Texas Central Project

[j_cuevas713]

I think this is a great location. This is going to encourage a light rail line to Downtown from Uptown. Plus you can extend the build out of Uptown because of the BRT line with more stores, etc. This is exciting! Not a fan of dallas but I'm def a fan of Houston becoming a major hub for many economic reasons. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by j_cuevas713

[gmac]

Name it "Boondoggle, Never Gonna Happen" station.

[mfastx]

1 hour ago, j_cuevas713 said:

I think this is a great location. This is going to encourage a light rail line to Downtown from Uptown. Plus you can extend the build out of Uptown because of the BRT line with more stores, etc. This is exciting! Not a fan of dallas but I'm def a fan of Houston becoming a major hub for many economic reasons. 

 

Strongly disagree, this is a terrible location.  If we can't even get light rail to the Galleria, what makes you think we would get it out here anytime soon?  To be honest it doesn't matter that much, because most people would just drive to the station anyway, but there is definitely a market share of business travelers this won't capture due to the inconvenient location in Houston.  If the station is in a random area of town, there's less of an incentive to take the train over flying.  If you have to rent a car and drive wherever from the station, might as well rent a car and drive wherever from the airport.  It's a shame because this is such a great project, but this is not a desirable area of town.  

[j_cuevas713]

29 minutes ago, mfastx said:

 

Strongly disagree, this is a terrible location.  If we can't even get light rail to the Galleria, what makes you think we would get it out here anytime soon?  To be honest it doesn't matter that much, because most people would just drive to the station anyway, but there is definitely a market share of business travelers this won't capture due to the inconvenient location in Houston.  If the station is in a random area of town, there's less of an incentive to take the train over flying.  If you have to rent a car and drive wherever from the station, might as well rent a car and drive wherever from the airport.  It's a shame because this is such a great project, but this is not a desirable area of town.  

It's called politics, the same engine running the bullet train. Right now there is no incentive to push for it politically. But once this bullet train gets going then the next thing is going to be how can we connect the region to it. Plus you're comment is looking at things very short sighted. Not desirable RIGHT NOW is true. You could have said the same thing about Memorial City 20 years ago. You think the train is just going to exist with no economic impact? It's going to have a massive impact politically and economically on both cities. It's a great location because it's literally a pivot point in the city. Really this train could help Houston finally get the transit system it deserves.

Edited February 5, 2018 by j_cuevas713

[mollusk]

This isn't a particularly "random" area of town.  It's two or three miles from the Galleria area Uptown (**chokes on marketing name**), 5 miles - ish from downtown, and fewer than ten miles from almost all of the BFEnergy Corridor.  That last five miles into downtown would take a LOT of capital, both political and financial (said the guy who was once very dismissive of the NW Mall site).  If the now being converted into yet another use downtown post office site still had a mostly unused SP passenger station on it, and there wasn't an issue of getting the dedicated tracks to it, that might be a different deal.

[kbates2]

I hate the location too.  If we build rail connecting this to downtown, it will likely end up being at-grade light rail again so it will take 90 minutes to get from Dallas to Houston and then another 30 to get downtown.  I don't think it is the end of the world, but the location does suck.

[Ross]

21 minutes ago, kbates2 said:

I hate the location too.  If we build rail connecting this to downtown, it will likely end up being at-grade light rail again so it will take 90 minutes to get from Dallas to Houston and then another 30 to get downtown.  I don't think it is the end of the world, but the location does suck.

Given the potential routings, I suspect that NW Mall to Downtown on the bullet train would be at least 15 minutes, and the cost would be high enough to be uneconomic for the train owners.

[kbates2]

26 minutes ago, Ross said:

Given the potential routings, I suspect that NW Mall to Downtown on the bullet train would be at least 15 minutes, and the cost would be high enough to be uneconomic for the train owners.

 

Completely understand, if it made economic sense for them, they would do it.  Perfect world and all...

[102IAHexpress]

If built, it will be a huge automobile hub; taxi's, uber's, rental cars. The developers are obviously trying to bring as many cars to the station as possible and this location allows for that. The brand will try to convey convenience as much as possible. I can envision television commercials advertising, easy parking and or valet options. Very doubtful someone will shell out extra cash for the convenience and speed of a bullet train to Houston, only to detrain and wait for a Metro bus or light rail train! lol. 

[Visitor]

If the city could reclaim usage of the Union Pacific rail line ~parallel to Washington, you could easily run passenger rail service along that route and throw in 2-3 stops along the way to encourage local transit. (@shepherd, yale, houston st, etc) Connect it to NW mall site (Is literally across the street) and you have 1 of 3 centers covered. 

 

This at-grade light rail intermixed with vehicle traffic is incredibly inefficient.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Visitor

[Ross]

4 hours ago, Visitor said:

If the city could reclaim usage of the Union Pacific rail line ~parallel to Washington, you could easily run passenger rail service along that route and throw in 2-3 stops along the way to encourage local transit. (@shepherd, yale, houston st, etc) Connect it to NW mall site (Is literally across the street) and you have 1 of 3 centers covered. 

