Texas Central Project

[mfastx]

14 hours ago, gmac said:

Just as most of you love skyscrapers, a concept I find to be outmoded (I'm more of a low-rise architecture fan), you appear to love this fantastical train idea. I would prefer public investments go to designing and implementing highway changes/upgrades to safely handle autonomous vehicles.

 

Let's see what happens. I'm willing to bet that if this thing does come to fruition it will cost north of $40 billion and a large chunk of that will be taken from the public wallet.

 

People want alternatives.  All over the world, when given the option, HSR wins against airlines for distances such as Dallas - Houston.  We already invest plenty in highways.  

[Amlaham]

12 hours ago, gmac said:

 

Because right now it exists only in people's imaginations.

 

I have ridden tens of thousands of miles on trains in my life. They serve their purpose, but not here, in my mind. I understand that others heartily disagree with me.

 

This translate to: I rode a lot of trains before when I didn't have a car in other cities, but since I have a car here I don't think it should be built.

 

Also why do you care how much it costs? Its a private company and even if they did use SOME public money, It's NOWHERE near the price of the roughly 7-10 billion for the i45 project thats only 24 miles long in 1 city VS the 0 dollars from public wallet (40 billion PRIVATE) for 240 miles serving 2 of the largest cities in America. Also this will have a huge economic impact in a sector we don't have in Texas. Students from A&M will use these during holidays or visiting family in Dallas/ Houston (I have friends who discussed this already :)), the thousands of businessmen/ women who travel between the cities each week, during big events (maybe even the World Cup 2026), the fact that this will create 1,500 permanent jobs, the fact that they will pay taxes to state and local counties (highways don't :)), when big companies choose cities for their events or projects they look at mass transportation (one of the reasons amazon didn't pick Houston). So its clearly obvious that this project would have a MASSIVE impact on the city and state in general, but since you don't think it would benefit you personally, its "fantastical"  

Edited June 10, 2020 by Amlaham

[gmac]

11 hours ago, Amlaham said:

 

This translate to: I rode a lot of trains before when I didn't have a car in other cities, but since I have a car here I don't think it should be built.

 

Also why do you care how much it costs? Its a private company and even if they did use SOME public money, It's NOWHERE near the price of the roughly 7-10 billion for the i45 project thats only 24 miles long in 1 city VS the 0 dollars from public wallet (40 billion PRIVATE) for 240 miles serving 2 of the largest cities in America. Also this will have a huge economic impact in a sector we don't have in Texas. Students from A&M will use these during holidays or visiting family in Dallas/ Houston (I have friends who discussed this already :)), the thousands of businessmen/ women who travel between the cities each week, during big events (maybe even the World Cup 2026), the fact that this will create 1,500 permanent jobs, the fact that they will pay taxes to state and local counties (highways don't :)), when big companies choose cities for their events or projects they look at mass transportation (one of the reasons amazon didn't pick Houston). So its clearly obvious that this project would have a MASSIVE impact on the city and state in general, but since you don't think it would benefit you personally, its "fantastical"  

 

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by gmac

[BeerNut]

http://texasrailadvocates.org/2020/07/16/extraordinary-stb-decision-texas-central-railway-is-part-of-the-interstate-rail-network/

 

Quote

In a 15 page decision, the Surface Transportation Board affirmed that Texas Central Railway is officially part of the interstate rail network. In its finding the SurfBoard indicated that “due to substantially changed circumstances, the Board now finds that the proposed rail line would be constructed and operated as part of the interstate rail network and therefore subject to Board jurisdiction.”  Texas Central had argued that its through-ticketing and transfer arrangements with Amtrak would establish Board jurisdiction.

 

[Houston19514]

9 hours ago, BeerNut said:

http://texasrailadvocates.org/2020/07/16/extraordinary-stb-decision-texas-central-railway-is-part-of-the-interstate-rail-network/

 

 

 

Cool  (And now we can see the primary purpose of TCR having entered into the through-ticketing arrangement with Amtrak... Genius!)

[HouTXRanger]

3 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

 

Cool  (And now we can see the primary purpose of TCR having entered into the through-ticketing arrangement with Amtrak... Genius!)

 

Yeah, that's super smart. Not that I thought there was a serious chance of the lower courts ruling being overturned by the Texas Supreme court, but this is a massive blow to the opposition. If i didn't know better I'd say the case is pretty much open and shut now.

Now if they could only secure the rest of the funding . . .

[wilcal]

Houston-to-Dallas bullet train given green light from feds

 

Quote

Texas Central Railroad, the company planning to operate trains from Houston to Dallas with a stop near College Station, said early Monday that the Federal Railroad Administration had issued both the Record of Decision that ends the environmental analysis and the Rule of Particular Applicability that governs the safety standards the Japanese-developed trains must use.

 

[Triton]

11 hours ago, wilcal said:

Houston-to-Dallas bullet train given green light from feds

 

 

 

Fingers crossed.

