Downtown Houston 2036 Master Plan

[bachanon]

Why would you care if the RO theater gets torn down? It's not a significant building, any more so than any of the other early strip malls on Gray are.

Art Deco isn't significant?

[TowerSpotter]

The Only change I would like to see is retail in the bottom. 

[Texasota]

Is Ross trolling?

[Montrose1100]

But why waste the effort complaining about what someone does to their property? I like looking at great buildings too, but I am not personally invested in whether they exist or not.

What an odd thing to say on an architecture forum. Hopefully you don't work for any companies that own beautiful properties in this city. Or worse, have any say in the fate of such said buildings.

[Ross]

What an odd thing to say on an architecture forum. Hopefully you don't work for any companies that own beautiful properties in this city. Or worse, have any say in the fate of such said buildings.

 

I believe more in property rights than I do in my ability to look at cool buildings. If the owners of the Pennzoil building decide that it is in their best interest to change the facade, why is it anyone's business but theirs, assuming they meet any life safety requirements and abide by any deed restrictions?

 

[Ross]

I seriously don't understand this mindset.

 

So, you wouldn't care if your neighbor tears down their house and opens a tire dump/meth lab? You wouldn't care if the Pennzoil Towers were altered? You don't care if the last remaining vintage theater shuts down? All because you don't own them? 

 

Nice strawman with the meth lab reference. I think we were talking about the appearance of buildings, not the use of toxic chemicals in a residential area (we also have deed restrictions that limit the size and placement of meth labs and dumps within the neighborhood, and require some pretty strong fencing, with appropriate signage, to protect the neighbors). I might be bothered by changes in the Pennzoil building, but why would it matter? It's not my property, the owners don't owe me any obligation to maintain the appearance. I thought the changes to the Centerpoint building across from 1100 Louisiana were pretty darned ugly, and not something I would have done, but it's their building, they have to live with it.

 

I think the use of the police power of the City of Houston to force property owners to adhere to the aesthetic desires of random people in the community is undemocratic and unfair. Why shouldn't Weingarten, or any other property owner, especially commercial property, be able to change their property to meet the needs of their customers?

 

[Montrose1100]

Is Ross trolling?

By the very definition.

[Slick Vik]

Nice strawman with the meth lab reference. I think we were talking about the appearance of buildings, not the use of toxic chemicals in a residential area (we also have deed restrictions that limit the size and placement of meth labs and dumps within the neighborhood, and require some pretty strong fencing, with appropriate signage, to protect the neighbors). I might be bothered by changes in the Pennzoil building, but why would it matter? It's not my property, the owners don't owe me any obligation to maintain the appearance. I thought the changes to the Centerpoint building across from 1100 Louisiana were pretty darned ugly, and not something I would have done, but it's their building, they have to live with it.

I think the use of the police power of the City of Houston to force property owners to adhere to the aesthetic desires of random people in the community is undemocratic and unfair. Why shouldn't Weingarten, or any other property owner, especially commercial property, be able to change their property to meet the needs of their customers?

We live in a community. The thoughts of people matter.

[fatesdisastr]

I believe more in property rights than I do in my ability to look at cool buildings. If the owners of the Pennzoil building decide that it is in their best interest to change the facade, why is it anyone's business but theirs, assuming they meet any life safety requirements and abide by any deed restrictions?

 

 

I believe in property rights as much as the next person. I don't believe anyone here has said that we have any legal right to stop someone from changing the look of their property, but we do live in a country that we have the freedom to at least voice our opinion in opposition of such changes. If they refuse to listen to our concerns and go through with it then so be it, it is on them. But those of us who love architecture and history have a voice and we will use it, regardless if it makes a difference.

 

I'd rather use my tongue to speak than to merely bite it.

