Texas Central Project

[102IAHexpress]

4 hours ago, gmac said:

No way on earth they should be granted any eminent domain relief for a private venture.

 

On this point the people of the great State of Texas disagree with you. Private railway companies specifically have the right to exercise eminent domain. I would refer you to Tex. Transp. Code Ann. § 112.002 (Vernon):

 

(a) A railroad company has the right to succession.

(b) A railroad company may:

  (1) sue, be sued, plead, and be impleaded in its corporate name;

  (2) have and use a seal and alter the seal at will;

  (3) receive and convey persons and property on its railway by any mechanical power, including the use of steam;

  (4) regulate the time and manner in which, and the compensation for which, passengers and property are transported, subject to the provisions of law;

  (5) exercise the power of eminent domain for the purposes prescribed by this subtitle or Subtitle D;

  (6) purchase, hold, and use all property as necessary for the construction and use of its railway, stations, and other accommodations necessary to accomplish company objectives, and convey that property when no longer required for railway use; and

  (7) take, hold, and use property granted to the company to aid in the construction and use of its railway, and convey that property in a manner consistent with the terms of the grant when the property is no longer required for railway use.

[gmac]

I'm in favor of a good old bloody fight to the death over this useless boondoggle. Plus, I hope many of you lose your homes and property in similar fashion. You know, just to be fair

[Nate99]

I'd still love to see the business case around this thing supporting itself. Eminent domain or not, it seems like a long shot that boils down to "I like trains". 

[ADCS]

17 hours ago, cspwal said:

It's a private venture.  Do we know what status their funding is at?  If they think they can make a billion dollars doing this, it will happen

 

With respect to funding - I do not think any of the investors are under the impression that the system will be profitable within 10-15 years. That's not the main point - it's for JR and Japan as a whole to demonstrate its Shinkansen technology for export markets. That's why they're pushing this so quickly - they want to be done and operational years before California gets its HSR going.

 

The thought is that if this can be done, even if the system is unprofitable at the beginning, Japanese HSR technology and operational processes will become standard in the US. You can already see this at work - major changes in FRA regulatory practices have already taken place as a result of their work with JR in furtherance of the TCR project. If that happens, then Japan's in the driver's seat for design and development of the real honeypot - the DC - Boston HSR line that will likely be on the table in the 2025 - 2030 range.

[Visitor]

On 2/6/2018 at 5:23 AM, Ross said:

Reclaim? That's been UP ROW since before the City expanded that direction. It's also a very busy rail route for freight. UP won't be giving it up anytime soon.

Considering it is well within city limits I would venture to guess they were given exclusive ROW. As someone who lives ON that ROW, there is definitely capacity for transit rail, on a 30 or 15 minute cadence. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Visitor

[102IAHexpress]

11 hours ago, gmac said:

I'm in favor of a good old bloody fight to the death over this useless boondoggle.

 

I wasn't aware a private venture could be a boondoggle. I suppose technically it can. But what do you care? Do you have input on better ways for Texas Central to spend their own money? Is there anyone else's money you want to control too? Personally, If Texas Central wants to spend private money for this rail line, so be it. As long as no public money is used then I don't have a problem with it. If you think this rail line is a boondoggle, then what's your opinion on Elon Musk sending a Tesla into outer space? 

 

Regarding eminent domain, as a libertarian I wouldn't have voted to extend eminent domain to certain private companies. However, libertarian or not, we live in a democracy. The people's representatives have debated it, and have enacted it into law. It's the current law of the State of Texas. 

[j_cuevas713]

20 minutes ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

I wasn't aware a private venture could be a boondoggle. I suppose technically it can. But what do you care? Do you have input on better ways for Texas Central to spend their own money? Is there anyone else's money you want to control too? Personally, If Texas Central wants to spend private money for this rail line, so be it. As long as no public money is used then I don't have a problem with it. If you think this rail line is a boondoggle, then what's your opinion on Elon Musk sending a Tesla into outer space? 