[wilcal]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-01/fortress-fails-to-sell-record-bond-deal-for-las-vegas-rail

 

Vegas to Southern California fails to sell their bonds. Have to think that's a much more desirable market than Houston to Dallas.

 

Quote

Fortress Investment Group is postponing its plan to build a train to Las Vegas from Southern California after failing to sell a record amount of unrated municipal debt to finance the speculative project, showing the limits of investor appetite amid an economic downturn.

 

 

Since the end of September, Fortress, through its company Brightline Holdings, had been marketing $3.2 billion of debt to be issued through California and Nevada agencies. It subsequently reduced the size to a still-record offering of $2.4 billion and tried to purchase some of the bonds it sold for a Florida rail as a way to entice investors to commit to the Las Vegas sale before terminating that buyback offer Friday.

 

 

“Unfortunately there is not a lot of liquidity in the market and a lot of economic uncertainty at this moment,” California Treasurer Fiona Ma said Saturday by email. “The project is postponed until market liquidity improves.”

 

[cspwal]

I would hate to be trying to raise capital for anything that depended on lots of people in one spot

[j.33]

Issue with LA-Vegas is the line is not technically LA-Vegas, it is currently planned to Vegas-Victorville with an extension in the future to LA. That means Angelenos would have to drive at least 75-90 minutes to reach Victorville. No one would want to do that. The line will only be successful if they make it go to Union Station, which they're unable to do at the moment. Not surprised it is delayed, their plan isn't the best from the start. With that said, I wouldn't compare CA's situation with HSR with Texas. I do believe HSR Texas can be successful, but CA has just had too many hiccups and negative press on both their LA-Bay Area and LA-Vegas proposals to really see the actual plans being a success. 

[wilcal]

I truly hope so!

[gmac]

https://abc13.com/high-speed-rail-in-texas-bullet-train-between-houston-and-dallas-tribune-to/8040133/

 

Not so fast there...

[Andrew Ewert]

I will never get over how a few dozen or hundred property owners are holding hostage an infrastructure project that will benefit millions and be a major win for the environment. Just take your fair payout and let the rest of the world make progress.

[cougarpad]

On 11/23/2020 at 5:07 PM, Andrew Ewert said:

I will never get over how a few dozen or hundred property owners are holding hostage an infrastructure project that will benefit millions and be a major win for the environment. Just take your fair payout and let the rest of the world make progress.

Also the land needed for the rail line is not that massive with a good chunk of the rail going through a power line corridor. The rail line also is raised so if this has to do do with cattle than I'm sure a cow can go underneath the raised rail like cars would at an intersection. Would these landowners rather TEXDOT build a massive freeway through their property to help ease congestion between Houston and Dallas?

Edited December 1, 2020 by cougarpad

[Texasota]

Probably. They use freeways, so they make more sense to them. Trains are for Europeans and communists probably.

[august948]

5 hours ago, Texasota said:

Probably. They use freeways, so they make more sense to them. Trains are for Europeans and communists probably.

 

 

This is rumored to be one of the new engines...

[august948]

5 hours ago, cougarpad said:

Also the land needed for the rail line is not that massive with a good chunk of the rail going through a power line corridor. The rail line also is raised so if this has to do do with cattle than I'm sure a cow can go underneath the raised rail like cars would at an intersection. Would these landowners rather TEXDOT build a massive freeway through their property to help ease congestion between Houston and Dallas?

 

I suspect this doesn't have anything really to do with cattle or power line corridors.  If the proposal was to build a new highway in this same corridor you'd still get the same opposition.  From their perspective, you're altering the landscape they love and grew up with and not adding any benefit for them other than a few dollars.  Why wouldn't some people oppose that?

[cspwal]

I don't understand why Texas Central doesn't even try to placate them with small stations in each county; you can have local trains that stop there, but still have express trains that make the 90 minute trip between Houston & Dallas

[gmac]

I have to believe that everyone pulling for this thing to be rammed through is also fine with the I-45 expansion. I mean it's just people's land, right?

[cspwal]

There's more homes that will be demolished (~1000) than parcels of land that Texas Central still needs to acquire (~900)

[mfastx]

21 hours ago, gmac said:

I have to believe that everyone pulling for this thing to be rammed through is also fine with the I-45 expansion. I mean it's just people's land, right?

 

I mean, everyone was apparently fine with building highways to no end that take up way more property/homes than a rail line ever would (and continue to take up more even after they are built!), so I see it as a bit hypocritical to be staunchly opposed to a rail line for these reasons. 

[samagon]

21 hours ago, gmac said:

I have to believe that everyone pulling for this thing to be rammed through is also fine with the I-45 expansion. I mean it's just people's land, right?

 

the displacement of homes, families, communities and businesses from the corridor are also a huge negative factor of both wider freeways, and new rail projects, and if that were the only factor in the equation, then sure, I'd be staunchly against both.

 

the thing is, there's more involved in the equation...

 

with a wider freeway, there's going to be a lot more air pollution introduced to the region.

there's numerous studies that wider freeways don't actually fix the problem the politicians say they fix (IE: reducing traffic, increasing overall speeds, reducing accidents). there are actually studies that show that making freeways wider will make congestion worse, and that the rate of accidents will not decline.