[Naviguessor]

Yes, Ross, a property owner, here, can do with their property what they wish (generally speaking and within reason). However, neighbors or the public, do not have to just sit back and ignor it. If Transwestern we to propose or announce changes that would alter the architectural significance of a madterpiece, your darn right that the neighbors and public can insert themselves into the situation. And I hope that we would. No...we can't force them not to. But, helping them understand the problem by voicing objections is what must be done. Now...I am sure Transwestern knows better than anyone what a treasure that they control and own. Yes, they must stay competitive and must improve the property in order to Save the property. But, this does not necessarily mean that they must alter the appearance of the exterior, for which the building is prized. That'd be just foolish. Lets hope they are not fools.

[Ross]

Everyone has the right to express their opinion, and the property owners have the right to ignore the opinions. Where it gets bad is when the protestors start trying to convince the city to pass an ordinance that enforces the protestors sense of aesthetics, which has happened every time there's a rumor that he RO theater is going to be demolished.

[Ross]

We live in a community. The thoughts of people matter.

 

So Vik, are you saying that if I build a great building that people love, I shouldn't be able to tear it down 30 years later if I get tired of it? That seems pretty much like telling Bob Dylan he couldn't play electric guitar instead of acoustic.

 

[downtownian]

Updated the development timeline for:

1) Moved Hines Residential at Market Square Park from "Potential Developments" to Q1 2016

2) Moved Green Street Renovation from Q4 2013 to Q2 2014

 

[jt16]

So Vik, are you saying that if I build a great building that people love, I shouldn't be able to tear it down 30 years later if I get tired of it? That seems pretty much like telling Bob Dylan he couldn't play electric guitar instead of acoustic.

That's why I hate the "community" liberals have created. It usually means a small minority are going to try and bully the masses into what they tell you is good for you. This new concept of community is just an erosion of personal freedom.

[livincinco]

So, just to reset the conversation, everyone is getting all worked up about a renovation that, at last check, is really just something that has been guessed at on this forum. Don't you think that it might be a good idea to find out what the plans actually are before the outrage starts?

[Slick Vik]

Everyone has the right to express their opinion, and the property owners have the right to ignore the opinions. Where it gets bad is when the protestors start trying to convince the city to pass an ordinance that enforces the protestors sense of aesthetics, which has happened every time there's a rumor that he RO theater is going to be demolished.

Sometimes the value of a building to the community is greater than to the owner.

[livincinco]

Sometimes the value of a building to the community is greater than to the owner.

Sure and such buildings are generally designated as national landmarks. Seems like a stretch to me to put this building at that level.

[Ross]

Sometimes the value of a building to the community is greater than to the owner.

So, is your argument that if the community, whoever that is, decides the building is worth more to them than to the owner, the owner ought to bow to the desires of the community without compensation?

[fatesdisastr]

So, just to reset the conversation, everyone is getting all worked up about a renovation that, at last check, is really just something that has been guessed at on this forum. Don't you think that it might be a good idea to find out what the plans actually are before the outrage starts?

 

Seems like we may have to wait till the first of the year to find that out.

[Texasota]

Sure and such buildings are generally designated as national landmarks. Seems like a stretch to me to put this building at that level.

 

Pennzoil Place earned Johnson a Pritzker. The three most architecturally significant buildings in houston are probably the Menil, MFAH, and Pennzoil.

 

Landmark designation tends to happen *after* 50 or years, though exceptions are made. Pennzoil is less than 40 years old.

[jgriff]

Sometimes the value of a building to the community is greater than to the owner.

If they think it's worth so much they can buy it. That's the only way to prove how much you value something.

[livincinco]

Pennzoil Place earned Johnson a Pritzker. The three most architecturally significant buildings in houston are probably the Menil, MFAH, and Pennzoil.

Landmark designation tends to happen *after* 50 or years, though exceptions are made. Pennzoil is less than 40 years old.

OK, I'm clearly not an architect.

[KinkaidAlum]

That's why I hate the "community" liberals have created. It usually means a small minority are going to try and bully the masses into what they tell you is good for you. This new concept of community is just an erosion of personal freedom.

