Walmart Supercenter At 111 Yale St.

[livincinco]

Yale and I-10 are barely 3 miles from Downtown Houston, right off a major entertainment district and between Houston's wealthiest neighborhood, fastest growing rental areas and hotest real estate markets and on the way to the suburbs for hundreds of thousands of Houston commuters. I am not saying that it would be a one to one comparison with City Centre. I am just saying that forward looking development yeilds benefits. City Centre was way ahead of the curve and pushed through the downturn, whereas Walmart is a remnant of suburban development and was a plan B development to cash out after the downturn. Walmart is yeilding minimal development returns in the immediate area while City Centre is hitting it out of the park.

 

I don't agree with you that Yale and I-10 is a better location then City Centre.  City Centre has very close proximity to very wealthy areas, is located at the intersection of two major highways and has the advantage of being a destination for the entire west side of Houston.  As was also pointed out, it has close proximity to the jobs of the Energy Corridor and Memorial City which are both growing rapidly.

 

I don't think that it is by any means a given that City Centre is an equal success if it was located at Yale and I-10.

[TGM]

I don't think that it is by any means a given that City Centre is an equal success if it was located at Yale and I-10.

The Elites would ridicule the national chains that would rent there, moaning that the average Pottery Barn shopper thinks that Yesteryear and Yore are design eras.

Blah,blah,blah, it's never ever going to be good enough for them.

[Ross]

Walmart was able to outbid HEB because of the 380. 

 

I would never believe that without written proof from HEB and WalMart. WalMart can outbid just about everybody, and they were hot to build an Inner Loop location. 380 or not, there's no chance HEB beats WalMart.

[Triton]

http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/blog/breaking-ground/2013/06/moody-ramlin-to-begin-work-on-new.html

 

And this is the difference between what we get and what the rest of Houston gets.  City Centre is spawning lots of redevelopment around the area as a result of maximizing the value of the real estate with a great mixed use development.  Meanwhile, I-10 and Yale St., a much better location, will just be a dumping ground for strip mall retail.

 

Wow, talk about comparing apples to oranges.... and then your statement just keeps getting worse the more you read it.

 

Uh, do you not live in the Heights? Redevelopment is happening on almost every street in the Heights. Abandoned stores are being turned into shops and bars, and abandoned houses are being renovated into livable homes. This Walmart is providing people moving into the Heights area with better selection. If I want something more valuable, I'll go somewhere else. If I want something more locally grown, I'll go to the farmers market on Airline.

 

Dumping ground for strip mall retail?? And then you talking about the City Centre area?? HAHAHA! WOW... Uh, let's compare the amount of strip malls in the City Centre area to the amount of strip malls near this Walmart:

 

 

 

The only valid argument that I would agree with against this Walmart is the amount of traffic that has made driving on Yale unbearable.

 

You'd rather have this property remain abandoned warehouses than see it turned into a Walmart huh...

[Angostura]

Walmart was able to outbid HEB because of the 380. 

 

 

I don't believe this is supported by the facts.

 

That said, the question wasn't Walmart vs. HEB, it was "strip-mall retail" vs mixed use.  An HEB development would have looked substantially similar to what we ended up with.  The Bunker Hill HEB, for example, is 128,000 s.f.; the Walmart is 152,000.  A difference of degree, not kind.

 

Surely a large mixed-use development could have gotten an even larger 380.  The plans I saw had two public ROW's cutting through, which at the $60/s.f. the Ainbinder 380 got for the ROW they gave to the city to extend Koehler, adds up to a lot of $$.

[Leonard]

Ainbinder did not give the ROW to the City, it is reimbursable plus interest under the 380. 

 

[Leonard]

Was Wal-Mart approached by the owner of the property on Yale between I-10 and Washington to buy the land? This is the same property H-E-B was looking at to build a new store along the lines of the one on Bunker Hill. Is the deal done with Wal-Mart? I've heard yes. What does this mean to the likes of our Heights Mom and Pops? What will that do to the traffic patterns on Yale and Washington? Google "Wal Mart parking lot crime" and let us know our thoughts!

 

Actually, this was the question.

[Angostura]

Ainbinder did not give the ROW to the City, it is reimbursable plus interest under the 380. 

 

This is exactly what I said.  The multi-use plans I saw had a much larger potential acquisition of ROW, and therefore a related 380 could have been higher value.

[Leonard]

Ainbinder and Parker said they would build with or without the 380. The 380 provided no value to the public.  They should have built without it. 

