Texas Central Project

[BigFootsSocks]

I'm a Dallasite and I can't believe you guys are screwing this up. All this work that we're doing on our end to make the HSR practical and modern and then on your end we're gonna plop the passengers in some parking lot in the middle of nowhere.

So incredibly stupid and shortsighted...

Is there a Dallas sub I can go into and yell at its users about how I know what's better for the city than they do?

[august948]

I'm a Dallasite and I can't believe you guys are screwing this up. All this work that we're doing on our end to make the HSR practical and modern and then on your end we're gonna plop the passengers in some parking lot in the middle of nowhere.

 

So incredibly stupid and shortsighted...

 

Or it's more or less a blank slate that we can re-develop for many blocks around.  It won't be a parking lot for long.  To bad Dallas won't have as many new development opportunities.  You guys really missed the boat on this one.

 

[BigFootsSocks]

I wasn't gonna be the one to turn it around on him, but both points hold the same merit. His take was just hotter.

[august948]

For me, the idea of having the Houston terminus at NW Mall is a major fail.  Is that defunct mall or the area in general a major destination?  I agree that downtown Houston  is not going to be the principal destination for every single person traveling here from Dallas, but it still is central and is still the closest thing we have to a central core.  

 

OK, here's some out-of-the-box thinking.  Maybe we can have a multi-billion-dollar HSR line linking Dallas' Red Bird Mall to NW Mall in Houston.  I would not invest my money in such a scheme, but if some people would be so foolish, go ahead. 

 

I live closer to NW Mall than to downtown Houston, but ... seriously.  I think it would be better to cancel the project entirely than to do something dumb like that.  

 

Better to cancel the whole project than to have a station at the NW mall site?  Seriously? 

 

Sounds like an argument the anti-HSR folks would make.

 

[august948]

I wasn't gonna be the one to turn it around on him, but both points hold the same merit. His take was just hotter.

 

Well, it was an egregious example of straight-line thinking.  The NW mall site has always been derelict, is now derelict, and therefore will always be derelict.

 

How about this site becoming the northern anchor of the Uptown district with light rail connections, commuter rail connections, three freeways, and office, residential, and shopping all the way down to the Galleria?  Does that really take a lot of vision to see?

 

[LarryDierker]

The Dallas guy is kinda right.  for the business travelers that will be the bulk of riders and who's employer will pay for rentals and transportation it's not a big deal. but for the average citizen of Dallas that may want to visit Houston for sporting events, conventions, concerts, museums, performing arts, TMC, The Zoo, college, The Rodeo, or just about any recreational activity the NW Mall location is really lame. No matter what they build there. Which will probably be a couple of crappy hotels, a couple of rental car places, a starbucks, a chick-fil-a, and a Pappasito's.

[august948]

The Dallas guy is kinda right.  for the business travelers that will be the bulk of riders and who's employer will pay for rentals and transportation it's not a big deal. but for the average citizen of Dallas that may want to visit Houston for sporting events, conventions, concerts, museums, performing arts, TMC, The Zoo, college, The Rodeo, or just about any recreational activity the NW Mall location is really lame. No matter what they build there. Which will probably be a couple of crappy hotels, a couple of rental car places, a starbucks, a chick-fil-a, and a Pappasito's.

 

Wouldn't those travelers currently be flying into Hobby or IAH and renting a car to go wherever?  I'd bet the bulk of the casual travellers flying in from Dallas are probably here to see family, and incidentally go to some of our attractions.

 

As for the Rodeo and some other events, they typically run shuttles from Delmar Stadium (across the street from NW Mall) or the NW Mall parking lots.  That's got to be pretty convenient.

 

[Montrose1100]

The Dallas guy is kinda right.  for the business travelers that will be the bulk of riders and who's employer will pay for rentals and transportation it's not a big deal. but for the average citizen of Dallas that may want to visit Houston for sporting events, conventions, concerts, museums, performing arts, TMC, The Zoo, college, The Rodeo, or just about any recreational activity the NW Mall location is really lame. No matter what they build there. Which will probably be a couple of crappy hotels, a couple of rental car places, a starbucks, a chick-fil-a, and a Pappasito's.

Lame is relative Larry. For instance, you included the Zoo, Rodeo, and sporting events as something not lame. 

 

 

 

The good thing about the NW Mall location is they can easily hop onto I-10 to avoid the west loop, and it's right on the edge of where the Houston city limits should be without the aggressive annexation. It's much closer to all the business districts than both Airports. I know it blows that we don't get a great terminal with all other transportation options Downtown, but I guess at least it's not stopping on the beltway or grand parkway? 