 

Yes, because liberals have so much power in Texas I can see how you'd feel threatened. 

[Montrose1100]

If they think it's worth so much they can buy it. That's the only way to prove how much you value something.

This is crazy to me. Do you think the UNESCO world heritage sites are pointless?

I certainly don't have enough money to buy the Mona Lisa but I do value it. This comment is crazy!! The only way to prove you value something is to buy it. Wow. Would you say that about your spouse? Children? Friends? Family?

Does this go for the same as the animals? Let them be hunted to extinction, however if someone could afford to buy and raise them it shouldn't matter. Unless you want future generations to only look at them from the Internet.

Some things are more important than money my friend.

[Ross]

This is crazy to me. Do you think the UNESCO world heritage sites are pointless?

I certainly don't have enough money to buy the Mona Lisa but I do value it. This comment is crazy!! The only way to prove you value something is to buy it. Wow. Would you say that about your spouse? Children? Friends? Family?

Does this go for the same as the animals? Let them be hunted to extinction, however if someone could afford to buy and raise them it shouldn't matter. Unless you want future generations to only look at them from the Internet.

Some things are more important than money my friend.

Yet more irrelevant strawmen. UNESCO heritage sites are generally owned by governments, and unlikely to be changed. The Mona Lisa is owned by a government entity. A private owner would be fully justified in burning the Mona Lisa if he so desired. Animal hunting is controlled by the government for native species, at least in Texas, exotics are the property of the land owners, and can be hunted at will, even to local extinction.

 

Can you explain why you think the owner of the Pennzoil tower has any obligation to you to preserve the building in it's current configuration?

 

[Montrose1100]

Yet more irrelevant strawmen. UNESCO heritage sites are generally owned by governments, and unlikely to be changed. The Mona Lisa is owned by a government entity. A private owner would be fully justified in burning the Mona Lisa if he so desired. Animal hunting is controlled by the government for native species, at least in Texas, exotics are the property of the land owners, and can be hunted at will, even to local extinction.

Can you explain why you think the owner of the Pennzoil tower has any obligation to you to preserve the building in it's current configuration?

I will admit I was being a bit dramatic but that statement was completely absurd.

Of course there is an obligation to preserve the building as is, it's one of Johnson's masterpieces and put Houston on the architectural map. It was also the dawn of the postmodern style breaking away from the traditional modern and international styles that were at the time popular. Altering the façade, design, or shape in anyway is changing history. I would say it is comparable to changing the history textbooks in the classrooms, And then the students accepting that as what really happened.

Philip Johnson himself hoped to leave behind a legacy, that people would look back at his Designs the same way that he looks back at cathedrals in France.

So forgive me if I'm a little bit passionate about the subject, But I guess it's not an obligation just to me but to the whole world.

[Ross]

What makes Johnson's work more important than, say, the work done by the  guy who designs Bucee's?

[Slick Vik]

What makes Johnson's work more important than, say, the work done by the guy who designs Bucee's?

Wow

[Montrose1100]

What makes Johnson's work more important than, say, the work done by the guy who designs Bucee's?

You must be joking... I will take the high road and just tell you to have a wonderful evening.

[Marcus Allen]

Obviously, all Ross is doing is ruffling feathers. I can not and neither should anyone else, take this bozo seriously. Back to topic, I would be sad if the facade was changed on those buildings. I am hoping it's like others have said; a renovation of the interior or a revamping to more modern yet similar looking materials for the exterior. I understand the market drives productivity, but I am also constantly surprised at Htown's willingness to readily replace locales which are deemed obsolete. Maybe the average Houstonian wouldn't care if PP was replaced, but architectural buffs would. Hey, I am still mourning the possible demolition of the Astrodome, although I know it's outdated. Maybe I am just sentimental. Regardless, we all are entitled to our opinions of course, I just find it annoying that someone would come onto An Architectural Forum, and down play the importance of any structure's impact on the surrounding community. That is just asinine.