 

with this HSR project, there's going to be less need for air travel, and car travel, thus reducing pollution from airplanes. 

with the HSR the rail is electric so the source can be anything from coal to renewable to nuclear. but the direct impact to the region will be less.

add to that travelers may choose to rail rather than drive, so now there's less congestion on these rural roads, maybe the state doesn't need to create town bypasses taking homes/land anyway.

 

so no, HSR isn't at all associative to the i45 project.

  

3 minutes ago, mfastx said:

 

I mean, everyone was apparently fine with building highways to no end that take up way more property/homes than a rail line ever would (and continue to take up more even after they are built!), so I see it as a bit hypocritical to be staunchly opposed to a rail line for these reasons. 

 

yup, if we're going to apply the simplest of correlations one way, it has to be true the other right?

 

if you are against the HSR, you must be against the i45 project!

Edited December 3, 2020 by samagon

[Avossos]

I am for both projects, but also for different reasons:

 

HSR - Reducing the need for car travel between Houston and Dallas / plus greater economic connectivity / shortened travel time.

 

i45 - Removing more above ground freeway / park caps / improved infrastructure / a better looking core

 

Each have positives and negatives. However both are a slam dunk IMO. 

[gmac]

54 minutes ago, samagon said:

if you are against the HSR, you must be against the i45 project!

 

Bingo! Both are huge boondoggles that should be shelved immediately.

[cspwal]

The two projects are both large infrastructure, with about the same price tag, but the similarities break down after that.

 

The I-45 expansion is going to be 100% government funded, built, and maintained.  It's construction impact will be entirely in one part of the Houston (downtown & north Houston), while the benefits will be mostly for those who want to get from north-northwest Houston area to downtown and back.  It will displace about a 1000 people from their current homes, as well as businesses and other organization.  That being said, it might be justified to as 45-North is one of the spines of Houston.

 

Texas Central Rail is primarily privately funded; the land has to be paid for by a private company (even if acquired through eminent domain), the construction won't start unless they raise the capital the need, and it will be run and maintained by the private company to make money. The government will only pay for administrative and regulatory stuff that the government itself is imposing, as well as TxDot will rebuild road crossings where the line will cross.  So right there, the big $40 billion price tag is not on us (the public) but on the private investors who think they can make money.  

Additionally, the 1000 parcels that they need to acquire aren't 1000 homes - they're pieces of land that is used for farming and such right now.  It will definitely not be available to farm, but losing an acre of crop space is very different from losing your home.  And the land would be an easement, only for RR use - if they can't raise their $40B, then it stays farmland.  Finally, even a HSR is going to be much narrower than a freeway - it's about the width of a two-lane highway, which is narrower than the amount 45 is going to be expanded.

 

And since the train is going from Houston - Dallas, it's primarily for everyone in Houston & Dallas who would want to travel to the other place.  That's the only thing they could add - local stops in the counties, advertising a quick, seamless connection to DFW or IAH to the people who have to drive hours right now to fly anywhere.

[gmac]

1 hour ago, cspwal said:

And since the train is going from Houston - Dallas, it's primarily for everyone in Houston & Dallas who would want to travel to the other place.  That's the only thing they could add - local stops in the counties, advertising a quick, seamless connection to DFW or IAH to the people who have to drive hours right now to fly anywhere.

 

Which would neuter its very purpose of providing a rapid link between the two major cities. Plus, the stations at either end, as proposed, are nowhere near any airports.

[cspwal]

You can have express trains and local trains on the same line; the counties are large enough that you can have acceleration space for the locals between each station so they don't slow down the express trains, and you can also put in points in the track for passing.

 

And I was thinking of a TCR branded shuttle service, where you pay TCR the same price as parking at IAH for that time period, and park at the rural station, and you would get a train ride to the station, with a shuttle to bring you to the airport, with your bags transferred from the train to shuttle.  It could be run as a loss leader to get people used to riding the train into town, or run to make a profit

[gmac]

5 hours ago, cspwal said:

You can have express trains and local trains on the same line

 

From TCR's own website:

 

"The Texas High-Speed Train will operate on secure, separate, closed tracks dedicated fully to high-speed passenger trains with no sharing with freight or other passenger rail services, and no dangerous roadway intersections for vehicles, pedestrians or animals to have to cross."

[august948]

10 hours ago, gmac said:

 

From TCR's own website:

 

"The Texas High-Speed Train will operate on secure, separate, closed tracks dedicated fully to high-speed passenger trains with no sharing with freight or other passenger rail services, and no dangerous roadway intersections for vehicles, pedestrians or animals to have to cross."

 

I think by that they mean not sharing with conventional freight or passenger (amtrak) service.  That's how it works in Japan also.  They could certainly add stations and passing tracks if they wanted.  Now whether that would make sense given the rural nature of the route is a different question.  If they add stations at some point I suspect those might be to additional locations in DFW and Houston.