Retail On Main Street

[infinite_jim]

If I'm playing SimCity, I would skyconnect a re-re-renovated Greenstreet to a renovated Park Shoppes (Houston Center) via a Highline absolute knock-off, type steel stucture going over Fannin north from Dallas and turn east down Lamar to arrive at the Southwest corner of San Jac & Lamar (there's a tunnel entrance there too). Killer app: water features (and could also be a sidwalk below landscaping feature). 

 

I don't think the Dallas St. renovation that was envisioned earlier by the mgmt district really made much suggestions for addressing the parking garage street faces or the loading docks. It's best to try and minimize the racket and olfactory offenses, and those beeping, approaching car buzzers are the worst. 

Edited March 4, 2014 by infinite_jim

[livincinco]

Traditional downtown department stores like Macy's are dying, big box retailers like Walmart and Target haven't pushed downtown locations, there's a limited audience for "upscale" retailers as at the Galleria, and like yourself, a lot of people find it easier to just shop online. 

 

Mundane retail like dry cleaners and hardware stores make a lot of sense to serve residents.

 

Actually a lot of traditional "big box" retailers have been looking at different formats that are better suited to urban environments for the last couple of years, but the results have been pretty mixed.  Very difficult to get the same level of profitability from those locations that they do from their suburban locations. That being said, I agree with you that mundane stores are the most likely result.  I'd expect to see a lot of the same kind of stores that are found in suburban strip malls - dry cleaner, nail place, coffee shop, etc.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/26/business/retailers-expand-into-cities-by-opening-smaller-stores.html?_r=0

http://plannersweb.com/2014/02/walmart-stores-go-small-urban/

[arche_757]

There is a reason drycleaners, nail/hair salons, coffee shops, sandwich shops, donut places make it in suburban strip centers... they have relatively cheap leases.  The trouble is getting these needed, though low operating cost (and low value) businesses to take a risk on more expensive leases in the core.  They will also need enough foot traffic to survive.  And while the demand is I'm sure high for a dry cleaner (for example), most Downtown workers who need dry cleaning probably just wait till they get home to use the local cleaners.

 

There will be a time when enough residents live Downtown that they will demand that kind of retail and that they will get that kind of retail, but I do not think we've reached that level yet.  With the build out of the proposed and now underconstruction residential properties in Downtown we will reach that peak where there are enough people living within a walking distance that these sort of stores will start to pop-up.  That will help fuel more retail and further exploration into the Downtown market by private retail.

[livincinco]

There is a reason drycleaners, nail/hair salons, coffee shops, sandwich shops, donut places make it in suburban strip centers... they have relatively cheap leases.  The trouble is getting these needed, though low operating cost (and low value) businesses to take a risk on more expensive leases in the core.  They will also need enough foot traffic to survive.  And while the demand is I'm sure high for a dry cleaner (for example), most Downtown workers who need dry cleaning probably just wait till they get home to use the local cleaners.

 

There will be a time when enough residents live Downtown that they will demand that kind of retail and that they will get that kind of retail, but I do not think we've reached that level yet.  With the build out of the proposed and now underconstruction residential properties in Downtown we will reach that peak where there are enough people living within a walking distance that these sort of stores will start to pop-up.  That will help fuel more retail and further exploration into the Downtown market by private retail.

 

In complete agreement, it would make no sense for the city to provide incentives for retail development until the residential base is in place.  To your point, once that residential base is sufficient, low level retail will develop and that's a really good time to look at how to develop retail.

[arche_757]

From the look of things - we should reach that level in perhaps the next 2 years or so - assuming 3/4 of the projects come to fruition and they fill rather quickly.