 

 

[SilverJK]

But then you wouldn't have scapegoat to complain about the walmart.

[Leonard]

A 380 shouldn't be a requirement to build a freaking grocery or discount store in Houston. The market should determine what gets built. 

 

The City will be getting $150K less per year just in property taxes until the 380 is paid off.  Less money, not more.  And the City still projects a deficit in the current budget. 

 

Ainbinder/Walmart would have been required to do a lot of the stuff in the 380.  Some of the stuff is just idiotic and designed to get the support of one or two people.  Balusters and paint on a bridge that is scheduled for demolition?  Idiotic.  They remove sidewalks and trees and are getting reimbursed for that.  Idiotic.  The jogging trail to nowhere?  Idiotic.  It was a perfectly fine esplanade.  The Parks dept.  didn't even know about it and strongly objected to being required to maintain it, especially in light of the fact that Parks was hard hit with layoffs and budget cuts when that was going on.  Idiotic. 

 

HEB building there would not have required a bigger 380.  Build or don't, if it's your land, do it or not. 

Silver, I really don't care about the Walmart.  I care about the 380.  I'm sorry, I guess I haven't said that  before. 

[SilverJK]

Then quit bringing up walmart... the 380 isn't their fault.  This thread is only about the Walmart invasion.  Stay on topic  (lol  jk, this thread is the walmart of off topic discussion)

[Ross]

The City will be getting $150K less per year just in property taxes until the 380 is paid off.  Less money, not more.  And the City still projects a deficit in the current budget. 

 

Which is far better than laying out all the money up front for the work the city would have been required to do. And, really, is the City getting less in taxes than  before the development? Besides, $150k in the City budget is less than what the Planning Commission wastes on historic district hearings.

[Leonard]

Ross, exactly what do you think the City would have been required to do? 

[s3mh]

Wow, talk about comparing apples to oranges.... and then your statement just keeps getting worse the more you read it.

 

Uh, do you not live in the Heights? Redevelopment is happening on almost every street in the Heights. Abandoned stores are being turned into shops and bars, and abandoned houses are being renovated into livable homes. This Walmart is providing people moving into the Heights area with better selection. If I want something more valuable, I'll go somewhere else. If I want something more locally grown, I'll go to the farmers market on Airline.

 

Dumping ground for strip mall retail?? And then you talking about the City Centre area?? HAHAHA! WOW... Uh, let's compare the amount of strip malls in the City Centre area to the amount of strip malls near this Walmart:

 

 

 

The only valid argument that I would agree with against this Walmart is the amount of traffic that has made driving on Yale unbearable.

 

You'd rather have this property remain abandoned warehouses than see it turned into a Walmart huh...

The amount of new retail and residential in the Heights is not nearly enough to make a dent in the demand on the inner loop in Houston. Also, a lot of the residential redevelopment in the Heights is merely transitional and not new housing. We are just swapping out lower income folks for higher income folks. Large acreage inside the loop, especially between the Heights and Montrose is a precious commodity that has absolutely been squandered with the Walmart development.

The strip malls you triumphantly point out that are located around City Centre mean nothing. Most pre-date City Centre. In fact, the new development I highlighted is replacing a strip center. Also, City Centre is well outside the loop with more abundant and cheap land with highway frontage. That is where strip centers should be. Inside the loop, frontage acreage around the Heights is extremly limited by comparison. Taking @35 acres of open land inside the loop and only doing strip malls/big box and one 280 unit multifamily is the definition of nearsighted development that will be regretted in the long run. But who knows. It took less than ten years before plans were underway to demo Archstone Memorial to make way for midrise multifamily. Maybe we will get lucky and this development will see a similar fate. After 10 years, most strip mall developments in Houston look very tired and lose what little luster they had when they first opened.

[SilverJK]

The strip malls you triumphantly point out that are located around City Centre mean nothing. Most pre-date City Centre.

 

 

Good point...  once these strip centers prove the demand is there, mixed use projects will invest nearby to capitalize on the demand, probably replacing some crappy warehouses or housing.  Maybe we should build a giant hospital near our neighborhood to help drive destination traffic as well.  You kinda left that part out when comparing City Centre to the Yale lot.  How tall is that Memorial Hospital Tower?

[samagon]

Wow, talk about comparing apples to oranges.... and then your statement just keeps getting worse the more you read it.

