POST: 401 Franklin Post Office Site Redevelopment

[Triton]

Not sure why everyone is "let down." Lovett has done some fantastic redevelopment work. I think with everyone's expectations being so low now, they'll be impressed with whatever Lovett throws out there. Good strategy, Lovett... it's like the anti-Hotel-Alessandra strategy. Make people feel uncomfortable that it will be a shopping center and wow them with a crazy mixed-use development.

[cloud713]

I hope you're right Triton.. Lol. Btw, any examples of this "fantastic redevelopment work"?

Edited July 7, 2015 by cloud713

[BigFootsSocks]

I took a look at their portfolio they have listed for Houston on their website and yeah...mostly suburban type deals, but they have a decent amount of inner core stuff going on; biggest one is probably Sawyer Yards. It is pretty cool that they are converting some of those warehouses into art studios...but I'd rather they do it there than with the Post Office buildings.

[LS27]

The potential redevelopment of the warehouse at Polk/Dowling also looks promising, though cant say fantastic until it comes to fruition, if the execution is good. I wouldn't imagine Liu would try to recreate a Sawyer/Washington "Heights" type spot here, I think it would be at least a few notches above that.

[intencity77]

A project this size seems way of scale for little old Lovett Commercial. I hope they know what they're doing.

[Luminare]

A project this size seems way of scale for little old Lovett Commercial. I hope they know what they're doing.

 

Honestly its way to big for any one developer to handle. The city should be carrying the responsibility of masterplaning the area and then divide up the various projects to many different developers. Thats how it should be done, but the city refuses to take any responsibility for any semblance of city planning.

[H-Town Man]

The land cost dictates it must be something more dense than a shopping center, because the income return on a shopping center is too low. What that is, I don't know. Hines built warehouses and small office buildings before he built the Galleria. Maybe this will be their Galleria. Probably not, but one can hope. I wonder if flood plain discouraged some bigger players?

Keep in mind, when I-45 is rerouted, the potential for this site completely changes. We really don't want anything too major being built there before then.

[Luminare]

The land cost dictates it must be something more dense than a shopping center, because the income return on a shopping center is too low. What that is, I don't know. Hines built warehouses and small office buildings before he built the Galleria. Maybe this will be their Galleria. Probably not, but one can hope. I wonder if flood plain discouraged some bigger players?

Keep in mind, when I-45 is rerouted, the potential for this site completely changes. We really don't want anything too major being built there before then.

 

Thats the only silver lining in all of this. The scale in terms of buildings they are looking at is very small, but its the "2,500 people" that just has me puzzled. Even a few wraps will not get you to that number. At most 2-3 wraps would only get you to about 500-1000. I still think they have no idea what they really have on their hands. Gerald Hines is a little different though. Even though he was small time he clearly hand a vision of Houston that others didn't have and he knew the best of the best at the time to do exactly what his vision was. I don't really see a visionary among this company unless someone can lead me the other way on this?

[BigFootsSocks]

Thank you John Madden

[BigFootsSocks]

What we do know are the projects they currently have in their portfolio so it actually could be like what they've already done

[wxman]

On the other hand, I'm not sure a mult-story highrise would look good or 'fit' this area. It would really eff with the views coming in from the north frwy---not that any developer takes into account the 'view.'

[Montrose1100]

Why though? That building utilizes the land in the worst possible way. Its a symbol of an era of mistakes and missed opportunities. Its not only a poor use of the land, but its a planning mistake from the word go! Keeping the building or reusing it severely limits the potential of the site by instantly making anything that gets built having to revolve around it. Its not even a very good building to begin with. Average at best. It isn't even unique to its own time. It interrupts what would be the best possible correction in the street grid which is to kill Franklin before the bayou and restore Washington as the primary link into the city. The site itself has a chance to be a gateway into downtown. As of right now its nothing but an afterthought.

Just watch the only thing they will do is keep the entire building as is and then place a few wraps around it and a few strip centers and call it a day! The city should have been more responsible and not give it to the highest bid (if it even was the highest) and instead give it to a group who would utilize it create something truly unique, a group who was giving the best value.

Maybe I'm the crazy one here...idk. I thought that this was a site that could hold the key to a new Houston with a new vision/mentality, but I guess not. Its nothing but business as usual. We been thinking that the city was moving forward when really (lets admit it) is only chasing the latest trend instead of being trendsetters. Whatever....In about 10-15 years they are going to start ripping up that elevated piece of highway junk and maybe that will also reveal just what they missed out on and maybe a real difference can be made. Why settle for mediocre? Why settle for just average?