[mfastx]

I feel like the problem that most people have with the NW mall site is not necessarily that it isn't in downtown, but that it isn't anywhere really.  It's in a very undesirable area.  Who likes that area? 

 

Edit: to clarify, if the station was in uptown or something people wouldn't whine about it not being downtown.. because at least the station is in a destination area.  

 

No one is taking HSR to Houston to get to NW mall.  

 

At least some people's final destination would have been downtown, or uptown, or wherever.  Literally 0% of people taking HSR are wanting to get to NW mall. 

Edited November 16, 2015 by mfastx

[IronTiger]

I feel like the problem that most people have with the NW mall site is not necessarily that it isn't in downtown, but that it isn't anywhere really.  It's in a very undesirable area.  Who likes that area? 

 

Edit: to clarify, if the station was in uptown or something people wouldn't whine about it not being downtown.. because at least the station is in a destination area.  

 

No one is taking HSR to Houston to get to NW mall.  

 

At least some people's final destination would have been downtown, or uptown, or wherever.  Literally 0% of people taking HSR are wanting to get to NW mall. 

 

Why are we all getting hung up on this? The Northwest Mall site is not the mall itself. Almost certainly the mall will be flattened in the process or at least highly renovated. The old Foley's building will probably get demolished either way, and could provide an impetus to revive that part of town. Besides, even if it wasn't completely demolished, a renovated transit-oriented mall could provide a decent terminal, with places to eat, wait, or buy sundries at. That's what happens at all these actual transit/train stations in reality you guys claim to lionize.

 

And now you've got some Dallasite deliberately trying to troll you guys by taunting you that it's not downtown, and you're taking the bait.

[cspwal]

Yeah the NW mall is just the piece of land.  Once they buy it, they'll demolish it, and build their terminal and depot.  Parking garages, rental car lots, and most likely a new bus transit center (if Metro helps out) will be built, and it will completely change the fabric of that area.  

 

What we really need though is to ensure that a light rail & BRT station is also a part of this development, and I think we need to figure out a way to push Metro hard to get this done.  With out pressure, I could see them just building a bus shelter and sending a couple of local metro buses there like they do with Hobby

 

[Ross]

I feel like the problem that most people have with the NW mall site is not necessarily that it isn't in downtown, but that it isn't anywhere really. It's in a very undesirable area. Who likes that area?

Edit: to clarify, if the station was in uptown or something people wouldn't whine about it not being downtown.. because at least the station is in a destination area.

No one is taking HSR to Houston to get to NW mall.

At least some people's final destination would have been downtown, or uptown, or wherever. Literally 0% of people taking HSR are wanting to get to NW mall.

There could be thousands of Dallasites just waiting to go the antiques mall at NW Mall

[samagon]

It's not renting a car to go downtown, because you're still stuck on the idea that all destinations ARE downtown. It could be downtown...or the Energy Corridor...or Galveston...or Uptown...or University of Houston. The possibilities are limitless. I mean, I suppose you could take advantage of mass transit, but that only goes so far (and takes a while).

If the answer to that is "why not just drive down I-45", then it's time to take a long look at if HSR is a winning prospect.

 

Downtown is the center of a hub and spoke freeway system that provides quick and easy access to all other areas of Houston.

Downtown has the convention center, so Houston conventions are more accessible to Dallas.

Downtown has the theater district, so Houston shows are more accessible to Dallas.

 

If Houston ever gets a commuter rail it will most likely travel on existing corridors, so downtown Houston will be the central location for those spokes as well.

 

Downtown really is the best option.

Edited November 16, 2015 by samagon

[gmac]

I love the idea of the NW Mall as the terminal site. It moves us one more step away from the idea that "downtown" is the most important part of the city of Houston. It is close to the Galleria, and just a 610 ride away from stadiums and other attractions.

[Visitor]

Yeah the NW mall is just the piece of land.  Once they buy it, they'll demolish it, and build their terminal and depot.  Parking garages, rental car lots, and most likely a new bus transit center (if Metro helps out) will be built, and it will completely change the fabric of that area.  

 

What we really need though is to ensure that a light rail & BRT station is also a part of this development, and I think we need to figure out a way to push Metro hard to get this done.  With out pressure, I could see them just building a bus shelter and sending a couple of local metro buses there like they do with Hobby

 

Based on a meeting i was privy to where Christof Spieler presented and took questions, Metro does not have any real intentions of expanding Light Rail or rail of any sort.  They are (imo overly) proud of their bus system and any discussions related to future rail were essentially shot down with both cost and the "effectiveness" of the bus system being the main reasons. 