[cloud713]

If I'm playing SimCity, I would skyconnect a re-re-renovated Greenstreet to a renovated Park Shoppes (Houston Center) via a Highline absolute knock-off, type steel stucture going over Fannin north from Dallas and turn east down Lamar to arrive at the Southwest corner of San Jac & Lamar (there's a tunnel entrance there too). Killer app: water features (and could also be a sidwalk below landscaping feature). 

that would be awesome.. or if it was from roof to roof, from the top of Greenstreet (which would all be converted to a park, in keeping with the grassy area on the roof they had in front of the hotel in the renderings), over to another potion of the newly converted park on the roof of the HC downtown club, and finally over to the roof of the shops at HC, which could be the final piece of the park. like you were saying, throw some water features in there (there could even be a stream that flowed down from the shops at HC to Greenstreet since the roof of the three buildings step down a little bit each time), maybe portions of the bridges with glass floors to look down at traffic on the street below.. just little stuff to keep it fun.

TBH, i dont see two competitors interlinking their developments, but maybe im wrong. or maybe Midway ends up buying the HC and connects them? heh..

a much more realistic connector solution would be a skybridge from GreenStreet to the HC downtown club, which then has a skybridge over to the shops at HC.

[Urbannizer]

Downtown Living Initiative Program

Cap pushed up to 5,000 units, previously 2,500

Now includes pretty much all of downtown

Same requirements, incentives and termination date (June 2016)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54482015/2014-02-26-14%20Annual%20Update%20for%20CHI%20membership.pptx

[sdotwill84]

Downtown Living Initiative Program

Cap pushed up to 5,000 units, previously 2,500

Now includes pretty much all of downtown

Same requirements, incentives and termination date (June 2016)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54482015/2014-02-26-14%20Annual%20Update%20for%20CHI%20membership.pptx

 

Nice. Hopefully this spurs more and more development in the next few years.

 

I'm not sure but is the Chapter 380 initiative similar to this but for East Downtown (as in EADO)? If so, why don't they pub it more?

 

I'm sure there are developers waiting to start projects in EADO but would like the same benefits downtown gets.

[cloud713]

Downtown Living Initiative Program

Cap pushed up to 5,000 units, previously 2,500

Now includes pretty much all of downtown

Same requirements, incentives and termination date (June 2016)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54482015/2014-02-26-14%20Annual%20Update%20for%20CHI%20membership.pptx

YESSSS!!! i was hoping for 5,000. that will TRIPLE the number units that were originally in downtown. i would think the population will be closer to 15,000 than 10,000 if they max out the cap space.

what page was that on, urb?

Edited March 7, 2014 by cloud713

[lockmat]

At an average of 250 units per building, at 5000 units, that's 20 buildings.

How many are planned right now? I need to make a spreadsheet.

[lockmat]

At an average of 250 units per building, at 5000 units, that's 20 buildings.

How many are planned right now? I need to make a spreadsheet.

Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Apoyf4DBFnEGdGFxb2Fwa0JJYmVEZ201VER0V2hYdGc&usp=sharing

3,117 approved

1,883 units remaining

312 avg units per building

Edited to split the Camden projects in two for a more accurate avg.

Edited March 7, 2014 by lockmat

[Sellanious Caesar]

1,883 units left I see. They got the first 3,000 really quick. They'll have to raise the cap again really soon if pace stays current (or even drops off slightly).

Edit: lockmat beat me to it. Nice calculations and thanks.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Sellanious Caesar

[cloud713]

Yeah it's possible at the rate weve been seeing announcements over the last few months that we will hit 5,000 well before the June(?) 2016 cut off.. These are insanely exciting times IMO.. We all want downtown to have that residential base to sustain the bars/restaurants/retail, and it's finally happening!

Edit. The bms market square tower is huge! Didn't realize it had that many more units than Hines market square tower. So 11 projects.. This isn't counting the apartment building just south of SkyHouse is it?

Edited March 7, 2014 by cloud713

[HoustonIsHome]

Wow, I didn't see the fingers project in the spreadsheet. So in just a few years downtown is going from 2500 units to 5600 units. That's huge. Cant imagine a market being flooded with that many new units.

5000 is just crazy fast. That would mean 7500 units or over 14,000 residents.

My mind is thinking of all sorts of weird stuff like does that mean downtown is getting 15,000 new parking spots? That's not even counting the new commercial buildings with parking, or the 16floor parking structure. I hope the surrounding hoods don't get plagued with new gas stations.