 

Uh, do you not live in the Heights? Redevelopment is happening on almost every street in the Heights. Abandoned stores are being turned into shops and bars, and abandoned houses are being renovated into livable homes. This Walmart is providing people moving into the Heights area with better selection. If I want something more valuable, I'll go somewhere else. If I want something more locally grown, I'll go to the farmers market on Airline.

 

Dumping ground for strip mall retail?? And then you talking about the City Centre area?? HAHAHA! WOW... Uh, let's compare the amount of strip malls in the City Centre area to the amount of strip malls near this Walmart:

 

 

 

The only valid argument that I would agree with against this Walmart is the amount of traffic that has made driving on Yale unbearable.

 

You'd rather have this property remain abandoned warehouses than see it turned into a Walmart huh...

The amount of new retail and residential in the Heights is not nearly enough to make a dent in the demand on the inner loop in Houston. Also, a lot of the residential redevelopment in the Heights is merely transitional and not new housing. We are just swapping out lower income folks for higher income folks. Large acreage inside the loop, especially between the Heights and Montrose is a precious commodity that has absolutely been squandered with the Walmart development.

The strip malls you triumphantly point out that are located around City Centre mean nothing. Most pre-date City Centre. In fact, the new development I highlighted is replacing a strip center. Also, City Centre is well outside the loop with more abundant and cheap land with highway frontage. That is where strip centers should be. Inside the loop, frontage acreage around the Heights is extremly limited by comparison. Taking @35 acres of open land inside the loop and only doing strip malls/big box and one 280 unit multifamily is the definition of nearsighted development that will be regretted in the long run. But who knows. It took less than ten years before plans were underway to demo Archstone Memorial to make way for midrise multifamily. Maybe we will get lucky and this development will see a similar fate. After 10 years, most strip mall developments in Houston look very tired and lose what little luster they had when they first opened.

You counter yourself in your own post, which is awesome.

[htownproud]

There is still plenty of industrial land on and around Washington if someone wants to build mixed use on it.  

[livincinco]

There is still plenty of industrial land on and around Washington if someone wants to build mixed use on it.  

 

There does seem to be quite a few abandoned warehouses is that area.  Not sure that I would categorize land availability as "extremely limited".

[s3mh]

There is still plenty of industrial land on and around Washington if someone wants to build mixed use on it.  

You will never get a centralized collection of 35 acres around Washington with the same kind of access and location as the Walmart and neighboring sites. In the 1st Ward, the rail splits into two sets of tracks, making it difficult to put together a large development. It is one thing to have RR tracks next to a development. It is another to have the development split in two by tracks. Only way it would happen is if the RR co got paid to abandon the Winter St. tracks. Just don't see that ever happening. The 1st ward industrial will gradually give way to commercial/retail/residential. However, it will be a slow and piecemeal process. There are a lot of inustrial facilities in that area that are not going anywhere any time soon.

[SilverJK]

You will never get a centralized collection of 35 acres around Washington with the same kind of access and location as the Walmart and neighboring sites. In the 1st Ward, the rail splits into two sets of tracks, making it difficult to put together a large development. It is one thing to have RR tracks next to a development. It is another to have the development split in two by tracks. Only way it would happen is if the RR co got paid to abandon the Winter St. tracks. Just don't see that ever happening. The 1st ward industrial will gradually give way to commercial/retail/residential. However, it will be a slow and piecemeal process. There are a lot of inustrial facilities in that area that are not going anywhere any time soon.

 

well since City Centre in its entire suburban style monstrous scope is just at ~ 40 acres...  I don't really think a 35 acre parcel is needed for an urban mixed use development. 

[RedScare]

The 1st ward industrial will gradually give way to commercial/retail/residential. However, it will be a slow and piecemeal process. There are a lot of inustrial facilities in that area that are not going anywhere any time soon.

 

Who wants a master planned development inside the loop anyway? We have plenty of suburban developments if that is your wish. You are rather schizophrenic in your wishes. You bash developers, then turn right around and pine for them. You express disdain for corporate chains, then turn around and praise them as good for the inner loop. Have you not a consistent bone in your body?

[august948]

Who wants a master planned development inside the loop anyway? We have plenty of suburban developments if that is your wish. You are rather schizophrenic in your wishes. You bash developers, then turn right around and pine for them. You express disdain for corporate chains, then turn around and praise them as good for the inner loop. Have you not a consistent bone in your body?

He's repressing a secret longing for suburban amenities.