 

With that said, it's important if you want more rail in Houston, that you vote December 12th in the Mayoral run-off. As you know the Mayor is in charge of appointing members on the DOT Board and their vision of the city's transportation future plays a large role in what we eventually see come to fruition.

 

The Houston HSR Watch did a questionnaire to all candidates and those responses can be found here:

 

http://houstonhsrwatch.org/latest_information.html

 

It is important to note that the run off is between Turner and King. Turner also penned a letter to the Houston HSR Watch which can be found on the same page under "Early 2015"

 

Before all of the NIMBY comments come rolling in, the Houston HSR Watch is supportive of improved connectivity for Houston which includes light and commuter rail.  They are not against HSR, save for the infrastructure and disruption that would have been necessary to bring it downtown.  

[F4shionablecha0s]

And now you've got some Dallasite deliberately trying to troll you guys by taunting you that it's not downtown, and you're taking the bait.

I don't think it's trolling if it's a clearly idiotic decision that directly impacts all of us up here.

 

For us, the vision for the HSR was like this:

DART to Union Station, Union Station to downtown Houston. For a lot of people, downtown or the adjacent area (Midtown) would be the final destination. If not, downtown Houston is the hub of your whole road/rail/bus network.

 

Now you've turned it into this:

DART to Union Station, Union Station to a dead mall's parking lot out by 610... which is NO ONE's final destination. From there maybe light rail will be built at some point... but let's be honest that won't happen for a while. Maybe you can take a bus, but come on no one's going to do that. So then you'll have to either rent a car, beg a friend for a ride, or call an Uber.

 

It's just removed so much of the utility...

[JJxvi]

The idea that travelers would be able to step out of the train terminal and be at their final destination is a fantasy even for downtown.  The business traveler  will be headed to an office or hotel downtown/uptown/greenway/along I-10 between Bunker Hill and Katy.  NW Mall/Transit center area is actually an ideal site, and much better located than Hobby Airport (which is the current Dallas to Houston exit point).  It's also a site that IS on the plans for future LRT both east to Downtown and south to Uptown.

[august948]

I don't think it's trolling if it's a clearly idiotic decision that directly impacts all of us up here.

 

For us, the vision for the HSR was like this:

DART to Union Station, Union Station to downtown Houston. For a lot of people, downtown or the adjacent area (Midtown) would be the final destination. If not, downtown Houston is the hub of your whole road/rail/bus network.

 

Now you've turned it into this:

DART to Union Station, Union Station to a dead mall's parking lot out by 610... which is NO ONE's final destination. From there maybe light rail will be built at some point... but let's be honest that won't happen for a while. Maybe you can take a bus, but come on no one's going to do that. So then you'll have to either rent a car, beg a friend for a ride, or call an Uber.

 

It's just removed so much of the utility...

 

You do know that TCR wanted to go downtown but the Fed's nixed it, right?

 

[Montrose1100]

I don't think it's trolling if it's a clearly idiotic decision that directly impacts all of us up here.

 

For us, the vision for the HSR was like this:

DART to Union Station, Union Station to downtown Houston. For a lot of people, downtown or the adjacent area (Midtown) would be the final destination. If not, downtown Houston is the hub of your whole road/rail/bus network.

 

Now you've turned it into this:

DART to Union Station, Union Station to a dead mall's parking lot out by 610... which is NO ONE's final destination. From there maybe light rail will be built at some point... but let's be honest that won't happen for a while. Maybe you can take a bus, but come on no one's going to do that. So then you'll have to either rent a car, beg a friend for a ride, or call an Uber.

 

It's just removed so much of the utility...

Exactly what has the city of Houston or it's voters (which BTW, this is NOT UP FOR A VOTE), done to remove the Downtown Station? This is all Texas Central shaving off costs, and the bottom line. If the ridership doesn't meet the building criteria for a few extra miles to Downtown then so be it. 

 

What do you think workers who get off in Downtown Dallas will have to do if their business meeting or hotel is not in Downtown or on the light rail lines? Take a taxi or an Uber.

[Houston19514]

I don't think it's trolling if it's a clearly idiotic decision that directly impacts all of us up here.

 

For us, the vision for the HSR was like this:

DART to Union Station, Union Station to downtown Houston. For a lot of people, downtown or the adjacent area (Midtown) would be the final destination. If not, downtown Houston is the hub of your whole road/rail/bus network.