Something is telling me that someone needs to take jumper cables to downtown to jump start development of other amenities.

The next superbowl here is going to feel soo much different from the last one.

Discovery green is going to be key, and with all these residents who are going to be walking distance away plus the 2000 new hotel rooms on the line that is a huge potential for pedestrian activity. I guess we can fill the void with street vendors during the day, but oh man we need more evening options

[lockmat]

Wow, I didn't see the fingers project in the spreadsheet.s

Yeah, they started their project before the program was announced so they're not included, but I should probably add it to the side.

[totheskies]

There is a reason drycleaners, nail/hair salons, coffee shops, sandwich shops, donut places make it in suburban strip centers... they have relatively cheap leases.  The trouble is getting these needed, though low operating cost (and low value) businesses to take a risk on more expensive leases in the core.  They will also need enough foot traffic to survive.  And while the demand is I'm sure high for a dry cleaner (for example), most Downtown workers who need dry cleaning probably just wait till they get home to use the local cleaners.

 

There will be a time when enough residents live Downtown that they will demand that kind of retail and that they will get that kind of retail, but I do not think we've reached that level yet.  With the build out of the proposed and now underconstruction residential properties in Downtown we will reach that peak where there are enough people living within a walking distance that these sort of stores will start to pop-up.  That will help fuel more retail and further exploration into the Downtown market by private retail.

 

I agree with your sentiment here that pushing residential is key to developing a proper retail base for Downtown.  But Houston has done an exceptional job with that, and I believe now is the time to broaden the focus.  As the new apartments are getting constructed, we also need t plan on keeping new residents in Downtown. 

 

There's one other consumer base that no one is bringing up... transit riders.  As Metro busses continue to feed into the rail lines, more and more people are going to be passing through Downtown, because it is the central hub of the city's transit network.  More retail options (mainly thinking grocers here) will be needed as the share of bus and train passengers continues to grow. 

 

But the key here?  It has to be the right kind of retail.  So many iterations (Houston Pavilions, Houston Center) have failed because they're just building stuff without considering what the Downtown target populations actually need.  Phoenicia has been so successful IMO because of the multi-use nature of the store.  It's a specialty grocer, a wine bar, an eatery and a music venue all rolled into one... which is why they never lack for customers. This is the kind of retail that Downtown needs right now or in the near future so that residents won't feel like they're shut down after 5pm. 

[Houston19514]

Wow, I didn't see the fingers project in the spreadsheet. So in just a few years downtown is going from 2500 units to 5600 units. That's huge. Cant imagine a market being flooded with that many new units.

5000 is just crazy fast. That would mean 7500 units or over 14,000 residents.

 

 

Very exciting indeed.   But let's not get carried away with our expectations.  Downtown multi-family residential is likely to have an average occupancy in the neighborhood of 1.2 per unit.  Even at 1.25 per unit, with 7500 units, we're still talking only 9,375 total residents.

 

Edited March 10, 2014 by Houston19514

[Naviguessor]

^^ Plus growing, and underserved populations North, East, South East and South of of DT. 

[Houston19514]

^^ Plus growing, and underserved populations North, East, South East and South of of DT. 

 

Absolutely.   The whole greater downtown area is booming.  Quite amazing.

[mollusk]

Probably 2/3 of the times I go to Phonecia it's either at lunch or on my way home from work.  However, that does leave the other 1/3 for when I make special trip just to get some groceries.  For those of us in the Heights, it's less of a trek than Central Market and just a smidge further than Whole Paycheck, with better prices thrown into the mix.  

[HoustonIsHome]

Very exciting indeed.   But let's not get carried away with our expectations.  Downtown multi-family residential is likely to have an average occupancy in the neighborhood of 1.2 per unit.  Even at 1.25 per unit, with 7500 units, we're still talking only 9,375 total residents.

No one is getting carried away, im just following the thread:

  

if 10,000 is the tipping point, we are well on our way to passing that figure. before the residential initiative there were ~2,500 units in downtown, and close to 5,000 residents i believe.