[livincinco]

So forgive me if I missed something, because I really have no interest in reading all preceding 107 pages of this thread, but I'm trying to figure out when this parcel turned into such an untapped pot of gold.  Isn't this a site that has industrial on a couple of sides of it and borders a railroad track?  Looking at Google maps, it looks like the properties directly across I-10 on the Heights side are DP Dump Truck & Bob Cat Services and a couple of warehouses.  Not exactly screaming mixed use to me.

 

I get that the 380 probably should have been written better, but you guys must have a lot of free time on your hands to get so excited about this.

[SilverJK]

i'm not one for animal cruelty... but its fun to watch them continually beat this imagined dead horse.

[RedScare]

i'm not one for animal cruelty... but its fun to watch them continually beat this imagined dead horse.

 

True. I shouldn't admit that I am trolling these two...but I'm trolling these two. They are the gift that keeps on giving.

[samagon]

There is still plenty of industrial land on and around Washington if someone wants to build mixed use on it.  

You will never get a centralized collection of 35 acres around Washington with the same kind of access ...

I'm sorry, I stopped reading here. I don't think I am misremembering when you said that the Walmart site can't support the kind of traffic Walmart brings, and now you're trying to say the site had a better use as something like city center. Not sure if you've seen the traffic around the town and country area, but it dwarfs the traffic of any Walmart I've ever seen.

I suppose the city would have had to make a bigger 380 to get them to widen Yale to 3 lanes in each direction? I could only imagine how unhappy Leonard would be since they would have had to remove even more trees, and who even knows how many for hydrants would be in the middle of sidewalks!

[TGM]

Golly jeepers, then done got themselves a performance artist at the Walmarts!

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/entertainment/arts-theater/article/Walmart-s-Warhol-has-fans-in-the-shopping-lanes-4624518.php

Your move 19th street. (May I suggest a man juggling electric chain-saws)

[s3mh]

I'm sorry, I stopped reading here. I don't think I am misremembering when you said that the Walmart site can't support the kind of traffic Walmart brings, and now you're trying to say the site had a better use as something like city center. Not sure if you've seen the traffic around the town and country area, but it dwarfs the traffic of any Walmart I've ever seen.I suppose the city would have had to make a bigger 380 to get them to widen Yale to 3 lanes in each direction? I could only imagine how unhappy Leonard would be since they would have had to remove even more trees, and who even knows how many for hydrants would be in the middle of sidewalks!

City Centre made one big mistake in what is otherwise an excellent development. City Centre did not develop a true street grid. Instead, they have a single main boulevard that goes North/South through the development, but no East/West connectivity. As a result, everyone is piled into a single street inside the development. Traffic piles up easily as soon as someone stops to drop someone off, pick someone up or use a valet service. Sugar Land Town Center did a much better job with designing a street grid that flows better and does not have the traffic congestion issue. It is not a volume problem. It is a design problem. And one of the traffic issues with the Walmart development is that it limits street connectivity. The entire west side of the development is a wall. With a mixed-use development, Schuler St. could have connected all the way through to Heights and Bass could have intersected it inside the development to create a street grid instead of having all traffic exit either at Koehler or just before the grade separation.

[samagon]

I'm sorry, I stopped reading here. I don't think I am misremembering when you said that the Walmart site can't support the kind of traffic Walmart brings, and now you're trying to say the site had a better use as something like city center. Not sure if you've seen the traffic around the town and country area, but it dwarfs the traffic of any Walmart I've ever seen.I suppose the city would have had to make a bigger 380 to get them to widen Yale to 3 lanes in each direction? I could only imagine how unhappy Leonard would be since they would have had to remove even more trees, and who even knows how many for hydrants would be in the middle of sidewalks!

City Centre made one big mistake in what is otherwise an excellent development. City Centre did not develop a true street grid. Instead, they have a single main boulevard that goes North/South through the development, but no East/West connectivity. As a result, everyone is piled into a single street inside the development. Traffic piles up easily as soon as someone stops to drop someone off, pick someone up or use a valet service. Sugar Land Town Center did a much better job with designing a street grid that flows better and does not have the traffic congestion issue. It is not a volume problem. It is a design problem. And one of the traffic issues with the Walmart development is that it limits street connectivity. The entire west side of the development is a wall. With a mixed-use development, Schuler St. could have connected all the way through to Heights and Bass could have intersected it inside the development to create a street grid instead of having all traffic exit either at Koehler or just before the grade separation.

In your effort to dodge the point you didn't bother to imagine that anyone else has actually been to city center and knows you're absolutely wrong about the number of ways to get in and out of the place.

Nice effort though.