 

This at-grade light rail intermixed with vehicle traffic is incredibly inefficient.

Reclaim? That's been UP ROW since before the City expanded that direction. It's also a very busy rail route for freight. UP won't be giving it up anytime soon.

[IronTiger]

LOL to the "why not downtown" arguments. If this is supposed to be an airport alternative, why does it have to be downtown? If HAIF had existed back in the 1960s, would there be just whole pages of complaints about the future Hobby Airport being outside of the Loop?

[kbates2]

56 minutes ago, IronTiger said:

LOL to the "why not downtown" arguments. If this is supposed to be an airport alternative, why does it have to be downtown? If HAIF had existed back in the 1960s, would there be just whole pages of complaints about the future Hobby Airport being outside of the Loop?

 

LOL do trains need runways? 

[Luminare]

1 hour ago, IronTiger said:

LOL to the "why not downtown" arguments. If this is supposed to be an airport alternative, why does it have to be downtown? If HAIF had existed back in the 1960s, would there be just whole pages of complaints about the future Hobby Airport being outside of the Loop?

 

As someone who used trains extensively while in Germany (including their ICE trains (their HSR lines)) trains do not function like airports in the slightest. Airports take you next to a city because there is no real possibility to have a fully effective airport in an urban environment while a train station is a mode of transportation that can take you right up to the front door of an urban environment and further.

 

As for the station location? I can understand why people here will have problems of it. Is it the dream scenario? no (then again to our ideal utopias this project will never match up to our standards). Is it the best possible scenario we could get at this moment? yes. Is it an incredible move politically? yes. Is it pragmatic in the sense that it sets a clear run into the city in the future (which is TCR's long term goal)? yes.

 

These things take time. Again after being in Germany I was able to admire the extensive network that they have, but it also took ages to develop. Lets cut these guys some slack. They are doing the best they can do. Lets also be grateful that we have a current mayor who is making this a priority. Lets be grateful that the city is genuinely moving inward when all historical indicators of success in Houston says it should just continuously expand outward. Rather than throwing tomatoes at all this for not being our perfect utopian visions lets give it the support it needs so it can morph into something even better in the future.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Luminare

[ADCS]

They also got to piggyback off the existing networks, too, since Deutsche Bahn owns all the tracks. That would never happen here, though, because the motivation for building new rails  in the United States has always been primarily about land speculation and development, not simply moving people as in the already densely-populated Western and Central Europe. Heck, the station in Roans Prairie is a gleaming sign that this tradition has not faded in the least bit.

 

High quality train stations function more like better shopping malls than airports. They are commercial centers with a transit element. The NW Mall location is primed for redevelopment, and the TCR Station will be the anchor of what we will soon call the "Upper Post Oak District" or something similar. Prepare to see the low density warehouses on Post Oak replaced with apartments, townhouses and high-end retail, similar to what's going on north of Afton Oaks. Somerset Green is just the beginning.

[mollusk]

2 hours ago, IronTiger said:

LOL to the "why not downtown" arguments. If this is supposed to be an airport alternative, why does it have to be downtown? If HAIF had existed back in the 1960s, would there be just whole pages of complaints about the future Hobby Airport being outside of the Loop?

 

uh, Hobby started being the main Houston airport during the Coolidge administration. 

 

And there were complaints in the 1960s about IAH being so far out in the country. (map from 1962)

 

(dang kids... they need to get off my lawn...)

[Luminare]

3 minutes ago, mollusk said:

 

uh, Hobby started being the main Houston airport during the Coolidge administration. 

 

And there were complaints in the 1960s about IAH being so far out in the country. (map from 1962)

 

(dang kids... they need to get off my lawn...)

 

Thats an awesome map! Love looking at stuff like this. Plus for using it as empirical evidence.

[mfastx]

20 hours ago, j_cuevas713 said:

It's called politics, the same engine running the bullet train. Right now there is no incentive to push for it politically. But once this bullet train gets going then the next thing is going to be how can we connect the region to it. Plus you're comment is looking at things very short sighted. Not desirable RIGHT NOW is true. You could have said the same thing about Memorial City 20 years ago. You think the train is just going to exist with no economic impact? It's going to have a massive impact politically and economically on both cities. It's a great location because it's literally a pivot point in the city. Really this train could help Houston finally get the transit system it deserves.

 

Understood and agree with most of what you said.  It's just a minor annoyance and I understand that the incremental cost associated with taking it downtown would likely be greater than the incremental return.  Real estate is likely a large component of funding this project, and there's more "opportunity" at the NW mall site than in downtown.  I really get all that.  My only concern is that unless the train station is significantly closer to a large employment center than Hobby, many people will still opt to fly.  If you have to schlep your way though 610/I-10 traffic to reach your final destination after you get off the train, what's the advantage to that over doing the same thing from Hobby?  For Westerners it's better geographically, but the ideal location obviously would be a station in Downtown.  Not only can you have the same garages with parking, rental cars and other ground transportation, but you also have the option of taking light rail or simply walking to your final destination, as there is much more within walking distance in downtown than anywhere else.  You don't capture that market share if your station is outside of the city.  I still support the project of course, I just felt compelled to point out the obvious shortcomings of the Houston station location (Dallas' is much better). 