Is this really how its all going to go down? Seriously? Is there nothing to persuade someone like a Hines or hell even Midway would at least make something decent out of it. These guys have nothing in their portfolio except for typical suburban bs. They have nothing in their portfolio that says they even know what they really have on their hands! Its like some kid got the keys to the car, but has no idea how to drive. All the kid can do is marvel at how awesome it is, but doesn't even know how to even start the dang car!

I just think it's a cute building, that's all. It gave me a nice feeling when I went for my passport renewal.

It could be done very nicely (including the building). they could blend modern with this structure easily creating a "gateway" and fantastic project.

But I'll wait and see what they have in mind. It would be nice to see more residential with easy access to Downtown and the BB park. Some tall, good looking residential...

[Naviguessor]

I don't think I'll be happy if we don't see a nicely designed, but eye catching train station. This would be very nice foreground for downtown.

[bobruss]

You have to keep in mind, when getting angry with the city about this site. The city of Houston had nothing to do with it but bid on

the site, Which they withdraw. This is U.S Post Office property and the government chose the winner. Not the city of Houston.

As for Lovett winning, I'm disappointed and just sent a letter to Mr. Huffman expressing my disappointment. I also quoted him on his

statement about being so lucky to be awarded a sixteen acre site in downtown Houston.

I told him so don't screw it up with one of your suburban housing mixed use strip center style projects.

I told him how important this site was to the development of north Downtown and expecting much more than what they

have done in the past.

I doubt I'll hear back. I told him I was hoping for someone like Midway who I think has done and outstanding job with

City Centre.

[Triton]

Maybe you should just wait until you have enough adequate information before you all get your panties in a wad. It could be anything at this point.

 

Thank you.

[HNathoo]

Does anyone know what the sales price might be? At $100psf, it would be ~$70m. That would be a lot of money to tie up without a plan, especially for a smaller firm.

[cspwal]

Maybe they submitted a bid because they had a fantastical idea of what to put there, not expecting to actually get it...and then they got it

[Triton]

Maybe they submitted a bid because they had a fantastical idea of what to put there, not expecting to actually get it...and then they got it

Seriously?

[houstontexasjack]

To be fair to Frank Liu (head of Lovett Commercial) and as others have alluded, there was a time before Gerald Hines was big time. I think his first skyscraper was One Shell Plaza, and he had done nothing before that was over 5 stories.

This could be Mr. Liu's big break and a chance to show what his vision for Houston is.

[Triton]

Maybe they submitted a bid because they had a fantastical idea of what to put there, not expecting to actually get it...and then they got it

Auctioneer: All right.. start the bidding at $60 million!

 

Midway: $80 million!!

 

Auctioneer: $80 million! Do I hear a $90 million? $90 million folks!

 

Lovett: Uhhh.... uhhh....$90 million!!

 

Auctioneer: Great Scott! $90 million. Do I hear a $100 million? Anybody? $100 million folks! Still at $90 million. Ok......Going once... going twice... sold, to Lovett in the back corner!

 

Lovett employee: S***. Oh no, we got the land!

 

Lovett CEO: My God, what have we done??

[mollusk]

The post office building could be repurposed into a new Union Station combining the HSR with Amtrak's little booth that's currently next door - after all, it's just about exactly on the footprint of the Southern Pacific station that was there beforehand, and the rail lines still run right behind it.  Getting the light rail to it wouldn't even be that bad - just turn the Green/Purple line up through the soon to be sold HPD compound. 

[H-Town Man]

To be fair to Frank Liu (head of Lovett Commercial) and as others have alluded, there was a time before Gerald Hines was big time. I think his first skyscraper was One Shell Plaza, and he had done nothing before that was over 5 stories.

This could be Mr. Liu's big break and a chance to show what his vision for Houston is.

 

Since you bring it up, I should probably mention that I happened to be sitting near Frank and his crew at Niko Niko's in Market Square the other day. I noticed him drawing something on a pad and talking eagerly about it to the other men. When he got up, he took the drawing, but he left the rest of the pad. I walked over and scribbled lightly on the pad with a pencil to pick up the outline of what he had drawn. I couldn't be totally sure, but it looked something like... this:

 

 

[bachanon]

Bwahahahaha...you had me going for a millisecond.

[Montrose1100]

Since you bring it up, I should probably mention that I happened to be sitting near Frank and his crew at Niko Niko's in Market Square the other day. I noticed him drawing something on a pad and talking eagerly about it to the other men. When he got up, he took the drawing, but he left the rest of the pad. I walked over and scribbled lightly on the pad with a pencil to pick up the outline of what he had drawn. I couldn't be totally sure, but it looked something like... this:

Out of all the horrific proposals, I'm glad this one never made it.

[Ross]

Honestly its way to big for any one developer to handle. The city should be carrying the responsibility of masterplaning the area and then divide up the various projects to many different developers. Thats how it should be done, but the city refuses to take any responsibility for any semblance of city planning.