 

Regarding eminent domain, as a libertarian I wouldn't have voted to extend eminent domain to certain private companies. However, libertarian or not, we live in a democracy. The people's representatives have debated it, and have enacted it into law. It's the current law of the State of Texas. 

Hell yeah solid point

[Nate99]

3 hours ago, ADCS said:

 

With respect to funding - I do not think any of the investors are under the impression that the system will be profitable within 10-15 years. That's not the main point - it's for JR and Japan as a whole to demonstrate its Shinkansen technology for export markets. That's why they're pushing this so quickly - they want to be done and operational years before California gets its HSR going.

 

The thought is that if this can be done, even if the system is unprofitable at the beginning, Japanese HSR technology and operational processes will become standard in the US. You can already see this at work - major changes in FRA regulatory practices have already taken place as a result of their work with JR in furtherance of the TCR project. If that happens, then Japan's in the driver's seat for design and development of the real honeypot - the DC - Boston HSR line that will likely be on the table in the 2025 - 2030 range.

 

Getting HSR through the NE corridor would be a challenge that isn't going to have a very good analog to HSR in Texas. The tech wouldn't be the issue. I don't know what kind of timetable would be contemplated here, but HSR Texas as a multi-billion dollar R&D concept for possible positive cash flow of a larger venture (after a much larger cash investment) in 20 years doesn't sound like the kind of deal private money is going to chase. 

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but I would like to see the math. 

[gmac]

3 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said:

 

I wasn't aware a private venture could be a boondoggle. I suppose technically it can. But what do you care? Do you have input on better ways for Texas Central to spend their own money? Is there anyone else's money you want to control too? Personally, If Texas Central wants to spend private money for this rail line, so be it. As long as no public money is used then I don't have a problem with it. If you think this rail line is a boondoggle, then what's your opinion on Elon Musk sending a Tesla into outer space? 

 

Regarding eminent domain, as a libertarian I wouldn't have voted to extend eminent domain to certain private companies. However, libertarian or not, we live in a democracy. The people's representatives have debated it, and have enacted it into law. It's the current law of the State of Texas. 

 

If you think this is going to happen without the eventual infusion of taxpayer dollars, you're deluded.

 

Elon Musk's space ventures aren't trying to invade on private property, AFAIK, so I don't care how he wastes his money.

[mollusk]

4 hours ago, Visitor said:

Considering it is well within city limits I would venture to guess they were given exclusive ROW. As someone who lives ON that ROW, there is definitely capacity for transit rail, on a 30 or 15 minute cadence. 

 

Traditional railroad right of way is owned by the respective railroads in the same way any other property owner owns theirs (TCR is only getting easements).  They don't like to share.

 

Urban rail transit generally runs on such a short frequency and at such a speed between stations that it and freight would be stepping all over each other.   It's also vanishingly unlikely that UP is willing to put up with the disruption that would occur with trying to put dedicated transit lines either above or below its ROW inside the loop, particularly since the generally parallel Katy ROW is now mostly a bike lane - regardless of how practical an idea that might really be.

 

[cspwal]

44 minutes ago, gmac said:

 

If you think this is going to happen without the eventual infusion of taxpayer dollars, you're deluded.

 

Elon Musk's space ventures aren't trying to invade on private property, AFAIK, so I don't care how he wastes his money.

 

What is the sequence of events that lead to public financing of this rail line?

 

I see three possible scenarios for this train:

1. The line becomes successful and makes some already wealthy people richer
2. The line becomes popular (lots of riders) but doesn't break even, leading to the public wanting state funding to avoid it closing
3. The line is a flop - no one rides it, so it closes as a failed business venture.

I think the only bad situation would be #3 if the state subsidized the failed train to keep operating.  But even then, the major costs - building the infrastructure - will have been paid for by the investors of TCR.

