Texas Central Project

[BigFootsSocks]

It's a bit more complicated than that

[cspwal]

So, running a train to downtown creates more "significant environmental impacts" than running all the individual passenger cars to the NW mall?

That makes a ton of sense. Right? Right? Yah, right. Some body need to tell Amtrak and metro that.

 

Making a brand new grade separated train line would have a significant environmental impact.  The HSR can't follow current freight tracks (though it can use the ROW if wide enough) so they have to build a new tracks to get into downtown.  Meanwhile, Amtrak just shares the current freight line into downtown.

 

For Metro's side, they could still make sense, as they would have more stations along the way so there is more upside on a light rail/mass transit going through that corridor because it would stop and help mobility in that area.  The HSR would just glide through and have to be measured on its benefit at large.

 

That being said, I don't see them approving an elevated light rail track through here - the same neighbors would complain that complained about the HSR.  So if a route is going to go through here, it'll have to be at grade since no one wants to tunnel in Houston

[bedmondson]

So 90 minutes from Dallas to Houston, then another 90 minutes via bus/rented car to downtown? Haha. 

[IronTiger]

I wonder why they do seem to be terminating at Northwest Mall instead of going downtown.

 

Could it be just access problems, which is one reason I argued NW Mall instead of downtown in the past?

 

Could it be them unable to procure the land in downtown needed at a reasonable cost?

 

Or could it be the resistance in the Washington Avenue corridor, which (I imagine) would have more political sway than some disgruntled rural landowners?

[Sparrow]

I wonder why they do seem to be terminating at Northwest Mall instead of going downtown.

 

Could it be just access problems, which is one reason I argued NW Mall instead of downtown in the past?

 

Could it be them unable to procure the land in downtown needed at a reasonable cost?

 

Or could it be the resistance in the Washington Avenue corridor, which (I imagine) would have more political sway than some disgruntled rural landowners?

 

IT, check out TCP's website for links to the Step 2 analysis as well as the Last Mile analysis. All of their rationale and analysis is in the reports as well as the remaining 6 specific alignments between here and Dallas. In a nut shell, no DT station at this point due to environmental concerns (parks and historic places) and cost/benefit ratios.

 

 

As an aside, anyone know what the "Houston and Texas Central Railway archeological site" is?

[BigFootsSocks]

The reports that have been released say that the cost of extending the line from the Northwest station into Downtown outweigh the expected profit and ridership values that would benefit from a Downtown station. This may/will change as soon as Downtown becomes a hot spot destination, and the NIMBY's along Washington don't have enough political sway to "derail" a Downtown extension.

[cspwal]

Apparently TCR thought, and the Feds agreed, that the benefits of going downtown outweigh the environmental impacts to the neighborhoods and the cost of building it out.

 

I was thinking about how you could tie in this station into the light rail network, mainly to get people downtown, and I came up with 3 routes

 

West Segment by Christopher Hisle, on Flickr

 

East Segment by Christopher Hisle, on Flickr

 

Here is the three lines in an interactive map:

https://www.scribblemaps.com/create/#id=RrCrffSkaG&lat=29.777217766091777&lng=-95.39527148008347&z=14&t=hybrid

(I couldn't figure out how to embded it)

 

Purple is an extension of the purple line going west from downtown, following Houston Avenue to Washington Avenue, and then following Washington Avenue all the way to Hempsted Road, where it goes to NW Mall.

This line I think would be both the most useful and would face the most intense opposition as well as the hardest to construct.  It only requires one new overpass (right where Hempsted and Washington Ave intersect) and would connect to existing businesses and dense residential along it's entire corridor.  Downsides are of course that Washington Ave currently doesn't have a median, so this would hamper left turns into businesses, as well as require some ROW to maintain 4 lanes of traffic plus left turning pockets.