 

What makes you think the City has any capability whatsoever to lead the planning for this? And that's ignoring the fact that the City doesn't own the property or have any interest in the property, and thus has no say in how it gets developed, other than the effects of the relevant ordinances.

 

[astros148]

If this ends up a shopping complex, we should have a major rally

[BigFootsSocks]

Rally to restore sanitary and/or fear?

[LarryDierker]

Wait. What's not sanitary?

[Timoric]

-

Edited July 9, 2019 by Timoric

[BigFootsSocks]

Rally to restore sanitary and/or fear?

NOOOOOOOOOOOO AUTOCORRECT.

[Subdude]

Back to the topic, what I can see as being the most likely outcome for the site is something like Sawyer Heights, with maybe something like a mini-Target and a 5- or 6-floor apartment complex.  It's hard to see the location really justifying a high-rise or high-density development.  

[houstontexasjack]

Back to the topic, what I can see as being the most likely outcome for the site is something like Sawyer Heights, with maybe something like a mini-Target and a 5- or 6-floor apartment complex. It's hard to see the location really justifying a high-rise or high-density development.

On the contrary, it is quite close to Market Square Park and the Theater District in addition to the ballparks. Freeway access is much less friendly than near Sawyer Heights. I think the developer would be well-served to emphasize density and walkability with respect to this development to attract the clientele that would pay a premium for it.

[curbur]

The post office building could be repurposed into a new Union Station combining the HSR with Amtrak's little booth that's currently next door - after all, it's just about exactly on the footprint of the Southern Pacific station that was there beforehand, and the rail lines still run right behind it.  Getting the light rail to it wouldn't even be that bad - just turn the Green/Purple line up through the soon to be sold HPD compound.

It won't happen but man would it be so grand and smart. Connect all the light rails and maybe even commuter rails down the line and it could be Houston's version of Penn Station someday.

[BigFootsSocks]

Hmmmmmm....

http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/morning_call/2015/07/how-a-houston-developers-deal-for-prime-downtown.html

[cloud713]

I heard some disheartening news about this.. One of the big name companies looking to develop this site took soil samples and found contamination..

 

 

Yeah, definitely costly. They had to restructure/resubmit their bid to account for the added expenses.

yep.. Midway was who i was referring to.

Midway CEO Jonathan Brinsden said that the company had the property under contract, but negotiations fell through.

"Yes, we had it under contract at one point, and after a lot of due diligence, found there were some significant issues with the site," Brinsden said. "We ultimately, during our contract period, couldn't get to an agreement with the post office, and they decided to take it back out to the market."

[BigFootsSocks]

Contaminated with what?

[Ross]

Most likely diesel, motor oil, and maybe cleaning chemicals. Lots of trucks in and out of that facility.

[cloud713]

No idea. I just heard from a former Midway employee that they would of had to do site remediation and it totally changed the structure/economics of their bid.

[BayouCityMan]

I'm going to guess its contamination from both the post office trucks and equipment along with the site's previous occupant, the Southern Pacific depot. Think about it... All those trains, probably some sort of maintenance facility etc. There were two separate depots there dating back to the late 1800's.

[houstontexasjack]

Frank Liu is also developing that EPA superfund site, isn't he? If so, he might not be as averse to handling potential environmental clean-up prior to development.

[CREguy13]

It was more of an issue with the foundation is what I'm told.  There are tiebacks in place now for the Bayou, and Midway woud have had to replace all of the tiebacks to bring them up to code with their proposal.  I heard that Midway went to the city to seek a discount for the replacement cost, and the city rejected.

[H-Town Man]

Okay HAIFers, figure me this. It sounds like the site issues make major redevelopment cost prohibitive at this point in time. So we're left with the existing structures. Based on some quick Google Earth measurements, that building has about 215,000 SF of warehouse space. So what do you do with that much space? You make it into a market. Something like Boston's Faneuil Hall, Philadelphia's Reading Terminal, Seattle's Pike Place Market, San Francisco's Fisherman's Wharf/Pier 39, or smaller markets in New Orleans or San Antonio.

Markets in downtowns are big tourist attractions. They give people of all ages and walks of life a reason to go downtown on weekends when there's no baseball game. They're fun and they make people happy. You can't walk through a market hall without smiling at least once. And right now the country is experiencing sort of a "market moment," with the new trend of food markets that sell gourmet and organic food items (these are more than just farmers' markets, although that could be a component too). I think the best example to imitate would be Reading Terminal.