[IronTiger]

5 hours ago, cspwal said:

 

What is the sequence of events that lead to public financing of this rail line?

 

I see three possible scenarios for this train:

1. The line becomes successful and makes some already wealthy people richer
2. The line becomes popular (lots of riders) but doesn't break even, leading to the public wanting state funding to avoid it closing
3. The line is a flop - no one rides it, so it closes as a failed business venture.

I think the only bad situation would be #3 if the state subsidized the failed train to keep operating.  But even then, the major costs - building the infrastructure - will have been paid for by the investors of TCR.

Nah two is also bad because it will basically confirm what everyone in the counter-rail group is thinking, that it's just a long-range con to scam taxpayers and not actually deliver a functional, profitable private rail line. Already we've been going from "Hey, this is privately funded and operated, we're not like California here, ha ha" to "Yes, it's privately funded but have you considered eminent domain? It's only a narrow little strip!"

 

6 hours ago, mollusk said:

 

 

Urban rail transit generally runs on such a short frequency and at such a speed between stations that it and freight would be stepping all over each other.   It's also vanishingly unlikely that UP is willing to put up with the disruption that would occur with trying to put dedicated transit lines either above or below its ROW inside the loop, particularly since the generally parallel Katy ROW is now mostly a bike lane - regardless of how practical an idea that might really be.

 

 

No way would anyone living near the Heights Bike Path would allow HSR down it. In addition to having needing far more ROW than the Katy railroad ever had, it had all sorts of twisty turns that would make it impractical to freight and HSR alike.

 

On 2/6/2018 at 10:10 AM, mollusk said:

 

uh, Hobby started being the main Houston airport during the Coolidge administration. 

 

And there were complaints in the 1960s about IAH being so far out in the country. (map from 1962)

 

Whoops, critical research error on my part. For some reason I read Hobby opening in 1969, not IAH. Point still stands though. If this is anywhere close to a major hub as a contingent of this thread believes it to be, downtown is neither necessary or pragmatic.

[cspwal]

My point was that even if the train turned out to need money it would be after construction - and public financing of anything except where the track crosses highways should be highly scrutinized.  The expensive part of any train is building the thing

 

NW mall is way closer to being a hub than either two airports; I did fly out of Hobby recently after flying out of IAH a bunch - I forgot just how easy it is to get to from downtown - I made a round trip in 20 minutes...granted it was 4 am

[IronTiger]

2 hours ago, cspwal said:

My point was that even if the train turned out to need money it would be after construction - and public financing of anything except where the track crosses highways should be highly scrutinized.  The expensive part of any train is building the thing

All railroads cost money to operate and maintain, and very few make a profit. Even the MTA (New York City's transit system) only gains back about 50% what they put in the budget. If the HSR was built and didn't make a profit, the state could sell the line to Union Pacific, who could use it as a super-fast way of getting from Dallas to Houston, and definitely turn a profit off of it.

[mollusk]

The reason I brought up the Katy line was that it would have allowed a relatively easy detour for the UP main line freight traffic if they ever wanted to do a major rework of the line near Washington.  You're right - it's nowhere near adequate for TCR.

 

FWIW, Hobby's further outside the loop than Northwest Mall, and even further from the Galleria area Uptown (**urk**), the BFEnergy Corridor, Westchase, etc.  The big downside to the Northwest Mall site is intuitive street access (said the guy who can walk from work to a downtown station).  

 

Speaking of MKT RR sites of days gone by, the east bank of White Oak Bayou near the Burnett Transit Center isn't built up, and would be relatively easy to get to if one could somehow have the TCR tracks just follow the freeways from Northwest Mall.  The elevated tracks and station would naturally keep it above whatever flood plain you want to specify.  It would also be a good jumping off point for a line to NOLA.  

 

All it would take is a visit from The Money Fairy and we could have cake and pie.