 

Washington Corridor Stats:

6.31 Miles long, most at grade

1 new overpass required

8 intermediary stations

28 minute estimated trip time

 

 

The next is pink.  This terminates at Burnett transit center and mainly follows the Heights Hike and Bike Trail.  It would be easier to build without disrupting traffic, but it would ruin the natural feeling of most of the trail.  After the trail terminates, it follows Shepherd north to 11th street, which it follows to Hempsted Road.

There is one spot where a new overpass might be needed to be built, a old train track crossing 11th street just east of Hempsted Road.  It might be better to just leave it as a level crossing depending on the train traffic through it.

Except for Shepherd and Sawyer Heights, this line would mainly run through residential areas.

 

Heights Corridor Stats:

6.77 miles long, most at grade

1 possible overpass required

6 intermediary stops

25 minute estimated trip time

 

 

The final idea is in light blue, following I-10.  I imagined an extended HOV lane (possibly this would also be BRT) that entered at its current location and went to NW mall, though exiting at Washington and following Hempstead road to get there more directly.  This route would have the least impact on businesses during construction, but I wasn't sure how to tie it in to the Red line, and it would have to be a 7 mile long completely elevated structure.  Also, this would only be an express line to TCR and nothing else.

 

I-10 Corridor Stats:

7.2 miles long, almost entirely elevated

2 intermediary stops

10 minute estimated trip time

 

 

 

[august948]

So 90 minutes from Dallas to Houston, then another 90 minutes via bus/rented car to downtown? Haha. 

 

NW Transit center to the Central Station on the red line is all of 16 minutes at 8am.  The only solution needed here is run a shuttle back and forth or, gasp, just have some P&R buses stop at the train station.  Problem solved.

 

[august948]

I wonder why they do seem to be terminating at Northwest Mall instead of going downtown.

 

Could it be just access problems, which is one reason I argued NW Mall instead of downtown in the past?

 

Could it be them unable to procure the land in downtown needed at a reasonable cost?

 

Or could it be the resistance in the Washington Avenue corridor, which (I imagine) would have more political sway than some disgruntled rural landowners?

 

Yes, yes & yes.

 

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/transportation/article/Planned-high-speed-rail-line-won-t-come-downtown-6627877.php?cmpid=btfpm

 

[Visitor]

Apparently TCR thought, and the Feds agreed, that the benefits of going downtown outweigh the environmental impacts to the neighborhoods and the cost of building it out.

I was thinking about how you could tie in this station into the light rail network, mainly to get people downtown, and I came up with 3 routes

West Segment by Christopher Hisle, on Flickr

East Segment by Christopher Hisle, on Flickr

Here is the three lines in an interactive map:

https://www.scribblemaps.com/create/#id=RrCrffSkaG&lat=29.777217766091777&lng=-95.39527148008347&z=14&t=hybrid

(I couldn't figure out how to embded it)

Purple is an extension of the purple line going west from downtown, following Houston Avenue to Washington Avenue, and then following Washington Avenue all the way to Hempsted Road, where it goes to NW Mall.

This line I think would be both the most useful and would face the most intense opposition as well as the hardest to construct. It only requires one new overpass (right where Hempsted and Washington Ave intersect) and would connect to existing businesses and dense residential along it's entire corridor. Downsides are of course that Washington Ave currently doesn't have a median, so this would hamper left turns into businesses, as well as require some ROW to maintain 4 lanes of traffic plus left turning pockets.

Washington Corridor Stats:

6.31 Miles long, most at grade

1 new overpass required

8 intermediary stations

28 minute estimated trip time

The next is pink. This terminates at Burnett transit center and mainly follows the Heights Hike and Bike Trail. It would be easier to build without disrupting traffic, but it would ruin the natural feeling of most of the trail. After the trail terminates, it follows Shepherd north to 11th street, which it follows to Hempsted Road.

There is one spot where a new overpass might be needed to be built, a old train track crossing 11th street just east of Hempsted Road. It might be better to just leave it as a level crossing depending on the train traffic through it.

Except for Shepherd and Sawyer Heights, this line would mainly run through residential areas.