Call it "Old Post Office Market," or just "The Post Office." Put creative loft office space in the office building. Plant some trees in the parking area, and spruce up the bridges leading into downtown, to encourage foot traffic to and fro. Combine restaurants, retail, and gourmet foods to take home, possibly fresh produce also. You really don't have to do too much, since the infrastructure is already in place for truck deliveries. Above all, keep as much vintage look of a 50+ year old building as you can.

I know something like this was tried with Mercado del Sol, but that was a terrible location, and a terrible era for downtown. Downtown's in a much different place now than it was then, and I think this would hit the cusp of a wave of revived interest, as all these other projects get finished.


 

Edited July 23, 2015 by H-Town Man

[monarch]

^^^ would love to have something of this magnitude in houston... wow / yummy!

[Mab]

Okay HAIFers, figure me this. It sounds like the site issues make major redevelopment cost prohibitive at this point in time. So we're left with the existing structures. Based on some quick Google Earth measurements, that building has about 215,000 SF of warehouse space. So what do you do with that much space? You make it into a market. Something like Boston's Faneuil Hall, Philadelphia's Reading Terminal, Seattle's Pike Place Market, San Francisco's Fisherman's Wharf/Pier 39, or smaller markets in New Orleans or San Antonio.

Markets in downtowns are big tourist attractions. They give people of all ages and walks of life a reason to go downtown on weekends when there's no baseball game. They're fun and they make people happy. You can't walk through a market hall without smiling at least once. And right now the country is experiencing sort of a "market moment," with the new trend of food markets that sell gourmet and organic food items (these are more than just farmers' markets, although that could be a component too). I think the best example to imitate would be Reading Terminal.

Call it "Old Post Office Market," or just "The Post Office." Put creative loft office space in the office building. Plant some trees in the parking area, and spruce up the bridges leading into downtown, to encourage foot traffic to and fro. Combine restaurants, retail, and gourmet foods to take home, possibly fresh produce also. You really don't have to do too much, since the infrastructure is already in place for truck deliveries. Above all, keep as much vintage look of a 50+ year old building as you can.

I know something like this was tried with Mercado del Sol, but that was a terrible location, and a terrible era for downtown. Downtown's in a much different place now than it was then, and I think this would hit the cusp of a wave of revived interest, as all these other projects get finished.

 

 This is such a cool idea. H-town man can you send this to Lovett commercial. I can totally see them doing something like this especially with there new sawyer yards development.  

[cloud713]

I've been saying the Post Office site would make a good "Farmers Market District", but I've got to be honest I never thought I'd agree with preserving the post office structure.. Lol. But I'm really digging the idea. Like you said, with the site issues, renovations might be the best bet until land prices eventually go high enough to make it financially feasible to completely tear down/redevelop the site.

But I would add residential lofts, at least some of which could be leased to artists, with studio space in the building along side the market (maybe that's what you meant by creative "office" loft space?), possibly even a new community/downtown art center type thing.

HAIFers wet dream.. Imagine if we were able to take it a step further and have it be a commuter rail station. It could be like Denvers central station terminal. I've never been, but apparently it's quite a happening hub with bars/gathering places to hang out and what not.

[Luminare]

I rather see this in EaDo or the actual warehouse district. Warehouses that might actually be a benefit to save. If this warehouse wasn't so darn huge and enormous and didn't use the site so poorly then sure keep it, but don't understand the movement to all the sudden save an otherwise unremarkable building.

 

H-town. Your idea is seriously awesome...just would be better for a different for a smaller warehouse or one that would be connect to other neighborhoods. Hell grab one of the old warehouses in near Sawyer or any of them down washington or use one in the actual warehouse district.

[cloud713]

because there are clearly site externalities that could prevent someone from redeveloping the site, so the idea here is making the best of what you already have. yeah the building looks pretty crappy, but if it had any of the artsy stuff going on like mentioned above then surely artists would enjoy the exposure of painting up some of the outside walls to make it more eclectic. I'm not sure i agree that this would work as well down Washington or along Sawyer.. those aren't really touristy destinations or central gathering points for anything. downtown (not the warehouse district portion) has much more going for it IMO than the other sites and a large market/gathering place would help with the ongoing renaissance of downtown.

[BigFootsSocks]

Sooo...something sort of like what Lovett is doing at Sawyer Yards? I'm down for that.

[gene]

wow! i love the idea!!!! 

 

[cloud713]

so Lovett IS one of the guys behind Sawyer Yards. i was thinking that was the case but wasn't for sure.. yeah a Sawyer Yards art collective(?), live/work/gallery space type thing, with like a community art center promoting and showcasing the arts in downtown/the city (not sure if they're doing that over at Sawyer Yards?), was what i was envisioning to go with a large central market retail place. the artists would add some of their own local cultural flair to the property so its not so sterile and obviously a former federal building, and could sell some of their works along side the other local vendors at the market.