[rechlin]

While I too would prefer a downtown station location, I think there are several points that many of you complaining about the Northwest Mall location aren't understanding, and they are mostly related to Houston being a very decentralized city.

 

First, the population center of Houston is fairly close to the Northwest Mall, so this location puts it about as close to the population center as you can get, minimizing travel distance for the average Houstonian.

 

Second, Houston doesn't have a single "downtown" for business travelers.  While Downtown is technically the biggest business district, Uptown, the TMC, and the Energy Corridor are not far behind, and there are a number of important smaller business districts too.  And this location is definitely better for people going to Uptown and the Energy Corridor, just to name the biggest, and both are locations that are likely to have more business travelers with Dallas than the TMC.

 

Third, a downtown station would increase the total cost of the project by something like 20% (I can't remember the exact number, but it was something along those lines).  If it's not going to increase ridership by that much, it wouldn't make financial sense.

 

Fourth, nothing says they can't build a downtown station later if demand shows it to be worthwhile.

[EllenOlenska]

Man, that theoretical downtown to Northwest plot jaunt everyone is planning is bonkers. 

[samagon]

On 2/8/2018 at 10:31 AM, 102IAHexpress said:

 

 then what's your opinion on Elon Musk sending a Tesla into outer space? 

 

 

Fun facts:

 

1. it wasn't just any tesla roadster that was sent into space, it was his personal tesla roadster.

2. he was speaking at an event I was at a few years back and had brought that very roadster to show off his meaning of persistence, I was allowed to sit in it.

3. some of my dead skin is floating around in outer space.

[ADCS]

19 hours ago, samagon said:

 

3. some of my dead skin is floating around in outer space.

 

We are all made of stardust...

[j_cuevas713]

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/opinion/outlook/article/Cannady-High-speed-rail-station-belongs-in-12737997.php?utm_source=chron&utm_medium=linkmodule&utm_campaign=btfpm

[BeerNut]

Now SNCF America has an opinion on what TCR should do.

 

[EllenOlenska]

I heard Gail Delaughter on the NPR Texas Standard show yesterday and she kept repeating that the train would stop in College Station. I kept thinking, isn't the train actually going to stop in Shiro? 

[cspwal]

It's going to stop near College station and have a bus to A&M iirc

[ADCS]

52 minutes ago, BeerNut said:

Now SNCF America has an opinion on what TCR should do.

 

 

Now that's pretty funny, given that was the Texas TGV concept from 30 years ago. Does the loss of Waco and Temple as potential stops really matter all that much?

[cspwal]

It does if you went to Baylor

[ADCS]

2 minutes ago, cspwal said:

It does if you went to Baylor

 

Given that it's Drayton McLane spearheading the whole thing, I'm sure Baylor interests are mollified.

[samagon]

1 hour ago, BeerNut said:

Now SNCF America has an opinion on what TCR should do.

 

I prefer the triangle. If I want to go to San Antonio from Houston I want to go from Houston to San Antonio, I don't want to go to College Station, then Temple, then Georgetown then Austin, then San Antonio. I'd be better off driving if that were the route.

 

Why does SNCF want to have a say anyway? Do they have a proposal on the table, or are they just poopooing the current plan?

[cspwal]

I suspect that they worry their chances of building their Texas T-bone proposal from 92 is less likely if TCR builds their Dallas-Houston line.

Of course, they have about a 0.5% chance now so...

[BeerNut]

1 hour ago, cspwal said:

I suspect that they worry their chances of building their Texas T-bone proposal from 92 is less likely if TCR builds their Dallas-Houston line.

Of course, they have about a 0.5% chance now so...

Maybe the NIMBYs gave them some money to throw some shade...

[ADCS]

11 minutes ago, BeerNut said:

Maybe the NIMBYs gave them some money to throw some shade...

 

Their spokesperson is from a state lobbying firm. Bet it's just Texans Against High-Speed Rail using their resources to gin up whatever opposition they can find.