Heights Corridor Stats:

6.77 miles long, most at grade

1 possible overpass required

6 intermediary stops

25 minute estimated trip time

The final idea is in light blue, following I-10. I imagined an extended HOV lane (possibly this would also be BRT) that entered at its current location and went to NW mall, though exiting at Washington and following Hempstead road to get there more directly. This route would have the least impact on businesses during construction, but I wasn't sure how to tie it in to the Red line, and it would have to be a 7 mile long completely elevated structure. Also, this would only be an express line to TCR and nothing else.

I-10 Corridor Stats:

7.2 miles long, almost entirely elevated

2 intermediary stops

10 minute estimated trip time

This NIMBY likes these ideas...

Far more value to the community than HSR running through.

[JLWM8609]

Apparently TCR thought, and the Feds agreed, that the benefits of going downtown outweigh the environmental impacts to the neighborhoods and the cost of building it out.

 

I was thinking about how you could tie in this station into the light rail network, mainly to get people downtown, and I came up with 3 routes

 

West Segment by Christopher Hisle, on Flickr

 

East Segment by Christopher Hisle, on Flickr

 

Here is the three lines in an interactive map:

https://www.scribblemaps.com/create/#id=RrCrffSkaG&lat=29.777217766091777&lng=-95.39527148008347&z=14&t=hybrid

(I couldn't figure out how to embded it)

 

Purple is an extension of the purple line going west from downtown, following Houston Avenue to Washington Avenue, and then following Washington Avenue all the way to Hempsted Road, where it goes to NW Mall.

This line I think would be both the most useful and would face the most intense opposition as well as the hardest to construct.  It only requires one new overpass (right where Hempsted and Washington Ave intersect) and would connect to existing businesses and dense residential along it's entire corridor.  Downsides are of course that Washington Ave currently doesn't have a median, so this would hamper left turns into businesses, as well as require some ROW to maintain 4 lanes of traffic plus left turning pockets.

 

Washington Corridor Stats:

6.31 Miles long, most at grade

1 new overpass required

8 intermediary stations

28 minute estimated trip time

 

 

The next is pink.  This terminates at Burnett transit center and mainly follows the Heights Hike and Bike Trail.  It would be easier to build without disrupting traffic, but it would ruin the natural feeling of most of the trail.  After the trail terminates, it follows Shepherd north to 11th street, which it follows to Hempsted Road.

There is one spot where a new overpass might be needed to be built, a old train track crossing 11th street just east of Hempsted Road.  It might be better to just leave it as a level crossing depending on the train traffic through it.

Except for Shepherd and Sawyer Heights, this line would mainly run through residential areas.

 

Heights Corridor Stats:

6.77 miles long, most at grade

1 possible overpass required

6 intermediary stops

25 minute estimated trip time

 

 

The final idea is in light blue, following I-10.  I imagined an extended HOV lane (possibly this would also be BRT) that entered at its current location and went to NW mall, though exiting at Washington and following Hempstead road to get there more directly.  This route would have the least impact on businesses during construction, but I wasn't sure how to tie it in to the Red line, and it would have to be a 7 mile long completely elevated structure.  Also, this would only be an express line to TCR and nothing else.

 

I-10 Corridor Stats:

7.2 miles long, almost entirely elevated

2 intermediary stops

10 minute estimated trip time

 

I like the Heights Corridor routing. I could see it constructed as a partial express line to TCR if it followed the Heights Hike and Bike trail underneath Shepherd and Durham, through the Eureka yard to Hempstead Rd. It would appease any NIMBYs who may not want light rail going down W 11th and may allow for the train to attain higher speeds on those stretches where its grade separated going underneath those roads. Though I don't know if going 66 mph next to a Hike and Bike trail is a good idea.