No one disputed the 2500units/ 5000 residents figure so I took it to be fairly accurate. That's all

[Houston19514]

^  The 2,500 units/5,000 residents was not fairly accurate.  I apologize for having not previously disputed it.  ;-)

 

The total population at the time of the 2010 census was 14,342.  But that number includes a large number of "residents" of various jails and also includes "residents" of homeless shelters, group homes and the like. 

 

The total number of housing units and residents living in housing units in downtown Houston as of the 2010 census (and I don't think any housing units have been added since then) was:

 

Downtown Houston:  2,409 housing units/2,520 residents.   1.046 people per housing unit.  

More fun facts from the US Census:  73.5% of downtown households had only one occupant.

 

We are setting ourselves up for disappointment if we build up expectations of a downtown population of 14,000 living in the hoped-for 7,500 or so housing units.  As I said above, areas such as downtown Houston are likely to have an average occupancy in the neighborhood of 1.2 people per unit.  Even once we attain 7,500 units downtown, we will probably still be a little short of the much-desired 10,000 residential population.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Houston19514

[Moore713]

New bar opened on main secertly (Barringer) 410 main...now back to the subject at had... the program was ment to be a calatlast so it really is hard to say what effects it will have on the area once it expires.. I think it holds depends   on the market, DT ability to market itself to retail.. really think they should focous the bulk of their effort on mom and pop style places( small business owners) Get the building to rent out spaces to small buiness instead of putting to much into heavy hitter retailers who are actually not very reliable right now... I understand the need to compete with Uptown and other shopping heavy hitters, but baby steps first build up the area and then let the big boys enters when it has become a spot most people go to

[HoustonIsHome]

^ The 2,500 units/5,000 residents was not fairly accurate. I apologize for having not previously disputed it. ;-)

The total population at the time of the 2010 census was 14,342. But that number includes a large number of "residents" of various jails and also includes "residents" of homeless shelters, group homes and the like.

The total number of housing units and residents living in housing units in downtown Houston as of the 2010 census (and I don't think any housing units have been added since then) was:

Downtown Houston: 2,409 housing units/2,520 residents. 1.046 people per housing unit.

More fun facts from the US Census: 73.5% of downtown households had only one occupant.

We are setting ourselves up for disappointment if we build up expectations of a downtown population of 14,000 living in the hoped-for 7,500 or so housing units. As I said above, areas such as downtown Houston are likely to have an average occupancy in the neighborhood of 1.2 people per unit. Even once we attain 7,500 units downtown, we will probably still be a little short of the much-desired 10,000 residential population.

How do you pull up census figures per zip code.

I found info for the city and metro but not zip directly from the census.

The city website lists the downtown pop at 19k and lists a 1miles radius of greenstreet as having a pop of 23k

http://www.downtownhouston.org/retail/demographics-reports/

Downtown is made up of four zip codes

77002 (including some of midtown)- 16,793

77010 (tiny area near disco green)- 400

77003 (more areas around disco green)

77020 (small area on the north end of downtown)

All of 77010 are in downtown, most if 77002 is in downtown. 70003 and 77020 barely make it into downtown. If this info is correct subtracting the area of midtown from that figure I would say the downtown population including the jail is about 14k. Looking up the population of the jail in 2010 I found 8200. That would leave about 6000 as a figure for downtown people outside of jail.

Heck going just by 77002 there were 8500 people living in that zip outside of jail. Throw in all of 77010 and whatever 77003 and 77020 contributes and you can see that the 5000 figure the poster gave was not far fetched.

Again these are not directly from the census so...

[Houston19514]

I didn't use zip codes.  I used census tracts.  Downtown (within the freeway loop) is comprised of 2 census tracts.  Those two tracts cover the entire downtown and they do not include any areas outside of downtown.

 

The 2010 population of downtown Houston (living in households) was 2,520.

