. That said, you still haven't shown that getting children to think civic-mindedly amounts to coercion.

If the house-building schlubs are there of their own free volition, then whatever... Good for them. They must value the experience, and they can leave if they don't.

[Sunstar]

Forget about the Buffalo Bayou Master Plan, now we've got the Houston Bayou Greenway Initiative, a Master plan of Master plans, sort of speak:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7114095.html

http://www.houstonparksboard.org/projects/bayou_greenways_initiative.php

Estimated Cost: $500 Million

Miles of new or upgraded hike-and-bike trails: 250 miles

The gleam in Ed Wulfe's eyes: Priceless!

[20thStDad]

Forget about the Buffalo Bayou Master Plan, now we've got the Houston Bayou Greenway Initiative, a Master plan of Master plans, sort of speak:

http://www.chron.com...an/7114095.html

http://www.houstonpa..._initiative.php

Estimated Cost: $500 Million

Miles of new or upgraded hike-and-bike trails: 250 miles

The gleam in Ed Wulfe's eyes: Priceless!

Hell yeah! Best use of government $ ever. I hope I see it completed in my lifetime.

[august948]

To bad they can't extend the terry hershey trail along buffalo bayou east past the beltway.

[20thStDad]

I guess the biggest progress from the April photos above are the pilons.

From the Allen/right bank side:

They're paving new pathways all over, this one from the trail up to Montrose where there wasn't one before (Allen side)

A few from the Memorial/left bank side:

[fatesdisastr]

Nice pictures, thanks. I have been wondering how this has been going. Good to see the progress

[20thStDad]

I guess I could have said more, but they are doing work all up and down the part between Waugh and Sabine (that's all we walked today). There were more paths leading up from the trail when it goes on the north side of Memorial for a bit, maybe there is a tie-in to the neighborhood there?? Somewhere close to Sawyer St maybe? I couldn't really tell and we didn't go up the paths since some were incomplete. There was a lot more dirt/silt on parts of the trail than there used to be. And not just a little, but 6 inches of it or more in some spots.

[sevfiv]

Schedule for RoseMont bridge - Memorial will be closed this weekend:

Saturday October 16, 2010 - Close Memorial Dr. Three Sections of the bridge scheduled to be delivered and erected. One section that spans over Memorial Drive and two sections on the North Bank of Buffalo Bayou.

Saturday October 23, 2010 - One section of the bridge, (widest), will be delivered and off-loaded from Studemont Bridge and placed onto the South Bank of Buffalo Bayou. 2 hour duration.

Wednesday, October 27, 2010 - Two sections of the bridge to be delivered and erected on South Bank side of Buffalo Bayou.

Thursday October 28, 2010 - Three sections of the bridge to be delivered and erected on South Bank side of Buffalo Bayou. The (widest section) mentioned above, (10/23/10), will also be erected within this two day period.

This will complete the initial installation of the bridge.

With the aforementioned, the project is subject to unexpected delays and MDC will keep you informed if any changes occur.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks,

Jack Christison

Millis Development & Construction, Inc.

[uhlaw09]

Saturday, Oct. 16 -- 11:00AM:

[20thStDad]

Question (maybe a dumb one): It's a "pedestrian" bridge, but can I ride my bike across it? Obviously this depends on landings, but those usually have ramps instead of steps. It's just kind of crazy getting down there with the kid trailer sometimes. Might be just as crazy trying to go down a ramp with it.

[Highway6]

Question (maybe a dumb one): It's a "pedestrian" bridge, but can I ride my bike across it? Obviously this depends on landings, but those usually have ramps instead of steps. It's just kind of crazy getting down there with the kid trailer sometimes. Might be just as crazy trying to go down a ramp with it.

I'm sure it has to be ADA accessible.. so ramped with a min slope. Bikes and kid trailers shouldn't be a problem.

[tanith27]

There aren't any steps at any point. Ramps on both sides of the bayou.

[plumber2]

Isn't this the exact same spot where the old Southern Pacific bridge was located? Why didn't they just keep the old rail bridge in place and modify it for pedestrians. It couldn't have been in that bad of shape.

[mfastx]

Isn't this the exact same spot where the old Southern Pacific bridge was located?

Isn't that the bridge that was in Jason's Lyric? If so, it looked like it was in pretty bad shape.

['Stonian]

Because this is Houston..., "Out with the Old, in with the New"!

[HTX]

Isn't this the exact same spot where the old Southern Pacific bridge was located? Why didn't they just keep the old rail bridge in place and modify it for pedestrians. It couldn't have been in that bad of shape.

I thought the same thing. I have also wondered if it would be possible to add a crossover under the Sabine St. bridge using the existing foundations for pedestrians and bikes since there are no ramps, just steps to get from street level down to the bayou path.

[Houston19514]

Isn't this the exact same spot where the old Southern Pacific bridge was located? Why didn't they just keep the old rail bridge in place and modify it for pedestrians. It couldn't have been in that bad of shape.

That old wooden railroad trestle was taken out about 10 years ago. It seems likely that even if it was still there, re-habbing an old wooden railroad trestle into a bike and pedestrian bridge (and then continuing the maintenance on an old wooden railroad trestle) would cost more than building this new structure. Especially when one considers the ingress/egress points provided by the new bridge vs. what would have been provided by the old railroad trestle.

Edited October 20, 2010 by Houston19514

[TheNiche]

Isn't this the exact same spot where the old Southern Pacific bridge was located?

I can confirm, you are correct.

[RedScare]

That old wooden railroad trestle was taken out about 10 years ago. It seems likely that even if it was still there, re-habbing an old wooden railroad trestle into a bike and pedestrian bridge (and then continuing the maintenance on an old wooden railroad trestle) would cost more than building this new structure. Especially when one considers the ingress/egress points provided by the new bridge vs. what would have been provided by the old railroad trestle.

You mean like they just did with the railroad trestles over White Oak Bayou and Studewood for the Heights bike trail?

[mfastx]

My guess is that they removed the abandoned bridge before they knew they were going to build anything else there.

[Houston19514]

On 10/20/2010 at 11:48 AM, RedScare said:

You mean like they just did with the railroad trestles over White Oak Bayou and Studewood for the Heights bike trail?

Yes, exactly like that. Oh except for the salient differences already mentioned in my post: (1) those bridges had not been removed 10 years beforehand. And (2) those bridges provided the exact path and exact Ingres and egress points desired for the bike path.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Houston19514

[skwatra]

From today, looking north from the Allen Parkway side

[LTAWACS]

I see it all the time when going home. It's quite dull I must say.