 

[IronTiger]

I like the Heights Corridor routing. I could see it constructed as a partial express line to TCR if it followed the Heights Hike and Bike trail underneath Shepherd and Durham, through the Eureka yard to Hempstead Rd. It would appease any NIMBYs who may not want light rail going down W 11th and may allow for the train to attain higher speeds on those stretches where its grade separated going underneath those roads. Though I don't know if going 66 mph next to a Hike and Bike trail is a good idea.

 

High speed rail is hardly an improvement (read: not at all a better chocie) over a light rail in a NIMBY sense, and even if it was grade-separated, it's way too curvy and impractical to be used as a rail corridor, which is probably why this leg was abandoned in the first place. From what I've been told, freight trains ran very slowly through the corridor, which I imagine would be HSR as well.

 

Why not just end it at NW Mall and have car rentals, so that you could go downtown quicker...or the energy corridor...or wherever you please. Not everyone wants to go downtown.

[Howard Huge]

No doubt there will be a taxi stand. And rental cars.

Plus, isn't the Northwest Transit Center about a half mile down the road? I would think there would be a shuttle.

Or maybe we could have, I don't know, JUST HAD THE F*****G TRAIN GO ALL THE WAY TO DOWNTOWN.

JESUS CHRIST this cow town is just one massive fail after the other.

[Howard Huge]

So 90 minutes from Dallas to Houston, then another 90 minutes via bus/rented car to downtown? Haha.

Pretty much.

Might as well catch a flight from DFW to Bush then catch a cab downtown, the extra cost would be negligible.

[cspwal]

I like the Heights Corridor routing. I could see it constructed as a partial express line to TCR if it followed the Heights Hike and Bike trail underneath Shepherd and Durham, through the Eureka yard to Hempstead Rd. It would appease any NIMBYs who may not want light rail going down W 11th and may allow for the train to attain higher speeds on those stretches where its grade separated going underneath those roads. Though I don't know if going 66 mph next to a Hike and Bike trail is a good idea.

 

 

That's why I put 25 minutes for the heights route - I assumed it would be going more like 30 around the that trail and on streets.  I didn't even think of going through that yard - just looked at current ROWs.  IT, I think we were both talking about it being a light rail not the HSR - light rail has more benefits to areas it goes through than the HSR because of more common stations

 

To be clear - I would prefer it to terminate downtown, but if it can't we should figure out how to tie in downtown/med center/everything else into the NW mall site

 

 

Edited November 14, 2015 by cspwal

[IronTiger]

I don't understand the obsession with the station being located downtown. From what I've heard, it is supposed to be an alternative to flying, and we all know that downtown isn't the end-all "place to be" as it is other cities (there are many job centers).

 

Let me phrase it this way, if Dallas wasn't putting theirs downtown, would you even care?

[Slick Vik]

This NIMBY likes these ideas...

Far more value to the community than HSR running through.

I doubt all th NIMBYs feel the same way.

I don't understand the obsession with the station being located downtown. From what I've heard, it is supposed to be an alternative to flying, and we all know that downtown isn't the end-all "place to be" as it is other cities (there are many job centers).

Let me phrase it this way, if Dallas wasn't putting theirs downtown, would you even care?

No surprise here. It takes a vision to understand

High speed rail is hardly an improvement (read: not at all a better chocie) over a light rail in a NIMBY sense, and even if it was grade-separated, it's way too curvy and impractical to be used as a rail corridor, which is probably why this leg was abandoned in the first place. From what I've been told, freight trains ran very slowly through the corridor, which I imagine would be HSR as well.

Why not just end it at NW Mall and have car rentals, so that you could go downtown quicker...or the energy corridor...or wherever you please. Not everyone wants to go downtown.

Rent a car to go downtown? That's a very dumb idea

[IronTiger]

No surprise here. It takes a vision to understand

Rent a car to go downtown? That's a very dumb idea

It's not renting a car to go downtown, because you're still stuck on the idea that all destinations ARE downtown. It could be downtown...or the Energy Corridor...or Galveston...or Uptown...or University of Houston. The possibilities are limitless. I mean, I suppose you could take advantage of mass transit, but that only goes so far (and takes a while).