[HoustonIsHome]

I didn't use zip codes. I used census tracts. Downtown (within the freeway loop) is comprised of 2 census tracts. Those two tracts cover the entire downtown and they do not include any areas outside of downtown.

The 2010 population of downtown Houston (living in households) was 2,520.

Sorry to be so argumentative but this is directly on topic. The census tract below the bayou had a population of 4200 residents in 2010 further backing up the posters quote of 5000 residents before the incentives began

http://www.usa.com/TX201100000.html

The census tract with the jail Had a pop of 9652

http://www.usa.com/TX2012101001.html

Going by zip or by census tract both show a residential pop at about 5000 so the dude was right.

[Houston19514]

Sorry to be so argumentative but this is directly on topic. The census tract below the bayou had a population of 4200 residents in 2010 further backing up the posters quote of 5000 residents before the incentives began

http://www.usa.com/TX201100000.html

The census tract with the jail Had a pop of 9652

http://www.usa.com/TX2012101001.html

Going by zip or by census tract both show a residential pop at about 5000 so the dude was right.

 

No.  As I previously explained, those numbers include people in jails.   The number of people living in residences (apartments, condos and single family units) in downtown Houston (the residential or household population, which is the subject matter) are exactly as I showed above -- 2,520.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Houston19514

[HoustonIsHome]

Can you read?

Downtown has two census blocks.

One entirely south of the bayou with a population near 5k, the other north of the bayou where the jail complex is located.

You have posted no links, nothing other than your own estimates. I'm done entertaining this. Come back with hard evidence. All evidence I have seen have pointed towards the validity of the earlier poster's figures- about 5000 residents in about 2500 residential units.

Its not rocket science finding out how many are in jail. You zoom in on the northern census tract and it breaks down into census blocks. There is one block that lists 9000 people in ZERO housing units what does that tell you?

You were mistaken, move on

[Houston19514]

I am quite aware there are two census blocks.  They both have jails in them, as well as other group homes and non-household locations of individuals.  My numbers are from the Census Bureau.  They are correct.

 

Note Census Block 100000-1-020 from the site you helpfully linked.  It's the block bounded by Texas, Prairie, San Jacinto, and Caroline.   Zero housing units.  Population 609.   As you so kindly put it, it's not rocket science to see that is the homeless assistance facility affiliated with Christ Church Cathedral.  

 

Note Census Block 100000-1-029.  It's the block bounded by Texas, Capital, San Jacinto and Caroline.  Zero housing units.  Population 881.  Again, as you put it, it's not rocket science to see that is the federal detention facility.

 

Note Census Block 100000-1-045.  The block bounded by LaBranch, Crawford, Preston and Congress.  Zero housing units.  Population 445.  It's not rocket science to see that it is a homeless shelter.

 

 

The total population for the census tract south of the bayou, per your linked source, was 4690.  Subtracting just these 3 blocks of non-household population, takes us down to 2,756.  There are apparently a couple hundred more people living in that census tract in non-household spaces,taking us to my oft-repeated and still correct downtown population of 2,520 (which includes a very few people living in households in the northern census tract.

 

Again, downtown Houston, as of the 2010 census had 2,409 housing units in which lived 2,520 people.

 

Edit.  Just ran the numbers a different way on the Census Bureau website.    The actual 2010 population of downtown Houston (Census Tracts 1000 and 2101), per the US Census Bureau, is 2,384.  I apologize for having overstated the actual population.

 

Edited February 2, 2017 by Houston19514

[Moore713]

Can you read?

Downtown has two census blocks.

One entirely south of the bayou with a population near 5k, the other north of the bayou where the jail complex is located.

You have posted no links, nothing other than your own estimates. I'm done entertaining this. Come back with hard evidence. All evidence I have seen have pointed towards the validity of the earlier poster's figures- about 5000 residents in about 2500 residential units.

Its not rocket science finding out how many are in jail. You zoom in on the northern census tract and it breaks down into census blocks. There is one block that lists 9000 people in ZERO housing units what does that tell you?

You were mistaken, move on

 

 

You seem to be right once you break down the numbers they cant be talking about the prison ,