 

Now you've turned it into this:

DART to Union Station, Union Station to a dead mall's parking lot out by 610... which is NO ONE's final destination. From there maybe light rail will be built at some point... but let's be honest that won't happen for a while. Maybe you can take a bus, but come on no one's going to do that. So then you'll have to either rent a car, beg a friend for a ride, or call an Uber.

 

It's just removed so much of the utility...

 

"We" didn't turn it into anything.  "We" had nothing to do with it.  Just as "you" had nothing to do with their selection of a near-downtown Dallas site.  This decision was made by the private entity that will be paying for and operating the rail line and that, incidentally, gathered the facts regarding the costs and benefits of various station locations.

 

Take your trolling somewhere else.

[Houston19514]

The idea that travelers would be able to step out of the train terminal and be at their final destination is a fantasy even for downtown.  The business traveler  will be headed to an office or hotel downtown/uptown/greenway/along I-10 between Bunker Hill and Katy.  NW Mall/Transit center area is actually an ideal site, and much better located than Hobby Airport (which is the current Dallas to Houston exit point).  It's also a site that IS on the plans for future LRT both east to Downtown and south to Uptown.

 

It's also worth pointing out that it is even more of a fantasy that travelers to D-FW will be able to step out of the near-downtown Dallas train terminal and be at their final destination.   An even smaller portion of  DFW business is in their downtown than is the case for Houston.  The business traveler to D-FW will be headed to an office or hotel downtown/uptown, LBJ, Plano, Frisco, Richardson, mid-cities, Ft Worth, etc., etc., etc.  The near-downtown Dallas site is very far removed from the economic or population center of the metropolitan area and will be walkable to almost nothing.  Putting  the station there just removes so much of the utility.  ;-)

 

[ADCS]

Before all of the NIMBY comments come rolling in, the Houston HSR Watch is supportive of improved connectivity for Houston which includes light and commuter rail.  They are not against HSR, save for the infrastructure and disruption that would have been necessary to bring it downtown.  

 

That's the very definition of "not in my backyard".

 

I wish NIMBYs were more self-aware.

[Slick Vik]

Nobody from Dallas is going to use this. Ever.

Wrong

[BigFootsSocks]

Nobody from Dallas is going to use this. Ever.

[Visitor]

That's the very definition of "not in my backyard".

I wish NIMBYs were more self-aware.

Relative to the HSR? Absolutely.

But there is a general perception that the NIMBY mentality is directed at all things related to rail when its not the case.

I dont oppose HSR overall, though I don't believe it will successful as an alternative travel mode.

[ADCS]

Relative to the HSR? Absolutely.

But there is a general perception that the NIMBY mentality is directed at all things related to rail when its not the case.

I dont oppose HSR overall, though I don't believe it will successful as an alternative travel mode.

 

See, this is the sort of circular reasoning that NIMBYs use to justify what is primarily an irrational emotional response. Yes, it's agreed that the project is needed, but not anywhere near me - that's not a logical argument, that's emotional territoriality. It's based on an unjustified belief in the ownership of one's proximity, as opposed to the plat of land that one has title to.

 

You see this all the time in infrastructure projects - usually landowners do not mind giving up rights of way or easements - that's either a lucrative one-time transaction, or a steady source of income over the years. Their neighbors, on the other hand, are usually the biggest opponents, and the opposition is couched in terms of territoriality.

 

If there's a perception that the NIMBY mentality is directed at all things rail, that's probably because they're usually more successful there. There are too many strong countervailing interests in Houston to block a major road project (for example, the Grand Parkway F-2).

[Montrose1100]

Why would anyone from Dallas pay good money to take a HSP to NorthWest Mall? If I have to rent a car to get around and sit in traffic anyway, I might as well fly.

Then fly. You clearly don't understand the purpose of the train. If you think anyone taking the train to Dallas is only going because the station is close to Downtown or wouldn't take an uber/taxi/limo/driver... you are mistaken my friend.

[cspwal]

Also, the train should be much faster than driving and might be faster than flying (that will depend on how fast you can realistically get from entering the station to the train leaving)

[august948]

Why would anyone from Dallas pay good money to take a HSP to NorthWest Mall? If I have to rent a car to get around and sit in traffic anyway, I might as well fly.

 

Eureka!  That's the solution to our transport problems.  Forget trains and cars, just fly!

 

 

[BigFootsSocks]

TCR is gonna have to make an announcement soon about the station; if it's going to be at Northwest mall then they need to reassure everyone that the mall will be torn down.

Somehow, that's not obvious to everyone, but I understand the criticism.