If the answer to that is "why not just drive down I-45", then it's time to take a long look at if HSR is a winning prospect.

[BigFootsSocks]

My hands are scorched after reading these hot takes on my phone.

[Ross]

Or maybe we could have, I don't know, JUST HAD THE F*****G TRAIN GO ALL THE WAY TO DOWNTOWN.

JESUS CHRIST this cow town is just one massive fail after the other.

 

You do realize that it's the Feds that said no to going Downtown. I am happy with that decision, though, as it seems stupid to rip through established neighborhoods for a RoW that would actually work. I suspect the proprietors of the train will be happy not to spend the extra billion or two it would have taken to actually get to Downtown.

 

[cspwal]

The no came in the first level of screening in the document - it seemed to me (someone with more experience in these kinds of things can correct me) that TCR gave them the financial cost and benefits of bringing it downtown, and that the environmental review found the costs of that, and it was a simple is Benefit > Cost? No? Ok this is elimated. It didn't even go into the more detailed analysis of the 2nd and 3rd levels.

[august948]

Or maybe we could have, I don't know, JUST HAD THE F*****G TRAIN GO ALL THE WAY TO DOWNTOWN.

JESUS CHRIST this cow town is just one massive fail after the other.

 

Why bother when it's only 15 mins to get to downtown anyway?  Houston's population center has already moved well west of downtown.

 

I guess it must be one massive fail after another that put us at the top of a lot of national lists in the past few years.

 

[Luminare]

Honestly guys I'm just freakin thrilled its gotten this far! We are actually possibly getting HSR! Yeah it's not going to downtown, but they have expressed serious interests in extending it into downtown later and as the population grows in town it will become crazy not too. Until that time I'm just glad its getting built at all. I've been enjoying my train traveling while I have been in Germany and would love to have a little train travel whenever I get back to the States  

[IronTiger]

Honestly guys I'm just freakin thrilled its gotten this far! We are actually possibly getting HSR! Yeah it's not going to downtown, but they have expressed serious interests in extending it into downtown later and as the population grows in town it will become crazy not too. Until that time I'm just glad its getting built at all. I've been enjoying my train traveling while I have been in Germany and would love to have a little train travel whenever I get back to the States

Welcome back!

[august948]

My hands are scorched after reading these hot takes on my phone.

 

Probably just an indication your battery is going bad.

 

[BigFootsSocks]

Probably just an indication your battery is going bad.

This only exacerbates the issue

[ArchFan]

For me, the idea of having the Houston terminus at NW Mall is a major fail.  Is that defunct mall or the area in general a major destination?  I agree that downtown Houston  is not going to be the principal destination for every single person traveling here from Dallas, but it still is central and is still the closest thing we have to a central core.  

 

OK, here's some out-of-the-box thinking.  Maybe we can have a multi-billion-dollar HSR line linking Dallas' Red Bird Mall to NW Mall in Houston.  I would not invest my money in such a scheme, but if some people would be so foolish, go ahead. 

 

I live closer to NW Mall than to downtown Houston, but ... seriously.  I think it would be better to cancel the project entirely than to do something dumb like that.  

Edited November 16, 2015 by ArchFan

[BigFootsSocks]

You guys realize that the station is probably going to be Northwest mall...as in, it's getting torn down

[mollusk]

As much as I would like to be able to stroll from my downtown office to a HSR station... the Northwest Mall site is just about the same distance and drive time from downtown Houston as Love Field is from downtown Dallas.  It will also be able to coordinate better with commuter and light rail, what with not having all those runways and hangars and near 100' wingspans and such in the way.

[F4shionablecha0s]

I'm a Dallasite and I can't believe you guys are screwing this up. All this work that we're doing on our end to make the HSR practical and modern and then on your end we're gonna plop the passengers in some parking lot in the middle of nowhere.

 

So incredibly stupid and shortsighted...

Edited November 16, 2015 by F4shionablecha0s