 

17 hours ago, Ross said:

Given the potential routings, I suspect that NW Mall to Downtown on the bullet train would be at least 15 minutes, and the cost would be high enough to be uneconomic for the train owners.

 

It'd probably be more like 5 minutes.  Acela takes only about 10-15 minutes to get from Rte 128 station to Back Bay in the Boston area, a distance far greater than NW Mall to Uptown.  And this would be faster.  

 

2 hours ago, IronTiger said:

LOL to the "why not downtown" arguments. If this is supposed to be an airport alternative, why does it have to be downtown? If HAIF had existed back in the 1960s, would there be just whole pages of complaints about the future Hobby Airport being outside of the Loop?

 

It's supposed to be better than just an airport alternative.  It has to be if this project is going to be successful.  

Edited February 6, 2018 by mfastx

[Sparrow]

On ‎2‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 11:21 AM, cspwal said:

Breaking train news!

http://www.khou.com/news/local/officials-northwest-mall-preferred-location-for-houston-bullet-train-station/514889177

 

https://www.texascentral.com/2018/02/05/houston-bullet-train-station-location-announced/

 

For all of the why-not-downtown folks, I'd offer encouragement in that slight angle the track takes into the NW Mall station. Extrapolate that out and guess where you end up--north Downtown. If the HSR is met with a high degree of success, perhaps TCP is already setting up the possibility of extending to a second Houston station located Downtown. 

 

(You might also want to buy one of Mr. Musk's Boring hats to help the cause).

[ADCS]

I think it's not to outlandish to think that once political support is on board, the tracks will continue through to the Katy Freeway, run down the middle of the (newly reconstructed) freeway and into the Theater District to a new terminus connecting with Amtrak. It'll just take time and cooperation with TxDOT on the inner loop Katy reconstruction to make it feasible.

[cspwal]

I mean part of the grand plan on Texas Central's part must include Galveston and New Orleans - they probably have a napkin with a complicated network scribbled out, reproduced here:

 

[102IAHexpress]

12 hours ago, Luminare said:

 

As someone who used trains extensively while in Germany (including their ICE trains (their HSR lines)) trains do not function like airports in the slightest. Airports take you next to a city because there is no real possibility to have a fully effective airport in an urban environment while a train station is a mode of transportation that can take you right up to the front door of an urban environment and further.

 

This is mostly false. There are over 5K public airports in the US. Not all of them are huge airports that require them to be far away from a city center. And actually some large airports are very close to the city center, like Las Vegas airport.

 

Many small European town train stations function like small regional airports. Both get you pretty darn close to the town's center but not right in the center.

 

What we have in the NW Mall "station" is similar to a small regional airport/small train town. It has just one airline/train line that flies/travels to one other station/airport several times per day fairly close to the town center, but not as close as a huge capital city train station. 

 

I think you would be more correct if you said, -Large- airports do not function like -Large- train stations. Also, small train stations are sometimes in the town's center and sometimes are NOT in a town's center. 

[ADCS]

20 hours ago, cspwal said:

I mean part of the grand plan on Texas Central's part must include Galveston and New Orleans - they probably have a napkin with a complicated network scribbled out, reproduced here:

 

Get rid of the direct line between Dallas and Austin, stretch the main route east of CS, and then have a spur that goes Roans Prairie/CS/Austin/SA, and I think you have the basic setup of the long-term network.

 

 

CS in 30 min, Austin in 55, San Antonio in 90.

[cspwal]

Ooooh I like that one better.  I always forget how close CS is to Austin.  This would also make the pretty large station they're showing make more sense - if it is going to serve all those routes, of course it will need to be similar in size to the termini.

[mfastx]

I'm not sure it makes much sense to not have a line that hits San Antonio, San Marcos, Austin, Round Rock, Temple, Waco and Ft. Worth.  Lots of ridership potential there all in a straight line. 

[cspwal]

I think the idea behind the T-bone design is to double the connected cities with a shorter amount of track than the first line

[gmac]

Even better, the train will eventually be powered by unicorn wings.

 

This project will not happen for many years, if ever.

[cspwal]

It's a private venture.  Do we know what status their funding is at?  If they think they can make a billion dollars doing this, it will happen

[gmac]

No way on earth they should be granted any eminent domain relief for a private venture. As long as the landowners in the countryside between here and Dallas don't want this, it won't and shouldn't happen.

[EllenOlenska]

Eschewing "should", private companies have and will use eminent domain, so this project could and might happen. 

Also, I like trains.