H-Town Man Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 They do contribute, that's why you have all the fast food restaurants in the tunnels. Beyond that, they don't support much more. Totally agree with you and that's obviously a huge factor in the retail that exists, but I'm not sure what percentage of workers shop near their job vs. the percentage that shop near their houses. I'm sure that data exists, I just haven't seen it. I think 1/100th of office workers is a pretty conservative estimate for contribution to street level retail. And it will increase as they see more residents walking the streets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgriff Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I worked downtown for serveral years. On weekdays that the weather is nice the streets are crowded with people. It's not dead. A LOT of people come out of the tunnels. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fernz Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I worked downtown for serveral years. On weekdays that the weather is nice the streets are crowded with people. It's not dead. A LOT of people come out of the tunnels. But they don't shop, it's been proven. Look at what happened to the shopping center at Houston Center, all their brand-name retailers left. And look at what happened to Foley's. And Houston pavillions couldn't get any retail other than restaurants and entertainment. Retail follows rooftops, it's an old adage, it's tried and true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-Town Man Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 But they don't shop, it's been proven. Look at what happened to the shopping center at Houston Center, all their brand-name retailers left. And look at what happened to Foley's. And Houston pavillions couldn't get any retail other than restaurants and entertainment. Retail follows rooftops, it's an old adage, it's tried and true. Macy's had annual sales of either $15 or $17 million, can't remember for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livincinco Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Macy's had annual sales of either $15 or $17 million, can't remember for sure. That's actually extremely poor especially for a location of that size. Macy's per store average is right about $30 million. If it's true that they were only doing $17 million, then its not surprising at all that they closed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgriff Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 But they don't shop, it's been proven. Look at what happened to the shopping center at Houston Center, all their brand-name retailers left. And look at what happened to Foley's. And Houston pavillions couldn't get any retail other than restaurants and entertainment. Retail follows rooftops, it's an old adage, it's tried and true. No, they don't shop. They mostly are going to eat. I did walk to the midtown Randall's for Groceries about once a week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-Town Man Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) That's actually extremely poor especially for a location of that size. Macy's per store average is right about $30 million. If it's true that they were only doing $17 million, then its not surprising at all that they closed.Yes, their average is more like 30 million, but that wasn't my point. My point was to contradict fernz' assertion that "they don't shop" and to argue that some retail is possible without rooftops, and that office workers do contribute something. Otherwise, where did the $15 million come from? Edited February 27, 2014 by H-Town Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fernz Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Yes, their average is more like 30 million, but that wasn't my point. My point was to contradict fernz' assertion that "they don't shop" and to argue that some retail is possible without rooftops, and that office workers do contribute something. Otherwise, where did the $15 million come from? Ok, they do shop, but not enough for the stores to be profitable. So my overall point is still correct, office workers don't support retail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-Town Man Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Ok, they do shop, but not enough for the stores to be profitable. So my overall point is still correct, office workers don't support retail. I could maybe agree if you said "office workers don't support much street-level retail by themselves." Foley's/Macy's did limp along for decades. My point in this thread has been that office workers help support retail, and we shouldn't look at residential numbers by themselves when discussing prospects for retail downtown. Some of those office workers will come down and shop. On a sidenote, someone mentioned lower Manhattan as an example of office workers not supporting retail, but it occurred to me that the mall beneath the World Trade Center was (IIRC) the highest grossing shopping mall in America before its destruction. Of course, it wasn't street level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livincinco Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Yes, their average is more like 30 million, but that wasn't my point. My point was to contradict fernz' assertion that "they don't shop" and to argue that some retail is possible without rooftops, and that office workers do contribute something. Otherwise, where did the $15 million come from? Sure - there's always a number of factors in something like this. Downtown workers, convention traffic, tourist and entertainment traffic are all factors so it's clearly a simplification to just say 10,000 residents is the magic number. The point is more around having a base of continuous traffic during non-business hours that a retailer can expect. Workers provide minimal uplift during evenings and weekends. Convention and entertainment is event driven and can be heavily cyclical. Residential is more even and even more importantly provides that off hour volume that retailers (and restaurants) need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate99 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) On a sidenote, someone mentioned lower Manhattan as an example of office workers not supporting retail, but it occurred to me that the mall beneath the World Trade Center was (IIRC) the highest grossing shopping mall in America before its destruction. Of course, it wasn't street level. I've never understood the phenomenon of placing giant gobs of the usual suspects of retailers that are already at every mall in North America in the path of heavy concentrations of tourists, but it must work. You can't swing a stripper/hooker pamphleteer in Las Vegas without hitting a Gap brand or Sunglass Hut store, and those guys are tiny. Edited February 28, 2014 by Nate99 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livincinco Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) On a sidenote, someone mentioned lower Manhattan as an example of office workers not supporting retail, but it occurred to me that the mall beneath the World Trade Center was (IIRC) the highest grossing shopping mall in America before its destruction. Of course, it wasn't street level. Fair point, but it was also a major transit hub so it got a ridiculously high level of foot traffic. It's also relevant that it was directly under a major tourist attraction. Edited February 28, 2014 by livincinco 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swtsig Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 can you guys please start a new thread for this completely off topic discussion you are having? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdude Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 can you guys please start a new thread for this completely off topic discussion you are having? No bother, just peeled off the posts into a new topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejack Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 And look at what happened to Foley's. 66 years of successful operation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston19514 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 And look at what happened to Foley's. 66 years of successful operation? ... in spite of many years of horrible mismanagement by May Co.... and even then they only closed because they lost their lease. Macy's has said they are interested in opening a smaller store in downtown Houston. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloud713 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Macy's has said they are interested in opening a smaller store in downtown Houston.thats interesting.. where did you hear that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdude Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 ... in spite of many years of horrible mismanagement by May Co.... and even then they only closed because they lost their lease. Macy's has said they are interested in opening a smaller store in downtown Houston. If that is the case it is surprising. I wouldn't necessarily blame the closure on mismanagement thought. The old full-line mid-market department store is a slowly dying breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arche_757 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 ^Sort of off topic but... most of the department stores over extended themselves. Tyler, Texas is a pretty good sized town, same with Victoria, Texas but neither really had a need for more than 1 major department store. Besides that the department store of Norman Rockwells era has morphed into the Targets, Wal-Marts, Sams, Costcos of today. Why not just sell everything under one roof? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinite_jim Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 As a resident and employee in downtown I will just say that I'm not that interested in retail itself. Public accommodations are more worthwhile; like wider sidewalks, art, trees, etc. I buy most of what I want online anyways and can't be bothered to waste time hunting for physical goods (unless it's crate diggin for rare grooves). Service oriented retail might work like strip clubs or dry cleaners but physical retail is like driving your car, it's fun for about 5 minutes and then I just want the computer to take over so I can read my feeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Vik Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Phonecia seems do be doing well even off hours. There is some residential near Wall Street I have a cousin who lives on Wall Street and we went to Adrian's near it to eat pizza. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronTiger Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 I would think that a start would be seeing if a partial opening of the tunnels during weekends is at all feasible economically. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog08 Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 It's complicated. We need the residential base but also downtown needs to become a destination in itself. Hopefully the increased focused on conventions and luring more large scale events (more superbowls, final fours, all star games, college bowl games, etc.) will help DT gain good traction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texasota Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 I honestly think the convention center, Toyota Center, BBVA Compass, Minute Maid, and the Theater District are enough for downtown to be a destination. I'm not really sure what else you could add to that mix...even in terms of music venues it's got HOB, Bayou Music Center...maybe smaller venues? There's NOTSUOH, but that's really small, and somewhat limited in terms of who it attracts. I'd love to see the Majestic become a full-time venue.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog08 Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) I honestly think the convention center, Toyota Center, BBVA Compass, Minute Maid, and the Theater District are enough for downtown to be a destination. I'm not really sure what else you could add to that mix...even in terms of music venues it's got HOB, Bayou Music Center...maybe smaller venues? There's NOTSUOH, but that's really small, and somewhat limited in terms of who it attracts. I'd love to see the Majestic become a full-time venue.. There's a lot to do downtown as you listed the attractions, yet it has taken the leap forward yet. As I said it's complicated. Houston's DT is large and spread out which doesn't help make it a true destination, although there have been steps to solve that issue. Along with the obvious residential base and more hotel rooms that's in the pipeline, DT is poised to take a significant step forward. I think big events like the ones I mentioned above gives Houston a chance to show off DT and midtown to the nation, state, and even to itself. Edited March 3, 2014 by kdog08 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdude Posted March 3, 2014 Author Share Posted March 3, 2014 It's complicated. We need the residential base but also downtown needs to become a destination in itself. Hopefully the increased focused on conventions and luring more large scale events (more superbowls, final fours, all star games, college bowl games, etc.) will help DT gain good traction. Special events such as you mentioned are a nice (albeit expensive) sideline, but I don't think that a healthy downtown can be based around them. As a resident and employee in downtown I will just say that I'm not that interested in retail itself. Public accommodations are more worthwhile; like wider sidewalks, art, trees, etc. I buy most of what I want online anyways and can't be bothered to waste time hunting for physical goods (unless it's crate diggin for rare grooves). Service oriented retail might work like strip clubs or dry cleaners but physical retail is like driving your car, it's fun for about 5 minutes and then I just want the computer to take over so I can read my feeds. Lol at the conjunction of strip clubs and dry cleaners, but the point is well taken. I said it in another downtown retail topic, but there needs to be some consideration of what retail is appropriate and can survive. Traditional downtown department stores like Macy's are dying, big box retailers like Walmart and Target haven't pushed downtown locations, there's a limited audience for "upscale" retailers as at the Galleria, and like yourself, a lot of people find it easier to just shop online. Mundane retail like dry cleaners and hardware stores make a lot of sense to serve residents. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronTiger Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 On a sidenote, someone mentioned lower Manhattan as an example of office workers not supporting retail, but it occurred to me that the mall beneath the World Trade Center was (IIRC) the highest grossing shopping mall in America before its destruction. Of course, it wasn't street level. Like I said, we need to see if the tunnels could be opened on weekends. I'm not saying by any means that the tunnels need to be remerchandised like a "regular" mall, but it could be great as a test to see if additional retail could be supported. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Vik Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Like I said, we need to see if the tunnels could be opened on weekends. I'm not saying by any means that the tunnels need to be remerchandised like a "regular" mall, but it could be great as a test to see if additional retail could be supported. Tunnels are absolutely dead after 2 pm. You have some people walk through them from 5-530 but after about 6 99% of the workers are gone from downtown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronTiger Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Tunnels are absolutely dead after 2 pm. You have some people walk through them from 5-530 but after about 6 99% of the workers are gone from downtown.Well there's your answer about downtown retail. And sadly, it all makes sense: the mall at Houston Center has a Jos A Banks but little else in the way of "true" retail, and it should be known that Foley's was losing steam even before the Macy's takeover. Or even why Houston Pavilions was underwhelming in the retail department. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Vik Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Well there's your answer about downtown retail. And sadly, it all makes sense: the mall at Houston Center has a Jos A Banks but little else in the way of "true" retail, and it should be known that Foley's was losing steam even before the Macy's takeover. Or even why Houston Pavilions was underwhelming in the retail department. Phonecia does well even on evenings on weekends, I guess the downtown residents and people around for Rockets games and concerts at House of Blues keep things moving there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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